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Before reading further, please understand that only Zerg can really pull this off, simply because of the rate at which they can spawn drones (kind of like the rate at which they spawn an army). This concept works great in both ZvP and ZvT.
From what I've seen from a lot of Zerg players, a lot of people just love to pump a bazillion drones as fast as they can, only having an army just barely big enough to stop any early harass and pumping out an army just in time to defend against a big attack (particularly vs terran). Don't get me wrong, that is a great strategy when you can balance on that fine line. But I want to introduce(?) people to another concept that could be considered to be on the other end of the spectrum.
Before going further: here is the build order I use. Be advised that I am not the first person to do something like this by a long shot. Pretty sure Sen popularized a similar build, but I could be wrong. Anyways I don't really care 'cause I came up with it before critically watching him (casually watching him without paying much attention in the beta might have had something to do with it, hard to say) :D
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- 14 extractor
- 14 pool
- 16 overlord
- When pool finishes, Queen, Metabolic Boost (take 2 off temporarily), Zerglings (You have 2 larva when pool finishes, 3rd larva coming out very soon, and I go ahead and use the 4th larva for zerglings too). ***Right at this point, if the opponent has not attacked me I immediately control the map for the next 3-5 minutes.**
- 21-23 hatch
- Continue making BOTH zerglings AND drones. I have not found the optimal mixture (It's situational anyway), but half and half is usually fine.
- When your single drone (since you took 2 off after metabolic boost) that has been mining gas brings you to 100 gas, you should also have almost exactly 150 minerals to start your lair (If you don't you probably made 1-2 too few drones). Put 2 more back on gas, and take your second gas around the time your Lair finishes.
- When your Lair finishes, this opener is over and you need to know what they're doing before continuing. If you lose the game after this point, it is only because of the decisions you made after this point. (If they are making air or mass warpgates, make a hydra den. If you are not sure, make a hydra den. Doing Mutalisks can work great from this point, but I'm not a big fan of mutaling unless they're siege tanking me. If they 3rax, go Infestors.) If you're a lot better than your opponent, you can almost always just straight up win the game before this matters with a bunch of speedlings which sounds kind of cheesy but really isn't simply because of your build.
- note: you need at least 80 (120+ micro spikes) apm to do this properly at the higher levels.
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The idea is to pump out a bigger army (speedlings) than your opponent BEFORE spamming drones. Aside from the obvious con of not having quite as much of an economy right away, I feel that everything else about it is a pro (o.O). 1. You have control of the map early game. Your opponent simply cannot walk out of his base early on without serious disappointment. Anyone who tries a premature tier1 attack just gets owned (zealots do ok, but are still pushed back) I honestly can't find any protoss or terran who dare tries to FE when they know what I'm doing. Most of them don't FE anyway though. 2. This doesn't really counter the mass reaper opening, but I have been able to convincingly stop it dead in it's tracks every time it happens to me with all my extra speedlings. 3. Maybe the biggest thing here is that a lot of the current macro zergs will be like "oh shit they're pushing out, if I don't make an army NOW I am dead." Don't get me wrong, you should still do the same thing using this concept, but instead of making an army from almost nothing, you are reinforcing the army that you already have. It's hard to say just how much easier it can be to catch up from a medium army and medium economy vs a big army as opposed to small army and huge income vs a big army (wow this sentence could have been said better as it is really quite important, but I fail). 4. The build order above is incredibly safe. Pretty much the only hole is LIGHTNING fast Air (But if you know they're doing that you can just turn it into a banelings bust) then then you can still get your hydras out before you're too far behind. But you don't even necessarily need to follow the build order above. It is the concept that matters. Make an army so you can safely spam drones. Just try it (And I'm not saying that many of you haven't: if you have any good reasons as to why this doesn't work please enlighten me.)
Sorry I don't have any replays to show you. But I don't want this to turn into "oh well all he needed to do was x" or "he should have just scouted y". This thread's purpose is to discuss the concept of spamming drones AFTER making an "early" army, and just as importantly simply having a bigger army than "normal" at the time when they push out so that the reactionary army isn't alone.
BTW, I understand that pure math says that cutting drones so early should give your opponent a timing push opportunity. It just doesn't seem to work like that if you do this properly when you're ZERG.
Discuss.
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I dont understand the real point of your topic. Basically you suggest a 14pool/14 gas ~21 hatch which is a pretty common standard opening against terran and protoss. Then you say produce 50/50 mix of drones and zerglings. You can do this to stay stafe and gain map control early on but its useless if you dont need more then 2-4 zerglings to hold mapcontrol.
I dont see the point of the thread. If you know when to drone and when not, you shouldnt morph more zerglings then you need. If you dont know when to drone and when not, you can establish rules for yourself that let u play safe. Thats what you did by saying: Im going to do a 50/50 mix of lings/drones.
It looks like you have a good gameplan and you should continue to use it if it works efficient. Against fast lighting air i suggest getting 4-5 queens instead of 2 if your lair is too late. They totally rape air, if you heal at the right time, youll need them later anyway for your third and fourth base, you can heal spinecrawlers, you can spread creep early on and you can use them as a healing station. I find this especially useful for healing mutas after they harassed so you wont loose them or if they survived till lategame for ultralisks.
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You can do this to stay stafe and gain map control early on but its useless if you dont need more then 2-4 zerglings to hold mapcontrol. This is the general assumption of zerg players right now. My point is that they CAN matter, and often do if done properly.
you shouldnt morph more zerglings then you need. Not needing them now doesn't mean that you won't need them later. And when you do need them later, it's better to already have some and make more than to have almost none and make more.
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The thing is that this keeps you really safe in the early/mid game. If i'm not mistaken, zergs are really strong if they can survive the early/mid game.
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Hmm...maybe you're finding success with this because P/T aren't used to encountring resistance before they decide to move out, and you catch them off guard with your equal/larger army before they're ready. Once you reduce both army sizes, you're effectively "safe", because any attack they could mount with the limited units they have could easily be countered by a round of lings. It's an interesting style that I think has its merits over the traditional, passive zerg that basically gives up map control once enemy units come on the field to kill the lings at the watchtowers, but also has its disadvantages in that your midgame is probably a bit slower.
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Hmm...maybe you're finding success with this because P/T aren't used to encountring resistance before they decide to move out, and you catch them off guard with your equal/larger army before they're ready. Once you reduce both army sizes, you're effectively "safe", because any attack they could mount with the limited units they have could easily be countered by a round of lings. It's an interesting style that I think has its merits over the traditional, passive zerg that basically gives up map control once enemy units come on the field to kill the lings at the watchtowers, but also has its disadvantages in that your midgame is probably a bit slower Exactly. But I would also like to argue that my late game comes out at the same time if not sooner.
I say this because Infestor pit is really just a great thing to have after having a bunch of speedlings, which makes me not have to worry about making an infestor pit before putting up my hive I can just throw up the Hive when I can afford to. I really like getting out early ultralisks against terran when I do this, if it gets to that point the game is pretty much over.
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Well that's no fun if we just go around agreeing with each other....would you say that your midgame indeed seems slower?
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hehe see above i edited
and honestly I have a hard time comparing because I had a hard time pulling off the "traditional" style. If I'm not mistaken, so is most everyone else. :D
BTW It has come to my attention that this is kind of a compromise between "american" and "korean" styles. From what I understand, they love to pump out lots of extra early units and hell they don't stop there they just straight up try to kill the person at that point. (And zerg isnt considered underpowered over there).
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If you want to make x zerglings and y drones by a certain point in time, it's always better to make the drones first.
In other words, it's always best to make as few units as you can to defend. The hard part is knowing eactly what you can get away with.
In terms of winning a particular game, it's probably best to err on the side of making units but in terms of getting better as a player, it's better to ride that thin line as closely as possible.
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Post replays. I promise I won't say any of the things you said not to say.
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If you want to make x xerglings and y drones by a certain point in time, it's always better to make the drones first. More efficient, yes. Safer?
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Before I became kind-of good, I used to use the extreme of your statement. I would spam drones, tech up while spamming drones, expand, spam drones, then like at X point in the game I have way more of Y unit than you could possibly have doing a standard build. That was very, very dangerous. From what I understand of current zerg style, it is very dangerous in the same way. This cuts more drones to keep you even safer.
The other races really don't have an option to do this. Spam SCV's from one CC. Keep Spamming. Expand. Tech. More SCV's. Expand. Wtf kind of Terran or protoss ever does this? none of em. Just because you CAN make drones with almost every one of your larva doesnt mean you should. Go look at almost any replay with a zerg player who does this. Pause it pretty much anywhere from 3 to 6 minutes into the game. The P/T player is already working on an army. Sure the Zerg has two sets of larva injections that can be used if they see the Terran move out, but that's really nothing compared to what the P/T can do to back it up with.
It's really quite uncanny in a lot of my matches, a push that would normally just straight up kill me when I try the full macro style exactly loses to the extra zerglings I make like this.
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The big thing missing from the build is the roach warren. Sen uses it, Zenio uses it. They use a general "speedling expand" build, but they have the roach warren there as a panic button so they can spawn a round of roaches if they need to. This tends to go down around the time the 2nd expand comes up, and delays the lair a bit - but is really necessary as this build dies to zealot cheese and a few other things.
Otherwise this build is awesome and pretty much a standard in most Asian replays I've seen lately.
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The big thing missing from the build is the roach warren. Sen uses it, Zenio uses it. They use a general "speedling expand" build, but they have the roach warren there as a panic button so they can spawn a round of roaches if they need to. This tends to go down around the time the 2nd expand comes up, and delays the lair a bit - but is really necessary as this build dies to zealot cheese and a few other things.
Otherwise this build is awesome and pretty much a standard in most Asian replays I've seen lately. About the zealot cheese thing - that is kind-of a good thing for protoss to do. But honestly I wouldn't say that it "counters" it. I end up dead-even against the few protosses that have tried to (and I think a 10 zergling runby to their mineral line if they try to move out can be very effective, even if they leave 1 zealot to block).
The way I make up for the roach den I guess is just having a whole shitload of zerglings. Before you pump out your lair and right when your expansion comes up, you can do some of the craziest zergling production possible at that point in the game. You're probably right about the roach den in really high levels of play, but I seem to get away without one pretty easily.
Otherwise this build is awesome and pretty much a standard in most Asian replays I've seen lately. Cool. Just watch them sooch they're probably better than me :D
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I think this might be a good build for noobs like myself who often lose because they lack the subtle skill to minimax respond to early enemy pushes (i.e. pros know how to waste just enough money to defend the attack without losing, noobs generally miscalculate or their micro isn't good enough to hold with the amount of units for defense we see used it replays). I will give it a shot + the roach warren @ ~22
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On September 05 2010 07:11 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +If you want to make x xerglings and y drones by a certain point in time, it's always better to make the drones first. More efficient, yes. Safer? ... Before I became kind-of good, I used to use the extreme of your statement. I would spam drones, tech up while spamming drones, expand, spam drones, then like at X point in the game I have way more of Y unit than you could possibly have doing a standard build. That was very, very dangerous. From what I understand of current zerg style, it is very dangerous in the same way. This cuts more drones to keep you even safer. The other races really don't have an option to do this. Spam SCV's from one CC. Keep Spamming. Expand. Tech. More SCV's. Expand. Wtf kind of Terran or protoss ever does this? none of em. Just because you CAN make drones with almost every one of your larva doesnt mean you should. Go look at almost any replay with a zerg player who does this. Pause it pretty much anywhere from 3 to 6 minutes into the game. The P/T player is already working on an army. Sure the Zerg has two sets of larva injections that can be used if they see the Terran move out, but that's really nothing compared to what the P/T can do to back it up with. It's really quite uncanny in a lot of my matches, a push that would normally just straight up kill me when I try the full macro style exactly loses to the extra zerglings I make like this.
You're just delaying drones. If can get away without the lings, don't you think it's better?
Now you are noting you want the lings out the moment they leave their base, but I do not see the point of it. Zerg is best at fighting in the open field. The thing is, you should have a ling at their base to see when they move out, and at that moment swarm lings (and a few roaches). You can then kill off the attack (if done correctly) with about the same losses because it should be about the same number of lings you have with your build. However, the drone pumping build will have had more drones quicker, so it will be at the same spot but economically ahead.
Not to mention the other perks. The drone pumping style puts the engagement on your turf. This means creep. You could have built a spine crawler instead of 3 lings, so now you're a drone ahead. Roaches early game 10x more efficient on creep, so you can count the lings you didn't have to build as more drones. It just all adds up to saying it's better to engage on your creep and built up right before it comes.
The last reason why I have to disagree with your style is because you're building units without a purpose. Those early lings, what are their purpose? They sit in front of the enemy base. You know you cannot attack because he has forcefield and repair. 2-4 lings is enough to see any movement outside of his base. What are the extra 8-10 lings doing? Not looking scary, because that many lings doesn't look scary. If you do have enough to look scary, then you didn't build any drones and he will just tech to air and kill you. So what are they doing? Answer is, they didn't need to be there.
Yes, you can play safer than many other drone pumpers, but remember that it's really to play safe but doesn't give an economic advantage nor much of a strategic advantage early game. How safe should you play? Well, that depends on how much you trust your scouting abilities and your ability to properly macro (if you're supply blocked when you see them begin to move out when you did a drone pump, or if you missed a spawn larvae, you can just gg).
The big idea is: the safer drone pumping isn't "better", but it stops you from getting some stupid losses.
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On September 05 2010 07:11 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +If you want to make x xerglings and y drones by a certain point in time, it's always better to make the drones first. More efficient, yes. Safer?
There is no 'Safer'. There is 'not safe' and 'safe'. If you are safe and you are producing more units then those units are useless unless you are using them to win immediately. Otherwise, you should have been making more drones because that ensures you are better off later.
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You're just delaying drones. If can get away without the lings, don't you think it's better? not always.
Now you are noting you want the lings out the moment they leave their base, but I do not see the point of it. Zerg is best at fighting in the open field. So you're saying if you want to fight them out in the open field, it's ok to not start making units until they're entering the field?
You can then kill off the attack (if done correctly) with about the same losses because it should be about the same number of lings you have with your build No. Just no. This is where I highlight the problem with such logic. Sure, in theory you have more minerals and therefore can make more zerglings. But zerglings do not cost only minerals. They also cost Larva. If you spend your LARVA on zerglings before you need them AND when you need them, you will most certainly have more zerglings than had you only made zerglings right when you needed them. And yes, you do have the money to spam all the extra zerglings with the build I said. Plenty of money.
Not to mention the other perks. The drone pumping style puts the engagement on your turf. This means creep. You could have built a spine crawler instead of 3 lings, so now you're a drone ahead. Roaches early game 10x more efficient on creep, so you can count the lings you didn't have to build as more drones. It just all adds up to saying it's better to engage on your creep and built up right before it comes. You're pretty confusing bro. The last paragraph I quoted you say that you want to fight in the open field, but now you're saying you want to fight in your base. The thing is, I haven't said either. ......
The last reason why I have to disagree with your style is because you're building units without a purpose. Those early lings, what are their purpose? They sit in front of the enemy base. You know you cannot attack because he has forcefield and repair. 2-4 lings is enough to see any movement outside of his base. What are the extra 8-10 lings doing? Not looking scary, because that many lings doesn't look scary. If you do have enough to look scary, then you didn't build any drones and he will just tech to air and kill you. So what are they doing? Answer is, they didn't need to be there. Purpose.... ? Are you even reading the thread? Not looking scary? Sure. It tells them they can just sit in their base for the next few minutes. But guess what, it also tells you that you can do the same thing. The same thing as in pumping workers. Do the other races pump workers better than zerg? (hint: no) Tech to air and kill me? You have no idea of the timings of my build do you? Lol. I actually get a relatively fast Lair. You do realize that people better than me use this against people that are better than me WITH throwing in a roach warren that slows down your anti-air, right?
Yes, you can play safer than many other drone pumpers, but remember that it's really to play safe but doesn't give an economic advantage nor much of a strategic advantage early game. Well maybe you did read it. But did you really think about it?
Well, that depends on how much you trust your scouting abilities and your ability to properly macro (if you're supply blocked when you see them begin to move out when you did a drone pump, or if you missed a spawn larvae, you can just gg). And that differs from other builds.... how?
The big idea is: the safer drone pumping isn't "better", but it stops you from getting some stupid losses. Preventing you from stupid losses is clearly worse?
unless you are using them to win immediately. Wrong! This is just so wrong. I understand why everyone thinks this and even I did at one point. It's just wrong (and kinda fundamentally the point of this post).
Otherwise, you should have been making more drones because that ensures you are better off later. Yes later. Let me define later for you: at least 2 minutes from now. During those two minutes, you could have been SAFELY pumping drones. And during those 2 minutes if you were instead drone pumping you could have been attacked, even though you could have already had lings.
The thing that I really get from all of this is why everyone thinks Zerg is a "reactionary" race. You sit back, and you sit back. They have an army and you do not, therefore you have to react to their army. But when you get out extra lings early, YOU take the ball and you roll it around. You control the pace of the game. They are countering YOU which means you can counter their counter instead of simply countering.
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UNLESS you are actively using the early extra zerglings to do runbys, etc, you're pretty much wrong. The best way to play zerg is to make the minimal amount of defense possible to hold, while pumping maximum amount of drones. Hard part is knowing the minimum.
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Wouldn't spine crawlers provide the same type of defence for about the same price but you save the extra larva? You don't get map control, but you get a huge economy and it will take him a while to be able to kill 3 spines. And if you see that he is coming then you can always make lings
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UNLESS you are actively using the early extra zerglings to do runbys, etc, you're pretty much wrong. The best way to play zerg is to make the minimal amount of defense possible to hold, while pumping maximum amount of drones. Hard part is knowing the minimum. It's a lot easier to reach the minimum when you have extra zerglings floating around (easier = worse?). And well against Terran and Protoss they don't exactly LET you do runbys, and if they do they suck and the game doesnt matter. By "etc" I assume you mean running them up the ramp momentarily to see what they built near it and grabbing all the watch towers. Yes, I do that.
Wouldn't spine crawlers provide the same type of defence for about the same price but you save the extra larva? You don't get map control, but you get a huge economy and it will take him a while to be able to kill 3 spines. And if you see that he is coming then you can always make lings. The difference is that my way you completely deny them any possibility of a FE (or even moving out of their base too early for that matter). You spent a drone and a larva on that spine crawler too btw.
I understand that it delays my mining a little bit, but you guys seem to think that I just can't afford to pump all the zerglings you can potentially make when your second hatch comes up and still expect to flow through it (I just remembered you're supposed to have a second queen ready for the expansion when it comes up). I assure you you can completely stop drone production at 16 and go straight into mass 2hatch zerglings all-in and have plenty of money. Saying money is an issue for this build is exactly like saying having an army is an issue for the traditional build.
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On September 05 2010 08:28 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +You're just delaying drones. If can get away without the lings, don't you think it's better? not always. Show nested quote +Now you are noting you want the lings out the moment they leave their base, but I do not see the point of it. Zerg is best at fighting in the open field. So you're saying if you want to fight them out in the open field, it's ok to not start making units until they're entering the field? Show nested quote +You can then kill off the attack (if done correctly) with about the same losses because it should be about the same number of lings you have with your build No. Just no. This is where I highlight the problem with such logic. Sure, in theory you have more minerals and therefore can make more zerglings. But zerglings do not cost only minerals. They also cost Larva. If you spend your LARVA on zerglings before you need them AND when you need them, you will most certainly have more zerglings than had you only made zerglings right when you needed them. And yes, you do have the money to spam all the extra zerglings with the build I said. Plenty of money. Show nested quote +Not to mention the other perks. The drone pumping style puts the engagement on your turf. This means creep. You could have built a spine crawler instead of 3 lings, so now you're a drone ahead. Roaches early game 10x more efficient on creep, so you can count the lings you didn't have to build as more drones. It just all adds up to saying it's better to engage on your creep and built up right before it comes. You're pretty confusing bro. The last paragraph I quoted you say that you want to fight in the open field, but now you're saying you want to fight in your base. The thing is, I haven't said either. ...... Show nested quote +The last reason why I have to disagree with your style is because you're building units without a purpose. Those early lings, what are their purpose? They sit in front of the enemy base. You know you cannot attack because he has forcefield and repair. 2-4 lings is enough to see any movement outside of his base. What are the extra 8-10 lings doing? Not looking scary, because that many lings doesn't look scary. If you do have enough to look scary, then you didn't build any drones and he will just tech to air and kill you. So what are they doing? Answer is, they didn't need to be there. Purpose.... ? Are you even reading the thread? Not looking scary? Sure. It tells them they can just sit in their base for the next few minutes. But guess what, it also tells you that you can do the same thing. The same thing as in pumping workers. Do the other races pump workers better than zerg? (hint: no) Tech to air and kill me? You have no idea of the timings of my build do you? Lol. I actually get a relatively fast Lair. You do realize that people better than me use this against people that are better than me WITH throwing in a roach warren that slows down your anti-air, right? Show nested quote +Yes, you can play safer than many other drone pumpers, but remember that it's really to play safe but doesn't give an economic advantage nor much of a strategic advantage early game. Well maybe you did read it. But did you really think about it? Show nested quote +Well, that depends on how much you trust your scouting abilities and your ability to properly macro (if you're supply blocked when you see them begin to move out when you did a drone pump, or if you missed a spawn larvae, you can just gg). And that differs from other builds.... how? Show nested quote +The big idea is: the safer drone pumping isn't "better", but it stops you from getting some stupid losses. Preventing you from stupid losses is clearly worse? Wrong! This is just so wrong. I understand why everyone thinks this and even I did at one point. It's just wrong (and kinda fundamentally the point of this post). Show nested quote +Otherwise, you should have been making more drones because that ensures you are better off later. Yes later. Let me define later for you: at least 2 minutes from now. During those two minutes, you could have been SAFELY pumping drones. And during those 2 minutes if you were instead drone pumping you could have been attacked, even though you could have already had lings. The thing that I really get from all of this is why everyone thinks Zerg is a "reactionary" race. You sit back, and you sit back. They have an army and you do not, therefore you have to react to their army. But when you get out extra lings early, YOU take the ball and you roll it around. You control the pace of the game. They are countering YOU which means you can counter their counter instead of simply countering.
You will have the larvae if you macro. Your base should be set up so it's open you can get a surround. Have your lings set, some outside, some inside. Set up a spine crawler. That is the best place to hit: a nice open spot right in front of your base where your good macro placed down a lot of creep, can get a lot of surrounds, have a few spine crawlers close by, and can reinforce quickly. Now does the location make sense?
"Yes later. Let me define later for you: at least 2 minutes from now. During those two minutes, you could have been SAFELY pumping drones. And during those 2 minutes if you were instead drone pumping you could have been attacked, even though you could have already had lings. "
2 minutes earlier, you could've been pumping drones. If you saw the attack coming, then you would have switched to lings so it's just as safe.
"The thing that I really get from all of this is why everyone thinks Zerg is a "reactionary" race. You sit back, and you sit back. They have an army and you do not, therefore you have to react to their army. But when you get out extra lings early, YOU take the ball and you roll it around. You control the pace of the game. They are countering YOU which means you can counter their counter instead of simply countering."
This is all "So what? Who cares?". Both Tarrans and Protoss know you cannot hurt them. They see the lings. "So what? I have forcefield. I have zealots blocking". There is no "Oh crap, I've gotta make zealots", it's just a "hey, he made some lings. Sup lings. I'm still safe". He doesn't have to react at all, there's no tension. The only reaction he could do is get a few more zealots which is not beneficial to you. It's not the same as "oh crap, he has hellions" because hellions can hurt you. Your few lings outside his base cannot hurt him. Don't believe the difference? Play Protoss for a bit, and you will be happy every single time you see 14 lings come to your 2 zealot block and think "sweet, I'm ahead and I didn't have to do anything!"
The most I can say it, what some top level Zerg games from Idra and the like, and just analyze it. Especially Idra. He drone pumps, but is safe by making lings and roaches the moment the push is coming. Maybe a spine crawler early, but none of this "get a ball". Try to understand what they are doing. I think the main difference you will see is just that Idra has better macro, and therefore has the larvae for the zerglings at the right time. That's why it works better for him than it did for you. That's why most of us should play a little safer than he does.
However, to think that those early lings give you more of an advantage is the part that's not correct. Just because a prevents you from stupid losses doesn't mean a build is better. Clearly, a 10 pool would be a much better build than a 14 pool if you'd like that because it stops cheese cold. But what we have to do is go "ok, theoretically (and practically if done correctly) a 14 pool stops the cheese rushes that would occur at that time, and it also puts me in a better position economically, therefore the 14 pool is the better build". Building the lings at the last second to stop those early pushes is theoretically possible. Idra does it all the time. Since he can stop the same early pushes, his build is just as safe as yours, but it has a better economy, and is therefore a better build. The problem with drone pumping in the early game is not that it's not safe, it's that it can be hard to pull off correctly and can lead to some stupid losses of you just messing up.
PS: Throwing down the roach warren doesn't slow down the anti-air. Making the roaches does. Since they are making the roaches at the last second, they can go Lair upgrade then roach. However, it's safe play that goes roach then Lair upgrade, and that's why it would get delayed.
PPS: Your defense of saying "Did you really read it?" doesn't get anywhere. Did you really think about your build? Come on, please be more mannered and be delighted someone has decided to give a constructive argument against your build. That's why you posted here, isn't it?
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