EPT[D] Safe Drone Pumping
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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peon.power
Germany43 Posts
I dont see the point of the thread. If you know when to drone and when not, you shouldnt morph more zerglings then you need. If you dont know when to drone and when not, you can establish rules for yourself that let u play safe. Thats what you did by saying: Im going to do a 50/50 mix of lings/drones. It looks like you have a good gameplan and you should continue to use it if it works efficient. Against fast lighting air i suggest getting 4-5 queens instead of 2 if your lair is too late. They totally rape air, if you heal at the right time, youll need them later anyway for your third and fourth base, you can heal spinecrawlers, you can spread creep early on and you can use them as a healing station. I find this especially useful for healing mutas after they harassed so you wont loose them or if they survived till lategame for ultralisks. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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csfield
United States206 Posts
In other words, it's always best to make as few units as you can to defend. The hard part is knowing eactly what you can get away with. In terms of winning a particular game, it's probably best to err on the side of making units but in terms of getting better as a player, it's better to ride that thin line as closely as possible. | ||
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
Otherwise this build is awesome and pretty much a standard in most Asian replays I've seen lately. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 05 2010 07:11 Barrin wrote: More efficient, yes. Safer? ... Before I became kind-of good, I used to use the extreme of your statement. I would spam drones, tech up while spamming drones, expand, spam drones, then like at X point in the game I have way more of Y unit than you could possibly have doing a standard build. That was very, very dangerous. From what I understand of current zerg style, it is very dangerous in the same way. This cuts more drones to keep you even safer. The other races really don't have an option to do this. Spam SCV's from one CC. Keep Spamming. Expand. Tech. More SCV's. Expand. Wtf kind of Terran or protoss ever does this? none of em. Just because you CAN make drones with almost every one of your larva doesnt mean you should. Go look at almost any replay with a zerg player who does this. Pause it pretty much anywhere from 3 to 6 minutes into the game. The P/T player is already working on an army. Sure the Zerg has two sets of larva injections that can be used if they see the Terran move out, but that's really nothing compared to what the P/T can do to back it up with. It's really quite uncanny in a lot of my matches, a push that would normally just straight up kill me when I try the full macro style exactly loses to the extra zerglings I make like this. You're just delaying drones. If can get away without the lings, don't you think it's better? Now you are noting you want the lings out the moment they leave their base, but I do not see the point of it. Zerg is best at fighting in the open field. The thing is, you should have a ling at their base to see when they move out, and at that moment swarm lings (and a few roaches). You can then kill off the attack (if done correctly) with about the same losses because it should be about the same number of lings you have with your build. However, the drone pumping build will have had more drones quicker, so it will be at the same spot but economically ahead. Not to mention the other perks. The drone pumping style puts the engagement on your turf. This means creep. You could have built a spine crawler instead of 3 lings, so now you're a drone ahead. Roaches early game 10x more efficient on creep, so you can count the lings you didn't have to build as more drones. It just all adds up to saying it's better to engage on your creep and built up right before it comes. The last reason why I have to disagree with your style is because you're building units without a purpose. Those early lings, what are their purpose? They sit in front of the enemy base. You know you cannot attack because he has forcefield and repair. 2-4 lings is enough to see any movement outside of his base. What are the extra 8-10 lings doing? Not looking scary, because that many lings doesn't look scary. If you do have enough to look scary, then you didn't build any drones and he will just tech to air and kill you. So what are they doing? Answer is, they didn't need to be there. Yes, you can play safer than many other drone pumpers, but remember that it's really to play safe but doesn't give an economic advantage nor much of a strategic advantage early game. How safe should you play? Well, that depends on how much you trust your scouting abilities and your ability to properly macro (if you're supply blocked when you see them begin to move out when you did a drone pump, or if you missed a spawn larvae, you can just gg). The big idea is: the safer drone pumping isn't "better", but it stops you from getting some stupid losses. | ||
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Cyclon
United States99 Posts
There is no 'Safer'. There is 'not safe' and 'safe'. If you are safe and you are producing more units then those units are useless unless you are using them to win immediately. Otherwise, you should have been making more drones because that ensures you are better off later. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 05 2010 08:28 Barrin wrote: not always. So you're saying if you want to fight them out in the open field, it's ok to not start making units until they're entering the field? No. Just no. This is where I highlight the problem with such logic. Sure, in theory you have more minerals and therefore can make more zerglings. But zerglings do not cost only minerals. They also cost Larva. If you spend your LARVA on zerglings before you need them AND when you need them, you will most certainly have more zerglings than had you only made zerglings right when you needed them. And yes, you do have the money to spam all the extra zerglings with the build I said. Plenty of money. You're pretty confusing bro. The last paragraph I quoted you say that you want to fight in the open field, but now you're saying you want to fight in your base. The thing is, I haven't said either. ...... Purpose.... ? Are you even reading the thread? Not looking scary? Sure. It tells them they can just sit in their base for the next few minutes. But guess what, it also tells you that you can do the same thing. The same thing as in pumping workers. Do the other races pump workers better than zerg? (hint: no) Tech to air and kill me? You have no idea of the timings of my build do you? Lol. I actually get a relatively fast Lair. You do realize that people better than me use this against people that are better than me WITH throwing in a roach warren that slows down your anti-air, right? Well maybe you did read it. But did you really think about it? And that differs from other builds.... how? Preventing you from stupid losses is clearly worse? Wrong! This is just so wrong. I understand why everyone thinks this and even I did at one point. It's just wrong (and kinda fundamentally the point of this post). Yes later. Let me define later for you: at least 2 minutes from now. During those two minutes, you could have been SAFELY pumping drones. And during those 2 minutes if you were instead drone pumping you could have been attacked, even though you could have already had lings. The thing that I really get from all of this is why everyone thinks Zerg is a "reactionary" race. You sit back, and you sit back. They have an army and you do not, therefore you have to react to their army. But when you get out extra lings early, YOU take the ball and you roll it around. You control the pace of the game. They are countering YOU which means you can counter their counter instead of simply countering. You will have the larvae if you macro. Your base should be set up so it's open you can get a surround. Have your lings set, some outside, some inside. Set up a spine crawler. That is the best place to hit: a nice open spot right in front of your base where your good macro placed down a lot of creep, can get a lot of surrounds, have a few spine crawlers close by, and can reinforce quickly. Now does the location make sense? "Yes later. Let me define later for you: at least 2 minutes from now. During those two minutes, you could have been SAFELY pumping drones. And during those 2 minutes if you were instead drone pumping you could have been attacked, even though you could have already had lings. " 2 minutes earlier, you could've been pumping drones. If you saw the attack coming, then you would have switched to lings so it's just as safe. "The thing that I really get from all of this is why everyone thinks Zerg is a "reactionary" race. You sit back, and you sit back. They have an army and you do not, therefore you have to react to their army. But when you get out extra lings early, YOU take the ball and you roll it around. You control the pace of the game. They are countering YOU which means you can counter their counter instead of simply countering." This is all "So what? Who cares?". Both Tarrans and Protoss know you cannot hurt them. They see the lings. "So what? I have forcefield. I have zealots blocking". There is no "Oh crap, I've gotta make zealots", it's just a "hey, he made some lings. Sup lings. I'm still safe". He doesn't have to react at all, there's no tension. The only reaction he could do is get a few more zealots which is not beneficial to you. It's not the same as "oh crap, he has hellions" because hellions can hurt you. Your few lings outside his base cannot hurt him. Don't believe the difference? Play Protoss for a bit, and you will be happy every single time you see 14 lings come to your 2 zealot block and think "sweet, I'm ahead and I didn't have to do anything!" The most I can say it, what some top level Zerg games from Idra and the like, and just analyze it. Especially Idra. He drone pumps, but is safe by making lings and roaches the moment the push is coming. Maybe a spine crawler early, but none of this "get a ball". Try to understand what they are doing. I think the main difference you will see is just that Idra has better macro, and therefore has the larvae for the zerglings at the right time. That's why it works better for him than it did for you. That's why most of us should play a little safer than he does. However, to think that those early lings give you more of an advantage is the part that's not correct. Just because a prevents you from stupid losses doesn't mean a build is better. Clearly, a 10 pool would be a much better build than a 14 pool if you'd like that because it stops cheese cold. But what we have to do is go "ok, theoretically (and practically if done correctly) a 14 pool stops the cheese rushes that would occur at that time, and it also puts me in a better position economically, therefore the 14 pool is the better build". Building the lings at the last second to stop those early pushes is theoretically possible. Idra does it all the time. Since he can stop the same early pushes, his build is just as safe as yours, but it has a better economy, and is therefore a better build. The problem with drone pumping in the early game is not that it's not safe, it's that it can be hard to pull off correctly and can lead to some stupid losses of you just messing up. PS: Throwing down the roach warren doesn't slow down the anti-air. Making the roaches does. Since they are making the roaches at the last second, they can go Lair upgrade then roach. However, it's safe play that goes roach then Lair upgrade, and that's why it would get delayed. PPS: Your defense of saying "Did you really read it?" doesn't get anywhere. Did you really think about your build? Come on, please be more mannered and be delighted someone has decided to give a constructive argument against your build. That's why you posted here, isn't it? | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 05 2010 08:44 Barrin wrote: The difference is that my way you completely deny them any possibility of a FE (or even moving out of their base too early for that matter). You spent a drone and a larva on that spine crawler too btw. I understand that it delays my mining a little bit, but you guys seem to think that I just can't afford to pump all the zerglings you can potentially make when your second hatch comes up and still expect to flow through it (I just remembered you're supposed to have a second queen ready for the expansion when it comes up). I assure you you can completely stop drone production at 16 and go straight into mass 2hatch zerglings all-in and have plenty of money. Saying money is an issue for this build is exactly like saying having an army is an issue for the traditional build. Two problems. The first part is that is the first circumstance. If you are denying an FE and the player knew about your "map control" with your lings, then he just made a poor decision. By seeing those lings, he should have recognized that he already had an economic advantage and gone for a tech advantage. The second thing is that you have a false sense of an economy with that build. You will get a lot of minerals, but your economy is dead (or if not the all-in version, at least it's lower than what it could have been). You get minerals because zerglings are cheap. However, with so few drones, a transition to anything else will be much tougher. The biggest problem is that with so few drones you won't be able to saturate gas, and therefore instead of having a surge of 8+ mutalisks when your spire finishes, you will have a few. If you do saturate gas, then your mineral income will be lacking significantly. You can catch up in the drone count, but you cannot catchup in lost mining time. I have read your post, and yes I have thought about it. However, have you tested your build in YABOT to see at what time your build will have a fully saturated natural, 8 mutalisks, and 30 lings and compared it to someone like Idra's? It will be behind guaranteed due to the lost mining time. You just cannot get around the fact that at any moment in the game you will have theoretically a few less minerals for each ling built before drone which you could have switched around to drone before ling. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 05 2010 08:44 Barrin wrote: [By "etc" I assume you mean running them up the ramp momentarily to see what they built near it and grabbing all the watch towers. Yes, I do that. That takes no more than 4 lings. If you scout up the ramp with any more (why not just use 1?) they will just be force fielded and picked off. 4 will pick off any T1 unit at a watch tower without a loss of a ling when properly microed. | ||
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Cyclon
United States99 Posts
The thing that I really get from all of this is why everyone thinks Zerg is a "reactionary" race. You sit back, and you sit back. They have an army and you do not, therefore you have to react to their army. But when you get out extra lings early, YOU take the ball and you roll it around. You control the pace of the game. They are countering YOU which means you can counter their counter instead of simply countering. The problem is that if you play like this then you are weaker then your enemy and you should be playing either terran or protoss instead of zerg. Zerg's main advantage is to be able to quickly make an army faster then the other race. Their disadvantage is that they need more economy to do it. You are sacrificing your economic advantage to do... what? Have the biggest army? That's nice, but it doesn't matter unless you are able to do something with it. And, 99% of the time, you aren't. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Something else is that making stuff at the last minute can easily screw you over. If for some reason, when he pushes out, he has more stuff than you can handle with a single round of ling production, you are now dead. If for some reason, you dont have larva when he pushes out, you are dead. Now you can probably scout better to know exactly how much stuff he has, but for a lot of players, thats pretty hard. About the second one though, I have simply no idea how you can pull it off to always have available larva in case he pushes out, without actually wasting larva. From 2 bases, you can have a maximum of 4 stockpiled larva before they start being wasted. How the hell do you manage to have more than 4 larva at any given time without sitting on idle hatcheries, is a complete mystery to me. Thus this build is better suited for someone like me. Also, another thing, is that players dont have equal skills (duh). Certain builds need different skills compared to others. I would say on most things, there is a skill requirement, and proably a skill cap too. For example, if you are going 5 rax reaper against zerg, a requirement would be to know how to kite. Otherwise, you will just die. For the "build all your shit at the last possible second" build, some requirements would be good macro, fast reaction time, good scouting, good knowledge of your opponent's builds, good micro (to hold it off with the bare minimum), and the mysterious ability to always have larva available. Now lets say that you miss one of those skills. For example scouting. You dont scout very well, and so you never really know when your opponent is pushing out, and with what/how many units until he is already outside his natural. Then going for the "build all your shit at the last possible second" style is quite dumb. You will get destroyed repeatedly. "work on your scouting then!" you say. Sure. But whats the point of doing it in a build where you will lose all the time because of your scouting? You could go for something slightly different, and still be working on your scouting, but also winning games at the same time. Much more enjoyable. There is really not much point in using a build that has a skill requirement that you dont have. It will most often just cause you to lose repeatedly, and become frustrated. And at last, Id like to take a look at one huge assumption that people have been making all thread long: The fact that the best thing for zerg is to have barely enough units to hold off an attack, and all the rest as drone, because you cant make up for lost mining time. To a certain extent, thats true. However, I think it fails to account for a few other factors. For example, the fact that the more units you have, the less you lose. For example, if you have 10 marines attacking you, and you make the lowest amount of lings you possibly can to counter that. If its the lowest amount possible, then you will lose almost all of them. But if you have more units, then you also lose less units. For example, against 10 marines attacking you, you can probably hold it off with 15 lings. But if you have 20 lings, and 5 roaches, instead of having 15 lings, you will end up losing a much smaller amount of lings. Thus, by having more units than the smallest possible amount, you saved yourself money, larva, and time. If you a protoss for example attacks you, and expands at the same time. If you have the bare amount of units, you can hold off his attack, and probably be ahead in economy. But if you have more units, and instead of just barely holding off his attack, you completely crush it, and then counterattack, and deny his expo... Well that puts you in quite a fantastic shape too. Now if you can pull off the drone only defense, making units at the last defense, and feel safe about it, and enjoy the passive laid back macro style from that, I see no reason at all to switch to a different build. Move along. But if you enjoy playing a little more aggressive, if you want to crush his push instead of just stop it, or if you just cant pull off the drone till the last moment defense style, then you should at least consider playing something else, that will allow you to have more fun, or win more, or both. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
Secondly, by the time the confrontation happens, your army should be about the size it would have been if you were playing aggressive. I think some of the best things to show is are some BW PvZs since I cannot think off the top of my head of a great replay of doing this, but speedlings can help you stall a push. I know Idra will play with the speedlings and if an all-in is coming, will get a lot of roaches out just in time by stalling with lings. I think Sen has been doing that a lot too. Game one of Cella vs Lz (I think it was Lz) showed that too vs some early reapers. That gets you to win battles pretty one sidedly and have the economy, but it's tough to pull off and if you mess up you can lose your expo before everything pops. Thirdly, about how many lings are you talking about? I know it's pretty standard to make 4-6, so with your safe build I was assuming you were doing something like 12 early lings. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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immor7a1
United States26 Posts
Should Zerg builds be so fine tuned that it comes down to the 20th larvae - build a drone, 21st larvae - build a sling, 22nd larvae -- build a drone? Also, I'm coming to the realization that spine crawlers are worthless. I've done a lot better defending early pushes with a large number of lings. Zerg is also very positional race. Protoss and Terran are more efficient when in a ball form. Zerg is better when they surround the enemy. This is why I don't like spine crawlers, because it forces the Zerg to fight at the spine crawler, which may put the Zerg player at a disadvantage on certain maps, such as those that have giant holes in the ground near the natural (Xel'Nage and Kulas) that the enemy can use to effectively cut off one side of a surround. Zerg players can't surround at these locations. And in fact, there are few locations on any map where Zerg can fully engulf an army. So, when you start to theorize how to defend an early expansion, take into consideration that the best way you will defeat an early push is by surrounding the enemy player. Why not, then, make a couple more slings so that when the early push comes, it takes fewer larvae to get to that critical mass number for surrounding early pushes. | ||
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-vVvTitan-
United States473 Posts
10 Scout 14 extract (with the 14th built drone) 14 Pool 14/15 drone 15/overlord 16/drone Queen 19---1 pack of zerglings (clear expo of bunker scv/probe) THEN ZERGLING SPEED 20Drone (Pull drones off gas starting at 92) Send both Zergling and Drone pack to Expand (or if timing is off because of gas steal or something, just pull one from the line) Expand 19 - 2nd Queen 19-Overlord 20- Drone From here I react (if I already havn't -i.e. 2gate reapers) on what my opponent is doing. If I see 4gate, well.. the timing for that is 1:30 after the expansiobn finishes. I will transfer 11 drones, 3 will become spines. Until I scout the Warp gates are completed, I drone hard. During the transfer I put 3 drones back on gas and once I reach 100, I lair tech and drop an extractor. If I am facing terran I baneling nest 1/4 the way through lair so I will have the gas needed for both Baneling speed, and the infestation pit. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On September 05 2010 11:56 rackdude wrote: First of all, instead of switching your build due to mechanics you don't have, I think you should just do a build that you like that's very powerful and keep on doing it until you're good at it. Of course you'll have a lot of mistakes. Hell, since I've switched to Zerg I've gotten roflstomped a few times for forgetting to spawn larvae. However, I use it as a learning experience and am instead just improving my macro to become a more solid player. I'm not going to go "well, this build will get me into the midgame easier, therefore I'll do it". Instead I'm going "this build will get me into a solid midgame with a good economy. Some of the top players are able to stop a ton of all-ins with it with relative ease. It's possible to do, so I will learn it". If you can do that, and you like it, theres not reason for you not to try repeatedly to make a build work. For others though, trying to make a build work that simply doesnt work yet for you, where you lose repeatedly again and again and again and again... Will cause a huge amount of frustration. It will cause epic whine and QQ on the forums. It will cause players to switch race to terran -_- Trying to improve while winning 60% of the games is just infinitely more satisfying for some people than trying to improve while winning 20% of the time. And in some cases, the fact that you dont end up nerdraging as much, or blaming it on imbalance, will let you improve faster too | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 05 2010 23:27 morimacil wrote: If you can do that, and you like it, theres not reason for you not to try repeatedly to make a build work. For others though, trying to make a build work that simply doesnt work yet for you, where you lose repeatedly again and again and again and again... Will cause a huge amount of frustration. It will cause epic whine and QQ on the forums. It will cause players to switch race to terran -_- Trying to improve while winning 60% of the games is just infinitely more satisfying for some people than trying to improve while winning 20% of the time. And in some cases, the fact that you dont end up nerdraging as much, or blaming it on imbalance, will let you improve faster too I see it more as, you lose about 45% of the time, but your losses are really stupid and you blame yourself because you know what you did wrong. I watch the replay and go "silly me, I saw two gasses but didn't get a group of speedlings/roach!". In this style, there is no imbalance, you just mess up. I like knowing the game is up to me . | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On September 05 2010 12:30 Barrin wrote: Well I'm no Idra but my macro and mechanics are actually my strong point Of course everyone would say this but I'm actually a lot better than what im ranked @ like 700 diamond or w/e. I'm still goin up dozens of points every few hour session I play. Just haven't been grinding a lot, I'm under 100 1v1 games post-release (almost 1000 if you consider 2v2 3v3 4v4 and UMS though :D)Nope  I really do the same thing except I don't use roaches I just have a shitload of zerglings. My zergling micro is actually very good. In the beta I cheesed hundreds of times (in team games) using an 11drone speedling where I just had a retarded amount of speedlings at X time and I would just stomp all of my opponent's mining. I'm pretty sure my zergling micro is gosu status. The worst confrontation I ever had against a 5reaper when I did mass speedlings it was a nearly dead even fight I pushed him all the way to his base and his reaper and a half ran home crying. I really don't like using roaches to defend against reapers slings move at almost the same speed as sreapers off of creep. yes I know they can kite. But trust me I always have enough zerglings to still surround them even while taking heavy losses myself. Yes roaches do a lot better vs reapers while on creep. So do zerglings.I have been starting with 6-8 (8 most recently, but 6 is fine). Right there I am totally safe and can pump 5-7 drones then I make a bunch more zerglings and im safe for another few minutes where things start to get really ambiguous. It's all about what I think they're making at that point really. I guess you could say that the main difference is that after I pump another 5-7 drones after my first 6-8 zerglings, I pump out another 10+ zerglings just for insurance. This timing is right before the earliest terran balls come. All sounds good (though the 10+ lings could be cut if you see an FE or something of the like, but with the popularity of 1 base play it works fine) except your dislike of roaches. Download the Cella vs Lz Showmatch series of replays and you will see why. Roaches aren't great massed, but they have great synergy with lings. The main problem with roaches is that they are kited, but with lings in play, stalkers and marauders won't be running away for long since every second they do is another hit by the lings (not to mention they will just get trapped). I was against roaches but after seeing how just a dash, maybe 3 roaches, just thrown in when you see a rush can help immensely. Massed? No, that takes too much gas. Just a few to shoot from behind the lings and tank zealots? Yes, with nice surrounds I really think this is the most cost effective early game army. | ||
ALPINA
3791 Posts
What about map control, with 4-6 zerglings you can have full map control most of the time. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
On September 05 2010 14:10 immor7a1 wrote: So, when you start to theorize how to defend an early expansion, take into consideration that the best way you will defeat an early push is by surrounding the enemy player. Why not, then, make a couple more slings so that when the early push comes, it takes fewer larvae to get to that critical mass number for surrounding early pushes. I think this basically is the summary of whats going on in this thread. The thing about zerg reactionary play style is that, they will either build units reacting to a attack, however if the attacker/defender comes out even losses, the zerg will lose due to lack of larvae to rein while the attacker's reinforcement is constant(zerg armies are relatively weaker vs the other races at the same food supply). So basically, a zerg will have 1,or maybe 2 rounds of effective reinforcement(Injections). however he WILL run out of larvae,while the opponent is pushing him down with his own reinforcement which are constant & steady compared to zerg's burst-like style of reinforcement. EDIT:- forgot my own opinion. I think this should be the style zergs should play instead of the current style where a zerg early AND midgame is its deadzone, and everyone will try to end the zerg at those stages to prevent the zerg from getting his endgame which are just amazing(ultralisks & GGlords). every race's meta game vs a zerg is to waste his larvae by forcing him to lose units & drones, and the OP has made the point where if he has more units,he actually loses LESS larvae and most likely lesser drones, which is a great way to play. | ||
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On September 06 2010 00:24 Alpina wrote: Ok, so if I can always defend early push with minimal zergling force then your build is worse, right? Im not really sure if one is strictly worse than the other.Different would be more appropriate imo. In one style, youare trying to get 2 fully saturated bases, barely hold off the big push, and take a third. In the other style, you are trying to get 2 decently saturated based, crush his push, and deny his expo. In both cases, you would be ahead of your opponent, if it works. Either 3 bases vs 2, or 2 bases vs 1. In 3 base vs 2, you also have more workers, but in both cases you should be ahead on onconomy, if everything goes well. I think that after that, what is the best most 100% optimal build would depend a lot on the map, and your opponent. On a small map, with a short rush distance, and a wide open hard to defend natural, making units to defend a bit faster, is going to be good, because a small rush distance makes it harder to make them all at the last moment. Also, the harder to defend natural makes it harder to hold off with few units. And then your opponent's natural being wide open makes it easier for you to deny it. If the naturals are easy to defend though, then denying it from your opponent is going to be hard, and a lot of your extra units would be useless. So having a lot of drones instead would be a good thing. And about the few extra lings early on being completely incredibly useless: Its true they wont be incredibly useful until the push comes around, but you can still kill proxy stargates, destructible rocks, statues, and so on with them. They will be most useful when your opponent does move out though. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
I agree with you. ZvX is very situational and you should not have universal start for everything. If you see reapers, 2 gate, ton of rax early on of course you gonna make much more units. but most of time it just does not worth. Ok so enemy walls himself with canons and you gonna pump lings, right? lol | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Phayze
Canada2029 Posts
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Ok so enemy walls himself with canons and you gonna pump lings, right? lol Well ofc, in SC, part of the game is reacting to your opponent, and if he makes cannons, you dont really want to make too many units too early. But the point still stands that when my opponent is going for a midgame push (which is about 60% of the games I play, the rest being ZvZ, cheese, and crazy players trying to fast expand, and get more economy than a zerg), I would much rather invest more heavily in army, and crush his push, and then still have an army to threaten a counterattack, force him to invest in his army rather than in tech or expos, keep mapcontrol, and so on. The basic principle of having more units causes less losses still holds true. For example, against a single unmicroed zealot on creep, 4 lings are enough to kill it. you lose 2 zerglings. But if you made 2 more lings, then you only lose a single one. So in both situations, you killed the zealot. In situation 1, you paid 100 minerals, killed a zealot, and have 2 lings left over. That is 50 minerals per ling. In situation 2, you paid 150 minerals, killed a zealot, and have 5 lings left over. That is 30 minerals per ling. So yeah, you paid 50 minerals and a larva more, that could have been a drone. But you still have those 2 lings that you paid for. And you also saved yourself 25 minerals, and half a larva from having one less ling die. Imagine that after that, a second zealot arrives. Now if you were in situation 1, you have to make another set of lings, putting you at equal cost with situation 2. But now in situation 1, you are still at 2 lings, in situation 2, you are still at 4 lings. If a third zealot arrives now. If in situation 1, where you make just enough to hold it off, you have to remake another set of lings! In situation 2, you still have 4, even if you didnt make any more since the initial set. So then with situation 1, by opting to make just enough lings to hold it off, you ended up having to pay 50 more minerals, and an extra larva, to hold off the exact same amount of zealots (3). If you the extra set of lings was made more than 1 minute before the zealots arrived, then by opting to get the early drone instead, you would have made back the 50 minerals, but are still 1 larva behind. If the extra set of lings was finished for example 30 seconds before the zealots started arriving at your base, then making more army put you ahead on both minerals, and on larva. Now I know this example is pure theory, and it wont happen like that in an actual game situation, but it still holds true in the grand scheme of things. Investing in workers will put you ahead in the ressource count if done early enough, but investing more heavily in army will put you ahead on larva. "Curious as to how you deal with a 4/5 Barracks Reaper build with this? Do you just mass speedlings and throw them repeatedly?" Same thing vs reapers. Or any unit. if you have 6 lings, and 2 reapers are attacking you, you can sacrifice them by running forward and back to gain some time. But if you have 15 lings against those 2 reapers, if he fails you can just kill them, and if he doesnt, you still pushed him back to a cliff, at least, instead of to the edge of your creep. And he cant kill them quite as fast, since he doest have so much of a chance to stop moving them. Just try it in the unit tester if you dont believe me. Take the ramp area. Take 1 reaper with speed, vs 4 lings with speed. Easy kills, no risk of your reaper dying at all. Takes almost no time to kill them. Then, try it vs 20 lings, 10 of them at the top, 10 at the bottom. Managed to kill all 20 of them without taking a hit? Managed to do it fast, and not spend most of your time jumping up and down a cliff? Now imagine it with creep on top, and with you having no vision of it. Much much harder when the player has enough lings to actually pose the threat of a kill on the reaper, and to have enough to hold both sides of a cliff. Also, against a few more lings, going into the open terrain with your reaper means certain death. Against a couple of lings, you dont even really have to hug a cliff, you can kill them before they reach the reaper, even in the open. So yeah, I do believe that attacking a reaper with 16 lings, is a whole lot more effective than sacrificing 4 lings, then another 4, and another 4, and another 4. The downside is you dont make the drones at the earliest possible moment. The upside is that you gain a lot more time, and have a chance to actually surround and kill the reaper. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
The biggest upside of playing this build, for me at least, is all the oh crap moments. With the standard way, which I used to do, the oh crap moments went like this: Oh crap, he had a couple more units than I expected. GG. But now instead, the oh crap moment is: Hm, I didnt crush that push quite as hard as I thought I would, guess he might be able to secure his expo faster than I expected  | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
Take ZvP for example. my drone scout reveals 12 or 13 gate into core, with 1 zealot being added during core to wall off. There is NO reason not to 100% drone for atleast a little while; its useless to open with some splings. Like, add 2x splings after expo, to take towers and poke ramp. Thats it. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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horoLA
Brazil50 Posts
I do think players that tell stuff like "i play on the borderline and ur bad" are wrong as you are mostly playing luck and that won't get you anywhere. There's some obvious times where just drone pumping is ok like the user KaiserJohan has mentioned, but if it isn't obvious I think you shoudn't take the risk. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Yes, if you scout something safe from your opponent, making only speedlings from all your next 10 larva is dumb. Thats not the point though. I dont have all the numbers figured out, but I tend to make them in an increasing rate. Something like 7 drones, 1 ling, then 6-2, then 5-3, then maybe all lings if theres a possible timing for my opponent to come attack, if he does move out all lings again, if not all drones for a while, since Im safe with the lings. And the theory of having more than "just enough" stuff to hold off his push still remains valid imo, even if you are making your stuff at the last moment. "Just enough" is a HUGE risk, the potential reward is very small. By trying to make everything at the last minute, you run the risk of losing, and your gain is having the drones out a couple of seconds earlier. By first making enough units to be safe, and then making only drones, knowing that you are safe, well.... You are safe you get the drones a little later, but you dont risk losing the game if your opponent pushes out at an akward time. My personal opinion, is that the very best way to play (as in 100% optimal), is to play safe, and not play the game on a gamble. BUT! The amount of units that you need to be safe can be different from game to game, opponent to opponent, depends on his race, what you scout, and so on. So if you are a super awesome player, you can totally be safe with fewer units, and consequentially, get away with pumping more drones early on. Thats good (obviously). But risking to lose the game on a gamble, because you didnt play it safe enough is a bit dumb. Play safe. If you are safe with 0 units, fine. Good. If you need more units to be safe, make more units. But if you are not Idra, why the hell are you throwing games away by not just playing safe? Dont lose by trying to mimic exactly what a pro is doing, and failing, because you are not that pro, and thus the amount of units he needs, is smaller than the amount of units you need. | ||
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Fugue
Australia253 Posts
Terran: 1 SCV every 17 seconds, 1 SCV must be pulled for 30s (+ travel time) to build a depot. Protoss: 1 probe every 17 seconds, 1 probe must be pulled for travel time only to build a pylon. Zerg: 1 larvae every 15 seconds means over time 1 drone every 15 seconds, but with 1 overlord every 8th larvae, the 8th drone takes 30 seconds, making it just a hair under 17 seconds a drone. So, long story short, 1 hatch no queen is equivalent to a single CC with no OC, or an unchronoboosted Nexus. Any extra larvae on top of the 3 from the 1st hatch could be put into units other than drones and your economy would grow as fast as players not using OC or Chronoboosting Nexus. Which doesn't happen. So, as a rule of thumb, you can say use (on average) at least 3 larvae from every cycle as drones, and as many more as you can get away with safely. I think it's a nice rule of thumb and probably what this build is centered around, but I do think the argument holds that, as it should be 3 larvae on average, doing rounds of drones earlier and switching to lings/roaches as soon as a threat presents is more streamlined than holding to 3-5 drones every cycle and building up lings over time. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
Once you rise up through the different levels of skill and reach the zone where everyone of your opponents knows what he's doing, pumping the maximum amount of drones without losing to pushes is THE essential skill that a Zerg player has to have in order to win games, as building combat units when there is no need to will set you behind in matches against high-level opponents. This includes: precise scouting, taking thirds at the right time, producing units at the right time, knowing when to tech,of course some basic mechanics like inject larvae and in-base drone management. the last point means that you decide when to get additional gas, if and when it's smart to maynard, if and when it's smart to spread more tumors or get more larvae. If you, for example, get gas too early you will get mineral starved rather quickly and won't be able to produce the maximum amount of drones anymore since you'll have too much larvae left over and no minerals to produce drones or even build buildings like roach warren etc. The effect that 4 less drones have on your mineral economy (1 for geysir and 3 which are collecting gas) is often very underestimated. During the time it takes the queen to inject 3 larvae those 4 drones would usually have mined 200-300 minerals. thats 4-6 more drones! Taking gas too early is often the reason that some players can't keep up with the queens larvae injecting and are constantly "overlarvae'd". A good way to detect if you do it right is for looking at replays of yours and then looking at the larvae count in your hatcheries. If there are always small windows where you don't yet have at least 2 fully saturated bases but you still have a lot of larvae left over, you're probably doing something wrong (most zerg players who read this will know what I mean... sometimes u mess up your mineral mining and gas collecting distribution and you will have like 6 larvae and just get one more drone every 5 seconds or so - that's not how it should be. You should be able to build what you want to build as soon as the larvae get available). Note that I'm still talking about early game, where you mostly set your economy up and scout / prepare for early pushes. Of course, in later stages of the game, it's actually smart to have larvae saved up in order to quickly reinforce forces after a lost battle. Many Zerg players forget that "overlarvae-ing" also has the effect that it reduces your maximum amount of units produced in the game (drones + combat units), since your hatcheries won't spawn any more larvae if you have 3 or more at them. This (especially in regards to drone production) will have pretty detrimental and snowballing effects on your economy over the entire course of the game. Just missing one natural hatchery larvae spawning cycle can mean that you have 300 minerals less a few minutes later in the game and you can't take your third or you can't get out those additional 6 roaches that would've saved you the game. If you can't keep up with inject larvae, in essence, it means that you'll expand to a third later, that you'll have a harder time quickly getting units to defend a push and in general to get an army. It might mean that you are able to tech faster (if you get gas too early), but you won't really be able to do anything once you reach lair, since you have no resources. As a little tl;dr for this part of my post: Figure out how to keep up with "Inject Larvae" and still tech fast enough or produce gas-requiring early game units fast enough (roach/baneling). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By the way, the reason zerg is reactionary is that none of these factors are constant and instead very dynamic. As Terran and Toss, you pretty much always "drone up" + build units and tech, plus you'll also have predefined times when you build certain things (in short: build orders) and certain time windows when you transition into other parts of the game (like expandanding and so forth). Zerg mostly doesn't have that beyond xpool/xhatch, and even xhatch is usually very dynamic depending on the very-early-game actions of your opponent. If you compare Zerg replays, Zerg players never tech at the same time, they never produce units at the same time, in most games they'll not have the same amount of combat units/drones at the same time. That is why zerg is reactionary. The state of the Zerg's game depends on the actions of their opponent. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
The first one would be about making drones when you are safe. It seems like everyone agrees that its a good idea to make drones when you are safe. Basic stuff. However, I just wanna point out, that sometimes, you do need units to be safe. If you have 2 lings and a crawler, and know that you can use that to delay your opponent enough for your next round of larva to pop and become lings, and so you make all drones, and are safe, thats perfectly fine and valid. But if you need more units to be safe, then you should make those preemptive units to be safe. Pumping all drones because idra does it and going "oooh, hope he doesnt push now! *fingers crossed*" isnt a good way to play. playing safe is better, and if you cant be safe without units, make units. And the second point is about the number of units to hold off a push, having barely enough vs having enough for a decisive win. And point one leads well into this one, if you have preemptive units, its easier to have enough units to crush his push by the time it arrives. But still, you could just as well have a couple of preemptive units, enough to be safe, and then when his push comes, make just the required amount of units to hold it off. For that one, I believe its mostly a matter of how you like to play, your style, your strategy, and personal choice. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Another thing to think about is that the "minimum" amount of units created will always end up in a fight that is entirely dependent on micro as to which player wins. That's really bad, seeing as Zerg units are the hardest to micro, and anything that helps you micro (like getting an advantage in army count) will help you win as Zerg. Outnumbering an opponent will allow you to overcome his push and then secure an immediate win. Merely meeting his numbers is simply playing Russian roulette; anything can happen, and the odds are stacked against the Zerg player; if his hatcheries are too far apart, the units will arrive late, if he's supply blocked or close to it he wastes larva on overlords, if he doesn't have enough larvae he is fucked, and if he just pumped drones it's gg. If your panic minimum actually manages to win the fight, what have you done? Nothing. The game just goes on longer, and most likely, the odds are STILL 50-50 or worse, since the fight was probably near one of your bases. The current mindset of macrozerg players is retarded. | ||
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ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
I too, opt to build a large army in the early game to crush my opponents push, and I've been fairly successful with it. This whole idea of FE every game that so many people have is just utterly retarded. Nothing is set in stone. The game has been available for about 6 months and people think there is a infallible standard on how things MUST be done. Completely false. Sorry for the rant, im working a mid shift, and my Droid isn't exactly the best tool for writing comprehensively. | ||
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pheno
Germany33 Posts
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natris
23 Posts
The logic behind "crush rather than barely win" is valid but only if the opponent lets you crush him. Maybe this is the reason why at the top level this approach does not really work while at lower level the terran/protoss just goes for certain timing push without reacting properly. | ||
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
If only I could find them. Also, I just violated rules 1 and 2 of Artosis' rules of droning. | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
this is a summary of my last ZvT games on ~900 diamond lvl. - resources - workers created Z ----- 7,1k ----- 42 T ----- 7,7k ----- 29 game 2 --- 20 minutes played Z ----- 18,8k ----- 64 T ----- 16,5k ----- 33 game 3 --- 14 minutes played Z ----- 9,3k ----- 53 T ----- 10,1k ----- 31 game 4 --- 9 minutes played Z ----- 4,7k ----- 29 T ----- 6,5k ----- 26 game 5 --- 31 minutes played Z ----- 28,4k ----- 63 T ----- 34,0k ----- 55 game 6 --- 11 minutes played Z ----- 8,1k ----- 36 T ----- 8,6k ----- 29 game 7 ---- 11 minutes played Z ----- 7,1k ----- 33 T ----- 7,3k ----- 22 game 8 --- 23 minutes played Z ----- 27,0k ----- 84 T ----- 15,7k ----- 27 game 9 --- 13 minutes played Z ----- 8,2k ----- 46 T ----- 9,1k ----- 27 game 10 --- 21 minutes played Z ----- 21,0k ----- 60 T ----- 21,5k ----- 40 now imagine this without powering drones. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:15 MangoTango wrote: This would be a good thread to copypasta Artosis' rules of droning. If only I could find them. Also, I just violated rules 1 and 2 of Artosis' rules of droning. This may help. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q="rules of droning"&t=ct&f=-1&u=&gb=date It's funny though. I don't remember an "Artosis'" rules of droning... | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
I'm actually intersting in reading the rules, I remember that post vaguly from beta | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:28 Ciddass wrote: for the guys that say "you don`t have to power drones" ima copy paste some data from the mule economics thread. this is a summary of my last ZvT games on ~900 diamond lvl. - resources - workers created [lots of useless numbers here im editing out for the sake of the legh of this quote] 1 hatchery making only drones and overlords produces the same amount of workers as a terran command center. A mule costs 2 workers to make (cant make workers while upgrading to an orbital), and mines like 3. The great benefit from a mule though, is to still be able to mine on fully saturated minerals, thus a mule is roughly equal to 3 workers, and 2 more mineral patches. As long as you use all of your base larva from the hatch to make workers, and are ahead on bases, and dont lose your workers, then you will have the same economy as a terran. You then still have the second hatchery, and the extra larva from 2 queens to make buildings, army, overlords for the army, and a couple of extra drones, and you will still be ahead or even. You dont need to pump all workers all the time to stay even. Its worth noting that for zerg, due to increased movement speed on creep of workers, 16 workers on minerals per base is closer to full saturation than for SCVs, and that mules dont saturate. Thus, if you already have 16 workers mining on minerals, making more wont help your economy much, expanding and making 16 workers there is a better choice. In short, instead of having 70 workers on 2 bases, having 60 on 3 bases actually gives you way more money. You dont need to devote an incredible number of larva, or all your larve on drones to stay even or ahead, you just need to be 1 base and 2-3 workers ahead. By that I mean actual workers though. as in, drones that are mining. If you are makinbg spawning pools, extractors, hatcheries, baneling nests, spires, evolution chambers, spine crawlers ..... any zerg building really, the of course, your number of worker produced needs to be higher than the terran, since each of your buildings as zerg requires you to build a worker first. But just keep in mind that if you have 2 hatcheries and 2 queens, your hatcheries are making only drones, for mining and buildings, and a few overlords, and then you use the extra larva from queens to make overlords and combat units (And the drones for spinecrawlers), then you are still ahead on economy. Go try it out if you dont believe me. Make 2 hatcheries, making only drones and overlords, and have your opponent be terran, and make only SCVs, supply depots, and mule as much as he can. You will be ahead on economy. That extra larva from the queens, CAN be used to get even further ahead on economy. But it doesnt mean that its a good idea to always use it on drones, and pray that your opponent doesnt push, because you are betting the whole game on the timing of his push. | ||
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Exquisito
United States55 Posts
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:27 morimacil wrote: 1 hatchery making only drones and overlords produces the same amount of workers as a terran command center. A mule costs 2 workers to make (cant make workers while upgrading to an orbital), and mines like 3. The great benefit from a mule though, is to still be able to mine on fully saturated minerals, thus a mule is roughly equal to 3 workers, and 2 more mineral patches. As long as you use all of your base larva from the hatch to make workers, and are ahead on bases, and dont lose your workers, then you will have the same economy as a terran. You then still have the second hatchery, and the extra larva from 2 queens to make buildings, army, overlords for the army, and a couple of extra drones, and you will still be ahead or even. You dont need to pump all workers all the time to stay even. Its worth noting that for zerg, due to increased movement speed on creep of workers, 16 workers on minerals per base is closer to full saturation than for SCVs, and that mules dont saturate. Thus, if you already have 16 workers mining on minerals, making more wont help your economy much, expanding and making 16 workers there is a better choice. In short, instead of having 70 workers on 2 bases, having 60 on 3 bases actually gives you way more money. You dont need to devote an incredible number of larva, or all your larve on drones to stay even or ahead, you just need to be 1 base and 2-3 workers ahead. By that I mean actual workers though. as in, drones that are mining. If you are makinbg spawning pools, extractors, hatcheries, baneling nests, spires, evolution chambers, spine crawlers ..... any zerg building really, the of course, your number of worker produced needs to be higher than the terran, since each of your buildings as zerg requires you to build a worker first. But just keep in mind that if you have 2 hatcheries and 2 queens, your hatcheries are making only drones, for mining and buildings, and a few overlords, and then you use the extra larva from queens to make overlords and combat units (And the drones for spinecrawlers), then you are still ahead on economy. Go try it out if you dont believe me. Make 2 hatcheries, making only drones and overlords, and have your opponent be terran, and make only SCVs, supply depots, and mule as much as he can. You will be ahead on economy. That extra larva from the queens, CAN be used to get even further ahead on economy. But it doesnt mean that its a good idea to always use it on drones, and pray that your opponent doesnt push, because you are betting the whole game on the timing of his push. Bolded text is not true. Drones are the only zerg unit that does not get a speed boost on creep. | ||
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Dice.
United States78 Posts
If you're afraid of early air, get some extra queens. For sure. If they're cloaked banshees, get an early overseer and your queens will make quick work of those banshees. Pump those drones FTW! | ||
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RScott
United States15 Posts
The actual army composition and size should be pretty flexible to suit the situation. If you find you can get away with more or less that should be fine -- after using the concept a while, it should be fairly clear what works and doesn't. But the huge mistake I see is newer Zergs trying to copy pro zergs who have perfect game sense, scout all of the possibilities their opponent could be doing and prepares for them. Newer Zergs don't have a clear idea of what they could possibly deal with at a given push-out and usually don't have their bases and army prepared when it happens. Consider where and how you want the battle to take place as Zerg. You don't want it happening at your front door or in a narrow choke path. You want viable ways to get your reinforcements into position at the flank of your enemy. The more the enemy closes into your location, on most maps, the narrower the path closes in and you have far fewer ways to get a surround. It's really a timing thing. If you see your opponent moving out and it takes you more than 1 round of units to be ready to fight, then the battle is most likely going to take place at or near your front door. If it will take you two full rounds of units or more, then it's even worse, as almost all of your units are sure to be on only one side of the enemy army. Most Zergs at the early game who have to fight head-on without a flank or good surround will lose by a large margin. IMO this plan is a good way for Zergs who do not have superior map control or game sense to account for the fact that a battle can happen at any point and they are likely to be unprepared and therefore are likely to fight in a location that is not of their choosing. How many times have we all heard Zergs make statements like the race is 100% reactionary or that Zerg armies are fundamentally weak? Some of this may be true, but I'm sure that a lot of this comes from following a style that starts off reactionary and ends with a poor battle location. I feel like the idea of keeping a moderate army early on is the best way to keep the early game more even. Sure there is less chance of a HUGE mid-game economy, but there is also less chance of an early steamroll. So I think the middle path is the best one for newer players to start from, not one of the extremes. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Just wanna point out that where he says "newer players", I would be a bit broader. I see tons mid/high diamond level players, some of which have been playing SC for years, making the mistake of too many drones, and not enough units for them to be safe, opting instead to make the same amount of units idra or some other player needs to be safe. And losing countless games because of that. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:18 Galleon.frigate wrote: oddly I don't see the thread come up from that search, or google.. but then I didn't sleep to watch gom last night so that might explain it... I'm actually intersting in reading the rules, I remember that post vaguly from beta You probably can't find them because "Artosis' rules of droning" doesn't exist. | ||
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Malabyte
Norway75 Posts
On September 05 2010 06:45 Barrin wrote: This is the general assumption of zerg players right now. My point is that they CAN matter, and often do if done properly. Dude, that can be said about anything in the game lol. Your argument is void, because you assume that your opponent can be so easily controlled. What if he's scouted you out? He'll counter your build with his own. You're using a hypothetical situation and saying that it is especially useful just because it CAN work in some cases against some players... | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:28 Ciddass wrote:+ Show Spoiler + for the guys that say "you don`t have to power drones" ima copy paste some data from the mule economics thread. this is a summary of my last ZvT games on ~900 diamond lvl. - resources - workers created Z ----- 7,1k ----- 42 T ----- 7,7k ----- 29 game 2 --- 20 minutes played Z ----- 18,8k ----- 64 T ----- 16,5k ----- 33 game 3 --- 14 minutes played Z ----- 9,3k ----- 53 T ----- 10,1k ----- 31 game 4 --- 9 minutes played Z ----- 4,7k ----- 29 T ----- 6,5k ----- 26 game 5 --- 31 minutes played Z ----- 28,4k ----- 63 T ----- 34,0k ----- 55 game 6 --- 11 minutes played Z ----- 8,1k ----- 36 T ----- 8,6k ----- 29 game 7 ---- 11 minutes played Z ----- 7,1k ----- 33 T ----- 7,3k ----- 22 game 8 --- 23 minutes played Z ----- 27,0k ----- 84 T ----- 15,7k ----- 27 game 9 --- 13 minutes played Z ----- 8,2k ----- 46 T ----- 9,1k ----- 27 game 10 --- 21 minutes played Z ----- 21,0k ----- 60 T ----- 21,5k ----- 40 now imagine this without powering drones. These numbers are a bit misleading without knowing: Did either loose workers to harassment, how many bases were both on, how many gas geysers. Vs terran, you need to be ~5 drones ahead(and not oversaturated) vs mule per base(the terran has) to have equal econ, then some more depending on unit efficiency(t is generally more efficient, but the diff between the races also depends on the players). The biggest disadvantage I see from this is mostly that you are using your larvae for lower tier units than if you'd hold out on units as long as possible. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
If you check out this day 9 daily, I think whats important to note and is relevant to this thread, is the part about making more early drones there. He managed to squeeze in more early drones. Thats nice. But he managed to do it while still being safe, because he saw that early marine, and knew exactly what his opponent's timings were. He wasnt just randomly making more drones, hoping his opponent would wait, he was making more drones while still being safe. Thats good. After that, he did make a bunch of preemptive roaches, and crushed the little marauder push. The preemptive roaches allowed him to keep on pumping out even more drones, while still being safe. He got away with as many drones as he could while still being safe, he didnt make all drones until the last possible second hoping no push would come. I disagree with the answer to the post game question, where day9 explains his theory of the best way to lose. Or well, I dont actually disagree with it that much, I just think it isnt very relevant if instead you are looking for the best way to win. And to me, the best way to win, isnt to hope that your opponent doesnt notice the weakness in your play while you pump drones, because people will push out at seemingly random times, people will scout your weakness, study your build, or just get lucky, and attack when you are weak, and you will lose those games. To me, its a much better idea to be safe. Then, once you are safe, cut down on the stuff you can cut out. To me, its just so much more satisfying to see a player for example an overseer, just to be safe, because he knows that DTs can come at that point in the game, and that he will need it to be safe, and never never actually need or use that overseer for the whole game, instead of someone not making it, instead for example opting to get an extra mutalisk, and just hoping his opponent isnt going for DTs. Sometimes its going to be little things. Sometimes really hard to notice things. A terran could be saving up enough for a scan at a particular moment, opting to mule a little later, just because he knows DTs could be coming at that particular point in time. Or instead, he could be throwing down a turret, or have a ghost, or a raven, all perfectly fine. Using the mule, using the money on an expo, and going "ooooh, hope he doesnt have DTs or else im fucked!" is a really terrible way to play though imo. At least if you intend to win | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:28 Ciddass wrote: for the guys that say "you don`t have to power drones" ima copy paste some data from the mule economics thread. this is a summary of my last ZvT games on ~900 diamond lvl. - resources - workers created Z ----- 7,1k ----- 42 T ----- 7,7k ----- 29 game 2 --- 20 minutes played Z ----- 18,8k ----- 64 T ----- 16,5k ----- 33 game 3 --- 14 minutes played Z ----- 9,3k ----- 53 T ----- 10,1k ----- 31 game 4 --- 9 minutes played Z ----- 4,7k ----- 29 T ----- 6,5k ----- 26 game 5 --- 31 minutes played Z ----- 28,4k ----- 63 T ----- 34,0k ----- 55 game 6 --- 11 minutes played Z ----- 8,1k ----- 36 T ----- 8,6k ----- 29 game 7 ---- 11 minutes played Z ----- 7,1k ----- 33 T ----- 7,3k ----- 22 game 8 --- 23 minutes played Z ----- 27,0k ----- 84 T ----- 15,7k ----- 27 game 9 --- 13 minutes played Z ----- 8,2k ----- 46 T ----- 9,1k ----- 27 game 10 --- 21 minutes played Z ----- 21,0k ----- 60 T ----- 21,5k ----- 40 now imagine this without powering drones. Shouldn't you be subtracting the drones you created simply to make buildings? Let's say you build roughly 15 buildings per game, then every single one is comparable. Terran will be slightly ahead because of mules, so you should expect a 5 worker or so advantage in their favor. | ||
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idakeh
Canada8 Posts
Protoss and Terran on low econ are just so much more potent and powerful then a zerg. If you want to win you got to exploit advantages, as difficult as the timing is. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Great idea, plan, strategy, whatever. 2 parts to it. "getting to the lategame" and "lots of drones" There has to be some kind of balance between the 2. Too many people focus on the lots of drones part, and ignore anything else. What, a zerg saying I should build units to be safe?! Insane! Let me give a couple of examples. make mutas, contain and harrass, and pump drones with the time you gained - safe and sound strategy. Making no units, because you know you can build a couple of lings, and delay with your queen -safe and sound strategy. Making a spine crawler for the 2 gate zealots you know will be arriving, so that you can build a couple more drones - safe and sound strategy. Starting to make units and spinecrawlers in time to not die to a 4 gate push - again, safe and sound strategy. Using 100% of your larva on drones because in that one replay you saw a pro make a lot of early drones, knowing that if your opponent does push, you are dead, and hoping that he doesnt push - not really a strategy at all. not safe. not sound. If you are going to be doing something like that, you might as well fast expand to the gold, and hope your opponent doesnt notice. Same risk, bigger benefit. Yes, by making any units, or buildings instead of drones, you have less economy. But there is a reason for making a spwning pool before you have 3 fully saturated bases, and no, that reason isnt just the queens for more drones. You need to make drones, yes. But making drones shouldnt be a gamble. Making as many drones as you can get away with safely is awesome. Making as many drones as you possibly can when its not safe, is dumb. + Show Spoiler + Unless of course, you are somehow way behind, then it might be worth it to risk the game on a gamble, like a hidden gold expo or multiple rounds of only drones using up all your larva and supply. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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