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I've had a lot of trouble defending against cheese...so much to the point that I lose like 90% of my games where I get cheesed. Which is unfortunate because like 40-50% of games will have someone cheesing.
I usually do the standard Orbital Command opening with the scout after the depot. Once I see an empty Terran or Protoss base, I'll usually throw down another rax and then put a bunker down too. I don't wall against T or P, I do wall against Z.
The problem I have is that even if I know it's coming and mass Marines and bunkers, I still can't cover everything. I'm unable to build more rax because the SCV gets picked off by Reapers/Zealots, my bunkers can't cover all of my base so I have to constantly juggle loading and unloading when I don't have that many marines to load in them anyways. It usually ends with me holding off the first push then unsuccessfully trying to put down more rax as they add production structures and continue harassing everywhere in my base. My naked marines without bunkers get owned, if I bunker them they just go somewhere out of reach of the bunker.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
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Wall with double barracks +tech lab. One marauder in the mineral line will ward away any reapers.
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If the marines are coming out as fast as you suggest, you can easily lose 4-5 workers in your defense and still be economically ahead.
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There are a number of ways to effectively defend against cheese. I think it is also generally accepted that terran has an easier time than either of the other two races dealing with early cheese because their basic unit is ranged and their ability to build bunkers(free with mail in rebate) for those units to hide in when damaged. Depending on your level of play I highly recommend trying the challenge mission which forces you to defend the 2 gate rush as terran. It gives you very good practice in how to use buildings and range to your advantage against whatever Z or P can throw against you in the early game.
1. Use a conservative (anti cheese) build order - Here something like a 10 barracks will guarantee you get your first marine out before anything is going to get into your base. With proper micro and the use of some of your SCVs you should be able to handle the first few units with ease.
2. Learn defensive micro techniques - Defending against the rush is all about micro. You want to keep every fighting unit alive for as long as possible. Kite the oncoming units as best you can and failing that, spread the damage you are taking as much as possible among all of your early units
3. Perfect your initial build timings - The easiest way to lose to cheese is by forgetting an early depot, accidentally delaying your second rax or bunker or stopping SCV production in the heat of battle. If you can keep up with your macro while holding off the cheese you have essentially guaranteed a win.
For specific rush counters (especially to the cannon rush) check out Force SC2, it has some really informative VODs against Diamond level cheese http://www.youtube.com/user/ForceSC2strategy
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I HATE proxy rax, I have serious trouble clicking on his damn SCV. It seems like the game only lets me click on the rax in building... If I see proxy gateway I just rage quit. It takes like forever even I pull all my workers trying to kill it.
imo workers should get an attack bonus against buildings.
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It depends on what cheese it is:
Cannon rush lift away and lol at the protoss, by the time you land at your natural (unless he cannons up from there) you should still have way more workers.
Proxy Gate, MUST get a bunker that covers both you CC (mineral line is a bonus) and your rax (hence some decent rax positioning is needed) will ensure that he doesnt do that much damage, proceed to get fast factory and helion run by will end the game. (get 100 gas exactly forgo the 2nd supply depot until bunker and factory are down. use scvs to buy time to get your bunker up if needed. all you have to do is hold out for that helion.
Proxy Rax: Get a 2nd rax and simply outproduce. Bunker is optional here depending on how fast the reaper is coming (ie how long did it take the scv to run to its proxy location and build).
By no means do these work 100% of the time but it should work about 90% of the time against cheese. 6pool: use scvs to fight first 6 lings and WALL immediately. leave an scv at your wall on auto repair as most 6 poolers will keep trying. Choose any number of normal openings you would like to do against zerg (even throwing down a CC) just be wary that he may try to baneling bust you fairly soon.
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Build compact as standard, no supply depots that can be picked off. As soon as your 12 rax is done get the rines pumping and place a bunker as said covering mineral line and all important shit, make 2 if u have to. Don't stop getting gas. Micro to fend off zealots lings, workers are good vs lings but terribad vs zealots only use as a last resort. Get a 2nd rax asap, when you have enough rines/bunker to keep him occupied build 1 reaper and win the game.
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Bunker up and try to get a reaper out as fast as possible. Usually when people cheese rush, they leave their base totally undefended. Send in your reaper and kill off all of his workers. If he still has a lot of units left, lift off and build up if needed.
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Thanks a ton for the help guys. I have more trouble with proxy rax than proxy gates since I can micro against the zealots decently.
However with the super early rax (I think they proxy it at 8 or something) their reaper comes out just before my first marine finishes building, and 1 marine cannot take out 1 reaper. From then on I'm fighting an uphill battle since I can only produce 1 rine from my 1 rax and they can produce reapers at almost equal speed and they easily own rines. If I try to put down a second rax the reapers will dance there and pick it off. If I get a bunker down (while my first marine is builidng) it still can't cover my entire mineral line/rax/cc/refinery. I constantly pump marines and try to put down a second/third rax but even if it succeeds, they can be adding their own as well. I find it hard to afford the time it takes to halt marine production and start a tech lab so I can't really get marauders or reapers of my own out.
A game I just played I was barely able to fend off the reapers with my marines but unable to kill all of them, he then got a few marauders and his reaper/marauder composition destroyed my marines (he used hit and run so the faster attack speed on the marines didn't do crap since they basically just traded hits 1 to 1).
I do try to build 2 bunkers to cover everything but I can't fill both of them in time. Cannon cheese and ling cheese I can deal with, proxy gates are tougher but still manageable, I just dunno what to do against the constant reapers streaming in and raping my marines.
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On September 01 2010 04:44 Curu wrote:
Thanks a ton for the help guys. I have more trouble with proxy rax than proxy gates since I can micro against the zealots decently.
However with the super early rax (I think they proxy it at 8 or something) their reaper comes out just before my first marine finishes building, and 1 marine cannot take out 1 reaper. From then on I'm fighting an uphill battle since I can only produce 1 rine from my 1 rax and they can produce reapers at almost equal speed and they easily own rines. If I try to put down a second rax the reapers will dance there and pick it off. If I get a bunker down (while my first marine is builidng) it still can't cover my entire mineral line/rax/cc/refinery. I constantly pump marines and try to put down a second/third rax but even if it succeeds, they can be adding their own as well. I find it hard to afford the time it takes to halt marine production and start a tech lab so I can't really get marauders or reapers of my own out.
A game I just played I was barely able to fend off the reapers with my marines but unable to kill all of them, he then got a few marauders and his reaper/marauder composition destroyed my marines (he used hit and run so the faster attack speed on the marines didn't do crap since they basically just traded hits 1 to 1).
I do try to build 2 bunkers to cover everything but I can't fill both of them in time. Cannon cheese and ling cheese I can deal with, proxy gates are tougher but still manageable, I just dunno what to do against the constant reapers streaming in and raping my marines.
2 marines beat 1 reaper and have equal build time, you only need 1 marine in a bunker to make it effective, bring the marines out if your other ones need back up. If you have 1 marine vs 1 reaper use some SCVs as a shield at the very least it forces him to run.
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TvT: If you're getting proxy reaper'd, don't stress too much by overreacting and bunkering. Make your first marine and pull 2-3 scvs (You can easy afford to do this). A reaper can beat your first lone marine, but the point is to either kill the reaper with the combined scv/marine damage or to damage him enough so your next marine can oneshot him and prepare for the next. Workers deal incredibly well with beginning reapers if they're forced to focus down a target (marine) and not micro around. From there, secure your base and hold off whatever he throws at you with as few worker casualties as possible.
TvP: If you're not opting to wall off, proxy gateways is still entirely possible to deal with. As soon as your barracks finishes, build a bunker hugging your CC/minerals as tight as possible. (Also if you're not opting to wall, building a depot behind your minerals limits where your enemy can move and is very useful.) The Protoss shouldn't be able to snipe down your bunker once you have a marine inside and modest repair. The key in this situation is to not lose scvs. Losing mining time is perfectly acceptable if you keep those 50 minerals SCVs alive to mine another day. In-base proxies should be dealt with similarly, you just have less time to make your neat defense line.
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Alright, thanks for the advice! Yeah I guess my biggest problem is being antsy about sending workers to attack. I suppose I gotta start pulling a few away from mining to chase away reapers.
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EPT
