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[D] TvP--why hellions are really really good against P - P…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Monk___
Profile Joined March 2010
United States123 Posts
August 26 2010 02:38 GMT
#41
they don't get made as often, because seriously every unit terran makes can be an effective strategy vs protoss. I'm not neccesarily crying imbalance, but just saying they can use many different strategies and unit combinations to be extremely effective.
0mar
Profile Joined February 2010
United States567 Posts
August 26 2010 03:06 GMT
#42
The biggest thing any Terran can do constant hellion drops. Those blue flame hellions are ridiculous; you can easily wipe out a mineral line in seconds. There's almost nothing you can do about either, since cannons can't kill fast enough. You need 6-8 stalkers in each mineral to actually deal with a 4 hellion drop before they roast all your probes.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
August 26 2010 03:12 GMT
#43
I took a day-long vacation from trying and played mech Terran last week.

Vs protoss it was tanks, hellions, and vikings with a couple marines sprinkled in there.

It was funny how effective it all was as I would just have this giant wall of hellions wherever I needed it. Zealots would be fried instantly, and stalkers would end up blinking right into siege range.

The only unit I ever had issues with were immortals, but when I had enough hellions, it was just funny in general.

I felt like a shitty player though, so I had to go back to zerg and play for reals.

The funny part, my rating stayed the same all day, so screwing around with mech terran is just as good as busting my ass with zerg :/

<3 anything and everything being effective, wish I had that as zerg...
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
link0
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1071 Posts
August 26 2010 04:18 GMT
#44
Hellions are only good for harass. They are not good in an army composition. Trust me, I've tried. Marines are almost always a better option in an army comp unless the Toss is making only zealot/HT.
http://www.justin.tv/link0 - Gosu.Linko - http://www.facebook.com/link0
Kiante
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7069 Posts
August 26 2010 04:24 GMT
#45
When i play pure mech i make a ton of hellions. they're great buffers for your tanks, easy to micro out of storm, and all the splash they cause deals nicely with mass zealots and immo shields while the tanks melt everything. Also means you can focus on one lot of upgrades, and makes harass a no brainer. Also i've noticed once i get 2-3 reactored facts running i'm never running hot on minerals which is good, as i find that late game T i tend to end up with an excess
Writer
charlie420247
Profile Joined November 2009
United States692 Posts
August 26 2010 04:27 GMT
#46
Later on hellion harass isn't superb against toss either because (blink) stalkers can be warped in a substantial amount and protoss has the least trouble of all races to quickly replace probes (excess nexus energy).

not sure but ive lost all my drones at an expansion befor(20~ or so) and replaced them all in secods after the harrass is taken care of. zerg is by far the best race for replacing lost drones since you can make any number at one time.
there are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who dont.
kingcomrade
Profile Joined August 2007
United States115 Posts
August 26 2010 07:10 GMT
#47
Except it costs you your army production to do so, so that's not really true. If Zerg had infinity larvae it would be, but they don't so it's not.
N/A
Gnial
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada907 Posts
August 26 2010 07:34 GMT
#48
I hope T's start using hellions more. All this 'regular move'/'attack move' bio kiting micro is getting a little dry. Some hellion micro could REALLY make things interesting.

Also, my standard builds are great against any sort of early game hellion play. Hellions definitely have a place with bio in the late game when more zealots are likely to be on the field, bunching together all juicily - but a lot of P early play is lighter on zealots.
1, eh? 2, eh? 3, eh?
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
August 26 2010 07:47 GMT
#49
i like this post. my mmm play is pretty bad if i'm behind or in the late game, hellions definitely need closer attention in my gameplay.
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
panda_inc
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia170 Posts
August 26 2010 07:51 GMT
#50
i agree with the OP completely hellions are my worst nightmare. this thread should be hidden away somewhere. I have no problems handling bio but mech builds with helions and tanks drives me crazy.
Chunkybuddha
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada347 Posts
August 26 2010 07:52 GMT
#51
On August 26 2010 13:27 charlie420247 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Later on hellion harass isn't superb against toss either because (blink) stalkers can be warped in a substantial amount and protoss has the least trouble of all races to quickly replace probes (excess nexus energy).

not sure but ive lost all my drones at an expansion befor(20~ or so) and replaced them all in secods after the harrass is taken care of. zerg is by far the best race for replacing lost drones since you can make any number at one time.

Lol. OK, then you have no larva, gg next macro round.
USER WAS SEXUALLY ABUSED FOR THIS POST.
morimacil
Profile Joined March 2010
France921 Posts
August 26 2010 08:01 GMT
#52
The thing about hellions, is that they have crap dps. They really do.
Even with blue flame against light units, they still have pretty bad dps.
The common way to deal with that is to simply use their superior speed to avoid taking damage while you murder light units, which then essentially makes their lower dps irrelevant, since they can kite, and not take damage.

The other way to deal with their bad dps is to use them in melee range, abusing the splash. Then they actually end up having decent damage, even against stalkers for example. But then they are in the front line, and they also have a bad health-cost ratio, and so are not amazing to soak damage
Thus they are probably best left for harrassment, map control, and high templar sniping, instead of trying to incorporate them in an army.
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
August 26 2010 08:17 GMT
#53
listening to kawaiirice stream smack talking about this thread LOLOL, this is hilarious =)))
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
August 26 2010 10:24 GMT
#54
Pre-igniter hellions are just not worth it if you intend to go with a bio army otherwise. By the time you can be upgrading hellions with pre-igniter you should or could already be upgrading your infantry. A 1-1 marine is just better then a hellion on all occasions in battle because the hellion requires to be really upfront in battle.
Zealots just don't clump up the way zerglings do and zealots DPS kills hellions insanely fast, sure you can kite but the whole thing protoss thinks of during a game is using ways to prevent you kite. Marines just kite easier because they can be healed, hellions taking a few stalker shots means you need to repair or whatever which is just crap.

As for hellion drops, sure they are good but are they really worth the effort of pre-igniter? Beyond the early game a protoss will always have 6+ gateways ready to immediately warp in stalkers, offcourse you will get some probe kills if he responds late but you are also likely to lose the hellions and possibly the medivacs. Infantry drops imo are just as scary as hellion drops, as they can be done anywhere, not only the mineral line per se. Infantry drops are also much tougher to deal with by just stalkers as they usually drop mostly marauders. So it's less damage but also less risk for the terrran.

All in all, yes hellions can be good against a zealot HT army and yes they can harass well but are they worth it later on in most normal games? In my opinion not. Marines are just a better way to spend minerals.
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
August 26 2010 13:11 GMT
#55
On August 26 2010 17:17 NB wrote:
listening to kawaiirice stream smack talking about this thread LOLOL, this is hilarious =)))


What did he say?
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
August 26 2010 13:32 GMT
#56
Updated the OP with results from unit tester. Proper micro from each side would be better, but I think the results show pretty clearly that mixing in some hellions is an incredibly strong play. Overall, it doesn't hurt the strength of your main army while vastly improving your harassment capabilities.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
August 26 2010 15:03 GMT
#57
On August 26 2010 17:17 NB wrote:
listening to kawaiirice stream smack talking about this thread LOLOL, this is hilarious =)))


That's not exactly surprising. He's a Terran player who probably doesn't face many Protoss players who attempt to out-macro him. My strategy against Terran uses the efficiency of zealots to contest mid-game map control so that I can try to stay one base ahead of Terran. I'll grant that in 1-base play, hellions aren't great. But if P tries to play a macro game against T, hellions are INSANELY strong because they simultaneously act as perfect harass units and perfect main army muscle units.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
August 26 2010 15:10 GMT
#58
On August 26 2010 16:34 Gnial wrote:
I hope T's start using hellions more. All this 'regular move'/'attack move' bio kiting micro is getting a little dry. Some hellion micro could REALLY make things interesting.

Also, my standard builds are great against any sort of early game hellion play. Hellions definitely have a place with bio in the late game when more zealots are likely to be on the field, bunching together all juicily - but a lot of P early play is lighter on zealots.


Agreed, a lot of P players are opening with 1-base play right now. I know you like a stalker-void ray opening against T that transitions into chargelot/HT. It's definitely a strong opening, but I prefer a more macro-oriented opening. Like I said above, pre-ignitor hellions aren't worthwhile against a 1-base Protoss. As the game progresses, P will spread out over multiple bases, making hellion harass much harder to contain. At the same time, P will want to rely increasingly on zealots and HT (we both believe this to be the bread and butter mid-game PvT composition), so while hellion harass becomes more threating, hellions simultaneously become awesome head-to-head combat units. It's kind of ridiculous....
aznhockeyboy16
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States558 Posts
August 26 2010 15:11 GMT
#59
the whole point of hellions in a real fight is kind of negated though, if you can get your tanks sieged up. the bio army can just kite while the tanks take out all of the zealots. then the hellions do basically 0 damage to anything, so unless you wanted them to run into the base while you're still fighting their army, they aren't that useful.

however, if I'm up against high templar and somehow I have enough mineral left over from pumping marauders and tanks and vikings, I will get hellions, since marines just melt under storm and ff, but the extra gas needed to build the factories kind of makes it a little less appealing.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
August 26 2010 15:12 GMT
#60
On August 26 2010 16:52 Chunkybuddha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2010 13:27 charlie420247 wrote:
Later on hellion harass isn't superb against toss either because (blink) stalkers can be warped in a substantial amount and protoss has the least trouble of all races to quickly replace probes (excess nexus energy).

not sure but ive lost all my drones at an expansion befor(20~ or so) and replaced them all in secods after the harrass is taken care of. zerg is by far the best race for replacing lost drones since you can make any number at one time.

Lol. OK, then you have no larva, gg next macro round.

I love when zergs think rebuilding all their drones at once means they arent behind
Until they start to think thats like 20 hydralisks or something they could have had but they now dont have


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