EPT[D] TvP--why hellions are really really good against P - P…
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
On August 26 2010 04:23 kcdc wrote: Here's how I would use hellions vs P. + Show Spoiler + Open with two barracks and a factory. Pump MM and hellions while researching stim, conc shell, and pre-ignitor. Time the research such that stim and pre-ignitor finish about the same time. After the research finishes, you're essentially guaranteed to be stronger than P on an open field meaning you'll have map control, so start a command center inside your base shortly before the research finishes. Initiate a timing attack at completion of stim and pre-ignitor. If P pulls back into his main to forcefield his ramp, just use your force to maintain map control and deny expansions. Build a starport. P will be teching either HT or collosi. If collosi, add vikings and medivacs. If HT, just add medivacs. Use hellions for drops and run-bys, preferably in multiple locations simultaneously. As the game progresses, P will become increasingly spread out, making hellions stronger. I think you're talking about a lot of "what ifs". A lot of things need to be accounted for, that's basically a situation where everything has gone perfect for you and the rush distance isn't too far, that walk across the map could mean 2-4 more units for the protoss. It's just that after zealots die, hellions are just sort of... there. Sure they soak up damage, but they are kinda weak. Even if you hit them once or twice during the fight, that leaves them pretty vulnerable. Additionally, have you ever seen a probe surround a hellion? Hellion won't be getting too many kills. The key to the hellion is a support unit that basically is only dangerous if it's in the right place at the right time. Edit: Additionally, getting stim/ignitor at the same time means you probably dont' have combat shields, which significantly reduces the effectiveness of marines, stim a marine without combat shield. MEDIC! | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 26 2010 04:55 Sv1 wrote: I think you're talking about a lot of "what ifs". A lot of things need to be accounted for, that's basically a situation where everything has gone perfect for you and the rush distance isn't too far, that walk across the map could mean 2-4 more units for the protoss. It's just that after zealots die, hellions are just sort of... there. Sure they soak up damage, but they are kinda weak. Even if you hit them once or twice during the fight, that leaves them pretty vulnerable. Additionally, have you ever seen a probe surround a hellion? Hellion won't be getting too many kills. The key to the hellion is a support unit that basically is only dangerous if it's in the right place at the right time. Edit: Additionally, getting stim/ignitor at the same time means you probably dont' have combat shields, which significantly reduces the effectiveness of marines, stim a marine without combat shield. MEDIC! Ok, don't use them then. I'm primarily a Protoss player, and I win ~70% of my games vs T at ~850 diamond. I lose some games to poor control, but the only games where my play feels weak against Terran is when Terran uses hellions with pre-ignitor. Only 1 in 10 or so T players seems to get pre-ignitor, but when they do, I lose MUCH more often. At least against my style of play, pre-ignitor is the difference between me winning ~70% of the time and me winning ~30% of the time. | ||
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
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theburricane
United States65 Posts
P has seen that T is building up marauders and marines, so he decides to sway his gateway composition towards Zealots to tank for his damage dealers. But uh oh! P has seen that T is adding on quite a few Hellions into his composition. So many in fact that T must be planning to use them in his army and not just build a few for a drop/harassment. P knows this means 2 things: T will have fewer MM because of the minerals required for Hellions, and that T's tech be delayed because of the factory (and even more if T gets Igniter). So P knows his Zealots are going to have a harder time tanking than he would like, but that every Hellion T built is going to have horrible DPS vs armored, so P starts adding Stalkers instead of Zealots. The Zealots will fall quickly, but the Hellions will begin to loose their oomph the fewer light units they have to wail on. Then P and T could begin trying to mix up their compositions to catch the other off guard during the rest of the game. P also knows that the 100 gas that went into the factory is 100 gas that did not go into Stim or Combat Shields or 4 Marauders, and if he sees blue flames he knows that T is 150 gas farther in the hole. --- So what I'm saying with all this is NOT that it's a bad idea for Terrans to begin adding Hellions into their army composition. I think it's a great idea, exactly for the reasons OP stated. It's a great idea because it encourages the deepening of strategy: it encourages each player to keep tabs on each other's army and constantly assess their own composition, instead of sitting back and macroing up until one army wanders into the other. Now what I want to see is replays.  | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 26 2010 05:30 Sv1 wrote: Now now, I'm not discrediting you, and yes you made mention of your diamond status, I don't doubt it. I'm just simply saying that I don't see hellions with pre-igniter winning a game outright. I'm not trying to browbeat or brag about my league placement. I know I'm not a very good player. But I have played a lot, and in my experience, pre-ignitor hellions are insanely good against Protoss, and I think if T players haven't played around with them much, they really ought to try them out before dismissing them out of hand. Like Floop said, once you get 6 or so of them, zealots just evaporate leaving the squishy stalkers exposed. Better yet, sneaking just 2 of them into your opponent's main can often instantly win you the game. Given how awesome they are on both fronts, I just don't understand why more Terran players don't give them a shot. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-142776.jpg) Reposting this replay from another thread. Not great play by either player, I make plenty of mistakes and was pretty much winging it (like I always do, the baddie I am). I'm reposting it in this thread because there seem to be some naysayers, but let me say that hellions rape. I'm 100% positive I could have gotten more of them out faster since half the game I have like 1000 mins/gas in the bank. God I suck. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
However helions are great for harassing probe lines once protoss gets spread out on 3-4 bases and great for sniping stray HTs. They are also nice to harass zealots standing in the main army since there is nothing that can really slow them or instantly kill them. | ||
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On August 26 2010 05:51 ltortoise wrote: Reposting this replay from another thread. Not great play by either player, I make plenty of mistakes and was pretty much winging it (like I always do, the baddie I am). I'm reposting it in this thread because there seem to be some naysayers, but let me say that hellions rape. I'm 100% positive I could have gotten more of them out faster since half the game I have like 1000 mins/gas in the bank. God I suck. watching, I'll comment when I return Edit: Ok after watching this game all that really showed was the power of hellions if they're allowed to slip by into an undefended base. However, the argument can be made that the amount of damage these hellions did was disproportionate to the investment in them AND that there will always be these opportunities ESPECIALLY against protoss players for hellions to "do work". I am appalled by the protoss player's choice to go HT w/o a robo though... his own fault he lost. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
Hellions are severely underused vs P in both army compositions and harassment. It is ridiculous how effective they can be. Blue hellion surrounds on small packs of stalkers is reminiscent of spider mine surrounds on goons in BW. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 26 2010 09:56 Tump wrote: My practice partner rushes me with 6scvs/6hellions/6marines. It's pretty ridiculous. Hellions are severely underused vs P in both army compositions and harassment. It is ridiculous how effective they can be. Blue hellion surrounds on small packs of stalkers is reminiscent of spider mine surrounds on goons in BW. except blue flames don't actually do extra damage versus stalkers | ||
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fishball232
United States90 Posts
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On August 26 2010 09:58 kNyTTyM wrote: except blue flames don't actually do extra damage versus stalkers yea im an idiot, but still large packs of hellions with +damage upgrades can surround and rape stalkers in small groups (like when trying to defend an expansion from hellion aggression or moving out alone across the map, etc) | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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Cerion
213 Posts
On August 26 2010 10:13 Subversion wrote: how does pure mech actually fair TvP? seems it would be pretty good to me Voidrays become a huge problem if you don't have marines | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On August 26 2010 10:13 Subversion wrote: how does pure mech actually fair TvP? seems it would be pretty good to me Pure mech? The above poster says voids are the problem, but it seems like you could just make vikings... I think the problem would be immortals. You need either marines or ghosts to handle the immortals. Nothing on the mech tree can counter them. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 26 2010 09:56 Tump wrote: My practice partner rushes me with 6scvs/6hellions/6marines. It's pretty ridiculous. Hellions are severely underused vs P in both army compositions and harassment. It is ridiculous how effective they can be. Blue hellion surrounds on small packs of stalkers is reminiscent of spider mine surrounds on goons in BW. Repair + hellions can be very strong in the early game. That's another advantage they have over early game marines--you can heal them before starport tech. | ||
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sfdrew
United States201 Posts
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