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On August 25 2010 04:42 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Hmm, I just watched the ZvP on DQ. I felt that the protoss could've easily pumped immortals much faster after scouting with his observor. He also didn't chrono boost a lot and sat on 100. His first push could've easily had 2 more immortals and could've ended there. However, the build is still pretty viable, shuts down the air game pretty decently early on and just discourages it for the most part. Will continue watching.
Yeah, like I said, these are by no means top tier players, and I'm sure there are a lot of similar occurences. Basically, what I want to find out is whether this sort of play could be viable in the high tier, because if not, I'd rather practice something that is going to help me out when I get better, and start playing more competent people.
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thanks anger ill check it out.
just watched, and i must say that looked almost identical to my game, except the fact your expansion was connected with creep and at your natural i tried for the gold on kulas and ass fucked my self, was producing queens early out of those two hatches and couldnt get enough over to my main as i had 2 at my gold just hanging out and ended up losing from there on haha. prob shudnt mention i sent the 2 queens off creep over too help n by the time they got there, the home world had been dickbeamed to death :<
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I think one trick for Queens vs Voids that could play out well would be using burrow to prevent the Voids from charging. Just burrow whichever queen is being focused, or heck, all of them if he is not focus firing. They will have to switch to something else unless an obs is along. Unborrow right away and continue to focus down uncharged voids.
This does require you to put DPS on the void very quickly, and not let it charge up on a building or overlord. On maps with close destructible rocks Hydras are probably just going to be required.
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On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
I've played this style (mass queens with roach+infestor) a lot and off multiple different opening. There are two things I lose to:
-Fast ultras if i get behind eco really early, ie make a mistake and let banelings kill most of my drones.
-roaches off a better eco (i.e you made mistakes to get behind), even here he needs a lot more to beat you.
-hydra/roach i'm not convinced is much better than roach, since 1 good flank makes it worse than pure roach and its more expensive, why not get infestors instead?
Things thing crushes even if you do get behind.
-Muta/ling. Whatever you call "map control" is gone as soon as infestors get 75 energy, it takes 2-3 infestors and your queens to not shut down but literally kill any mutas that get in range of a fungal. Fungal also 1 shots banelings and brings lings down to pathetic hp, although +2 roaches 2 shot anything but +2 armour lings anyway.
-Broodlords. You can't get to broodlords and even if you do neutral//fungal+kill with queens is really good. Once i let him get broodlrods 3 base vs 3 base but i had ultra at that stage which are way too mobile to lose you just need corruptors.
-Mass expo with spine crawler and muta. Tranfusion + roach is very good against spine crawler and as I said muta are worthless with infestors and queen on the field. 4 Fungals alone can take down like 5-6 minimum muta and 3 takes them all down to almost no hp. 1-2 locks them down enough for queens to kill a lot as well.
Ways of getting there:
1: Standard opening and when you both go mutas, spare minerals go on queens and you stop making mutas and get either corruptors or just go straight to roaches and infestors while pumping more queens. If he sticks muta its not good for him but getting a quick third and going roaches is probably the best.
2: The zelniq FE but only works on some maps and you can't let him morph banelings anywhere near you until he gets speed otherwise you're kinda screwed, maybe need a third or forth spine crawler because as zelniq said roaches are slow. Also you can tranfuse a spinecrawler just as the first banelings are hitting it if you get lucky =P
3: Roaches into FE on a map like Kulas where speedling isn't all that safe.
4: Ling baneling into FE and don't get mutas get queens instead.
I might post some replays in a bit.
Blindly going mass queens in every game isn't good, but there are definitely situations where it is just very good. Even in muta/corruptor air wars tranfusion is really, really good, and they're good anti air in general to help bolster your air army on creep. Nydus worms are necessary for this on maps like desert because you can't creep enough of the map. ovi speed helps, but slow queens are fast enough in most maps if he's going muta heavy.
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On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
:'( :'(
on topic: as zelniq said, its pretty unreasonable to secure an early expansion vs ling/baneling. in my experience, you need something more than just 1 hatch queens to defend air, either hydras, spores, or a second hatch in the main as was suggested in this thread. however, one base vs two base is pretty hard to play with this, as mutas can poke back into your main and shut you down.
I think the only reasonable follow up to this is to try to put pressure on and delay his expansion/drone count (enough roaches can usually force additional spines/lings to make him feel safe), and then take your own expansion and try to get ahead in economy. stuff like roach runby, burrow at the natural to delay the expansion, and burrowing in multiple places to be annoying is necessary.
also even at the mid diamond level, some people (particularly bw veterans) can utilize and micro mutas noticably better than any new-to-sc player, and this makes mobility harder than you might have experienced in your own ladder games.
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On August 25 2010 04:20 Zelniq wrote:
queens are really really good zvz but the problem with that build I showed on the day9daily is that a standard baneling build (9 OL,14 gas 13 pool, speed first then baneling nest) will actually kill the 2 spines + expansion hatchery before roaches can get out, especially if they control properly.. idra quite easily showed me that. I haven't put the effort/time into finding a good opener to make it work, I'd guess one exists..just don't know it yet.
im lazy to msg everyone so if a good zerg cares to help me find one PM me and we can play a few
I've tested that opening quite a lot with a friend of mine - like 20 games in a row, only Baneling bust vs 15 hatch. We found that you're much better off getting more Spine Crawlers than Roaches. This eliminates the vulnerable timing window. However, our game plans did not involve a Roach/Queen midgame push. Rather we preferred rushing to Ultra/Queen or Hydra/Infestor if the opponents goes mass air so we didn't suffer from not getting the Roaches.
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On August 25 2010 05:37 Slayer91 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that? I've played this style (mass queens with roach+infestor) a lot and off multiple different opening. There are two things I lose to: -Fast ultras if i get behind eco really early, ie make a mistake and let banelings kill most of my drones. -roaches off a better eco (i.e you made mistakes to get behind), even here he needs a lot more to beat you. -hydra/roach i'm not convinced is much better than roach, since 1 good flank makes it worse than pure roach and its more expensive, why not get infestors instead? Things thing crushes even if you do get behind. -Muta/ling. Whatever you call "map control" is gone as soon as infestors get 75 energy, it takes 2-3 infestors and your queens to not shut down but literally kill any mutas that get in range of a fungal. Fungal also 1 shots banelings and brings lings down to pathetic hp, although +2 roaches 2 shot anything but +2 armour lings anyway. -Broodlords. You can't get to broodlords and even if you do neutral//fungal+kill with queens is really good. Once i let him get broodlrods 3 base vs 3 base but i had ultra at that stage which are way too mobile to lose you just need corruptors. -Mass expo with spine crawler and muta. Tranfusion + roach is very good against spine crawler and as I said muta are worthless with infestors and queen on the field. 4 Fungals alone can take down like 5-6 minimum muta and 3 takes them all down to almost no hp. 1-2 locks them down enough for queens to kill a lot as well. Ways of getting there: 1: Standard opening and when you both go mutas, spare minerals go on queens and you stop making mutas and get either corruptors or just go straight to roaches and infestors while pumping more queens. If he sticks muta its not good for him but getting a quick third and going roaches is probably the best. 2: The zelniq FE but only works on some maps and you can't let him morph banelings anywhere near you until he gets speed otherwise you're kinda screwed, maybe need a third or forth spine crawler because as zelniq said roaches are slow. Also you can tranfuse a spinecrawler just as the first banelings are hitting it if you get lucky =P 3: Roaches into FE on a map like Kulas where speedling isn't all that safe. 4: Ling baneling into FE and don't get mutas get queens instead. I might post some replays in a bit. Blindly going mass queens in every game isn't good, but there are definitely situations where it is just very good. Even in muta/corruptor air wars tranfusion is really, really good, and they're good anti air in general to help bolster your air army on creep. Nydus worms are necessary for this on maps like desert because you can't creep enough of the map. ovi speed helps, but slow queens are fast enough in most maps if he's going muta heavy.
I still don't care much for opening mass queen. In my experience as the other player my response can simply be this...
1. Pump drones, no attack is coming anytime soon so drone and expand away
2. Keep pressure with lings -> pressure with mutas (don't over commit to mutas) or just go right into roach/hydra.
3. Start massing queens as well, but a bit delayed. You'll have less queens, but more upgrades/ground troops. Especially nice is a critical mass of hydra or roaches that can 1 volley a queen.
To FE with mass queens (or FE in general) you need to cut corners to get the expo secured vs lings and generally make roaches. In almost all cases the cut corners is going to be more than what the offensive player has to cut. Doubly so if they hit you with some mutas or lings and do actual economic damage or keep you off a 3rd. With mass queens holding a 3rd early on is tough to manage.
Basically I feel like vs mass queens there's not a whole lot of threat until they can creep their way over to you. This opens you up to do a little harassing into a big economic boom. To then survive the resulting battle you get your own queens + roach/hydra to target fire any enemy queens you can.
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On August 25 2010 04:54 ryanAnger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I do it before Lair, typically, unless my opponent is doing something that requires an early lair. The goal is to have at least 1 Queen building at all times until you have about 8-10, so putting a hatch down before Lair supports that. What I normally do is put the hatch down, and when its about 75% done, get Lair. On another note, the other thing about this strat is that you only need 1 gas for the first 7-10 minutes, because splings, Queens, and Roaches prove to be a good amount of defense. Of course, you can opt to go 2 gas, and start getting your range/armor upgrades, but thats completely up to you whether your opponent is being aggressive or not. @lightrise - Of the games I've lost, it was because I just didn't play well enough, specifically, scouting. I neglected to scout someone going Mass Collossi to counter my Roach Hydra Queen, and I didn't scout a Stalker/Immortal Push, so that caught me off guard and killed me. The only ZvZ I lost was because I put my 2 Queens on the ramp to block, but I forgot to tell them to hold. He ran in w/ Speedlings, disrupted my Queens, and then ran by them and destroyed my mineral line. Like I said, all player error, and not necessarily anything wrong with the strategy. To the guy asking about Void Rays - here is a replay against Void Rays. http://www.mediafire.com/?cczimi7w5synd6x
On the last attack he used no forcefields, that could have ripped the whole zerg army apart. And I don't like giving my enemy mapcontrol for free.
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Okay, perhaps the title could have been changed a bit. When I say "Mass Queens" I mean more than the average. Typically 3 per hatch. But Queens are not the only combat units I build. I'll build Roaches, Hydra, or Muta depending on the MU. It feels like with 7-8 Queens you can have a better eco than your opponent, as well as better defenses.
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I played it once. It is very very powerful on map with short rush distances. The force of queen/roach will just march across the map and pwn you. The counter to this with a muta build I think you'd have to get overseer quick and snipe the creep tumors to delay his push. And I don't see this build work out well on long distance maps. You NEED creeps, you really really need it.
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I find queens are useless in ZvP unless the opponent is getting lots of air.
That said, queens are very good in zvz, and very good in ZvT. For ZvZ I use them mid-late game vs mutas (both defense and offense), but nothing else.
For ZvT I use them with infestors and zerglings as anti-air, as well as to heal the infestors, as well as late-game to heal ultralisks or corruptors or brood lords.
Infestors on their own can kill air a bit, but it uses a buttload of energy, infested terrans to kill the air, and fungal to keep them there. This is why queens are so useful, since ZvT hydras are pretty horrible.
Like I said with protoss though, I don't see any use for queens except I guess end-game where you get brood lords and corruptors. I mean i guess they are also a bit decent mid-game where you can heal left-over corruptors after attacking colossus, but generally you can do that with the 3-5 queens you'll have normally.
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On August 25 2010 05:46 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 05:37 Slayer91 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that? I've played this style (mass queens with roach+infestor) a lot and off multiple different opening. There are two things I lose to: -Fast ultras if i get behind eco really early, ie make a mistake and let banelings kill most of my drones. -roaches off a better eco (i.e you made mistakes to get behind), even here he needs a lot more to beat you. -hydra/roach i'm not convinced is much better than roach, since 1 good flank makes it worse than pure roach and its more expensive, why not get infestors instead? Things thing crushes even if you do get behind. -Muta/ling. Whatever you call "map control" is gone as soon as infestors get 75 energy, it takes 2-3 infestors and your queens to not shut down but literally kill any mutas that get in range of a fungal. Fungal also 1 shots banelings and brings lings down to pathetic hp, although +2 roaches 2 shot anything but +2 armour lings anyway. -Broodlords. You can't get to broodlords and even if you do neutral//fungal+kill with queens is really good. Once i let him get broodlrods 3 base vs 3 base but i had ultra at that stage which are way too mobile to lose you just need corruptors. -Mass expo with spine crawler and muta. Tranfusion + roach is very good against spine crawler and as I said muta are worthless with infestors and queen on the field. 4 Fungals alone can take down like 5-6 minimum muta and 3 takes them all down to almost no hp. 1-2 locks them down enough for queens to kill a lot as well. Ways of getting there: 1: Standard opening and when you both go mutas, spare minerals go on queens and you stop making mutas and get either corruptors or just go straight to roaches and infestors while pumping more queens. If he sticks muta its not good for him but getting a quick third and going roaches is probably the best. 2: The zelniq FE but only works on some maps and you can't let him morph banelings anywhere near you until he gets speed otherwise you're kinda screwed, maybe need a third or forth spine crawler because as zelniq said roaches are slow. Also you can tranfuse a spinecrawler just as the first banelings are hitting it if you get lucky =P 3: Roaches into FE on a map like Kulas where speedling isn't all that safe. 4: Ling baneling into FE and don't get mutas get queens instead. I might post some replays in a bit. Blindly going mass queens in every game isn't good, but there are definitely situations where it is just very good. Even in muta/corruptor air wars tranfusion is really, really good, and they're good anti air in general to help bolster your air army on creep. Nydus worms are necessary for this on maps like desert because you can't creep enough of the map. ovi speed helps, but slow queens are fast enough in most maps if he's going muta heavy. I still don't care much for opening mass queen. In my experience as the other player my response can simply be this... 1. Pump drones, no attack is coming anytime soon so drone and expand away 2. Keep pressure with lings -> pressure with mutas (don't over commit to mutas) or just go right into roach/hydra. 3. Start massing queens as well, but a bit delayed. You'll have less queens, but more upgrades/ground troops. Especially nice is a critical mass of hydra or roaches that can 1 volley a queen. To FE with mass queens (or FE in general) you need to cut corners to get the expo secured vs lings and generally make roaches. In almost all cases the cut corners is going to be more than what the offensive player has to cut. Doubly so if they hit you with some mutas or lings and do actual economic damage or keep you off a 3rd. With mass queens holding a 3rd early on is tough to manage. Basically I feel like vs mass queens there's not a whole lot of threat until they can creep their way over to you. This opens you up to do a little harassing into a big economic boom. To then survive the resulting battle you get your own queens + roach/hydra to target fire any enemy queens you can.
Well, it depends on how you play it.
1: I get upgrades faster because I'm spending money on an early evolution chamber for 2x spore anyway. (2 Evo roach can catch up though)
2: I'm expanding the same time you are because I don't need to worry about muta harass now. Pressure with lings doesn't really matter because roaches and queens are more than sufficient to kill zerglings and if you make too many lings you don't have enough drones. If I opened from banelings lings definitely aren't an issue.
3: I use queens as strictly anti mutalisk. When you stop making mutas I just go straight up roach infestor, but whatever queens remain I can use to tranfuse thereby making them efficient. After that I find more queens take up too much space and are too slow to compete in a more mobile midgame zvz, but the aim is get an advantage against a muta build by defending with pure minerals and spending gas on infestors and getting upgrades leaving you with a stronger army.
Also, the once people start to get ultras which are basically the ultimate zvz unit to start massing (roach hydra broodlord probably wins in a 200/200 fight but if you attack each other at all broodlords don't compete once theres not that much support), any queens that stay alive can transfuse, 1 full energy queen can heal 2 ultra from half life to full. That's pretty massive so people will probably end up going queen/ultra especially for the anti muta and the fact that queens tank ultra damage extremely well (effectively having about 350-400 "armoured" hp)
I don't really find queens as a straight up unit that good, which I think is the intended unit design. As a support caster and anti-air they're really good for 150 minerals. The only caster//healer unit that doesn't cost gas.
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Queens upgrade very, very well though. When I do a similar build, I always rush my range upgrade, which takes their ground attack from 4x2 to 5x2, and their AA from 9 to 10. Carapace upgrade is also very good since they will make each transfuse more effective (i.e. healing more hits).
In ZvP, I think the queens have a different role. Obviously they're very good AA, but they can also tank very well for your Hydras. They're big, so not a lot of them get hit by colossus or storm, and they can fire AA against colossus so they can target fire them in the back while transfusing. Finally, they have the best armor type in the game (i.e. simply Bio), so they're actually good vs immortals and stalkers as well. Queen/Hydra/Infestor is viable vs pretty much anything toss throws at you.
Since Hydras are already very slow, their mobility is not such a big concern, and they are godlike late-game since they can keep your ultras alive longer, actually allowing them to attack their targets. Queen/Broodlords is also a powerful combo, having the longest AA range zerg can get combined with the longest AtG range. The only downside is that your melee attack won't be upgraded.
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Hey guys... /nod to Evan the bouncy (I'm the one who used it on him at a local tournament).
I use Queens vs all Zerg match ups. It is a slightly different build than Day9s daily, however it was inspired by it. I am a Rank 30 ~600 diamond and I always use this opener.
I RARELY lose the mirror match. I will PM you Zelniq and I am gladly willing to show you my build :D
Raw.907 if you want to scrim.
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I'm sort of skipping over a few threads here but I just want to add my 2 cents for ZvP with this..which is it probably won't go too far. I inadvertently was forced to use this strat when my warm up partner decided it would be awesome to Phoenix harass into void ray - being that I have a disdain for all "towers" I went for multiple queens, I'll check if I still have the replay because until you get hydras pumping (towers wont really help anyhow) graviton beam with enough phoenixes to out number your queens is hard enough to deal with let alone once voids come in if you werent lucky enough to decently handle the phoenix ....GG -- viable?? Perhaps but personally I think p air is way to easily proxied to begin with (if that's the way they're trying to serve the dish) and if they scout your oddities chrono boosted phoenixes pump faster than wonka's factory and the Swedish pumps austin powers loves so much...I'd have to try it against a decent t I'm too tired to think about it but it seems a queen/roach mid game push with tumored map control would be "decent". With good transfusions... I seem to remember it beinging practical in the beta idk about nowaday-terran
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I am actually pretty impressed seeing this, you dealth with reapers well, same with many other things.
I haven't had the time to watch all the replays, but how do you fare against banelings? seems like they might give you trouble here
Edit: this seems like a good way to setup a good mid-late game macro game where zerg can dominate.
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watched the replays. im not that familiar yet with sc2 but i think theres a lot of potential in that strat. since you have that many queens but in almost all the reps you didnt have to use transfuse vs early agression i guess there is space to cut corners and expand earlier which would result in an even stronger midgame.
same goes for creepspread which wasnt constant in any of those reps. with even more spread it is probably the most powerful z midgame build order ive seen so far. better then the FE builds since by the time you get into midgame the macro just kicks in.
also the saved up gas gets very early upgrades which are crucial and allow some intresting composition switches in the midgame.
well to sum it up: this build could very well become a good counter/safe build order vs Z banelings, reaperabuse and 2gates. its easier to defend 1 base and doesnt cost you a lot economic drawback. if you cut corners and expand early it might even be economically as strong as FE but way easier to defend...
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mass queen is definately viable especially in ZvZ
i personally play it without the hatch before pool thing bacause it is just way too risky in ZvZ
but after i get some roaches => expand
and than just mass queens and roaches
you'll have to attack before he gets the crittical mass of mutalisks or he'll onehit the queens
attack works fine on bigger maps with nydus and overlord drop (drop prefered because of creep spread after drop)
i'll post some replays perhaps
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I have a quick question about this strategy, and zerg in general. Do larva ever die if you don't use them?
Can you just keep massing larva even if you're not making anything out of them, and they'll last forever? I'm not actually a zerg player, so I don't know.
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no they dont die. i dont know though if there is a max cap for larva, basically if u have saved up enough larva you can instantly morph 200 supply...
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EPT
