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EDIT 2: When I say Mass Queens, I mean 8-10. I do not mean enough Queens to attack with. Rarely ever do I actually attack with the Queens I make, they are purely for defensive and economical reasons. My attacking force consists of the usual, the difference is that I will have more than my opponent, and be able to reinforce 2-3 times faster. PLEASE!!! Watch the replays.
EDIT: I'll preface this with the fact that though I'm only a mediocre diamond (as Saracen so delicately put it, in his most recent, excellent post) at 500 points, I feel like my understanding of the game is very good, and my issue is that I simply don't have the mechanics to back it up. That being said, I feel like this could be how Zerg was intended to be played by Blizzard, and I'm hoping some top level players will take this "skeleton" of a strategy, and flesh it out.
I've been working on a strategy revolving around mass queens in ALL matchups, as you would assume from the title. Thus far, it has worked quite well. Keep in mind, I am only ~500 Diamond at the moment, but I hope you guys seeing my strategy will open up new possibilities. In the last 16 games I've played on the ladder, I've won 13, and each of the them was with this strat.
I don't have an exact build order at the moment, because this is more of an "idea" you have when you play it, as opposed to an exact science, so I ask that you watch all of the following replays to see how it works.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63377-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63378-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63382-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63384-1v1-terran-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63385-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63386-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
I think the biggest strong points in this strategy is that your unit production capability is dramatically increased. With so many Queens and Hatches, every time you need to reinforce, it feels like you have been sitting at 200/200 and just hoarding larva for 5 minutes.
The Queens allow for extremely good defensive play, and pretty much negate any air he tries to harrass you with. (Goodbye Muta Harrass!!!) Also, Transfuse makes them extremely valuable as combat units, assuming you have the micro to do it right.
Anyway, I feel like so much more could be said by seeing the replays.
Let me know what you guys think!!!
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Calgary25969 Posts
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
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Chill, I'm sure you've seen Day[9]'s Mass Queens daily? The one w/ Zelniq playing? If so, it is basically just like that.
You get 2 queens early enough to block the ramp from Banelings, and follow up with Roaches to replace the Queens as a wall. (In these particular replays, I didn't see a Baneling ZvZ, but it has happened and I did fine.)
The thing is, you don't really need map control. When you're sitting on 2 bases, spreading creep everywhere, with your 6-10 Queens, Muta Harrass might as well be non-existent. If they go heavy Muta, you add in some Hydras, but I've seen 8 Queens take out a mass of like 15 Muta with absolutely no issues.
I guarantee your production capabilities will be stronger than your opponent, because you'll have 3 hatches on 2 bases, while he only has 2 hatches, so you basically sit at home, get your ranged/armor upgrades and build a good force of Roach, Queen, and throw in some Hydra. GG.
One of the replays has a perfect example of this. My opponent tried to get me w/ Muta and it just didn't work.
EDIT:
I should clarify what I mean by "you don't really need map control". This build is very defensive, and definitely a power play. You do whats necessary to maintain a good economy and once you get like 20-25 2/2 Speed Roaches throw them at his base. Do as much damage to his army/base as possible, and even if your attack is thwarted, you'll have complete reinforced your army within seconds.
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On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3743156/ I think the key is that queens can block your ramp and prevent bling runbys. later on queens can destroy mutas without any problems believe it or not. As with any strat theres a lot of variables so i think ill leave most of the explaining to the replays and that vid.
EDIT: Nice post Ryan, beat me to it 
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whoa. gotta see how mass queens on ZvP and ZvT is gonna do. brb to watch the replays!
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Ive never purposely tried this strat but, 10min ago i was on kulas ravine, and my overlord scouted a proxy stargate (complete) i had 1 queen out at the time, built my second and as he arrived i had two queens fended it off fairly easy. Then in the next 2/3 minutes he sent 4 void rays in and i was still massing queens thinking he was committing to the voidrays and i was right. Soon as the void rays were charged my 5/6 queens got completely fucked. I retreated too my hidden gold which was saturated had around 8 queens when he pushed in with the rest of his void rays and it just failed it seems that unit destroys this strat. I dunno im just rambling because im so angry, but if i were to try this strat what else can i do vs a mass void ray strat? ( i mean i even broke both his rocks down at his natural and destroyed all his probes with my 12 or so zerglings but it still wasnt enough it felt like my queens were doing nothing vs them in the end. Yeah and i was spamming transfuse but the pure dps output on the rays seem too hard to handle i ran out of energy in the end.
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You know, I actually haven't dealt with Void Rays with this build yet, but it seems like Queens should still do well against them, especially if it is only 4. I could be dead wrong though, and i would probably have transitioned to Hydras real quick, to supplement your Queens.
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Yeah, thats what i figured, i think i let the voidrays get charged up on an overlord or something i cant remember but all i remember was them dropping like sacks of shit. I was all over the place because my expansion was so far away and my micro and everything just went too hell haha... i think it was just me being terrible ;/
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On August 25 2010 03:58 ryanAnger wrote:
You know, I actually haven't dealt with Void Rays with this build yet, but it seems like Queens should still do well against them, especially if it is only 4. I could be dead wrong though, and i would probably have transitioned to Hydras real quick, to supplement your Queens.
you need hydras or mutas by that time,to defend againts 3+ voids
queens are good for defence,if you havent upgraded to lair by that time then he hits with first void
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I think one of the major problems with this build in ZvZ (or any mathcup for that matter) is that you need to rely on expanding creep all the way to your opponents base to mount any sort of offense. I mean it's easy to sit back and defend with your tons of hatches and queens, but that's not going to win you the game. If your opponent has map control with Mutas, he can simply use muta/overseer to snipe all your creep tumors and prevent you from expanding creep up to his base. Then your queens are pretty much useless since they are so damn slow off creep and your opponent is free to expand all over the place..
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I think the play is good against terran but you probally could have gotten a ultralisk cavern a lot sooner and the drop you did on metaloplis was fail because you went in he saw it then he got his tanks into postion but it seemed to work nice against the reaper strat maybe a little faster on the expands and ultras and this could be very good
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The other day I played a 4v4 and some guy did something like this, but instead of like 5-10, he had maybe 30+ queens, and was sitting on about 5 bases with about 12 hatches, and like 40 zerglings, I really didnt understand why he did that as my hydras just took a massive dump on them and there was just blood on creep where his bases and units were. He kept trying to transfuse but they died anyway.
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On August 25 2010 04:05 stk01001 wrote:
I think one of the major problems with this build in ZvZ (or any mathcup for that matter) is that you need to rely on expanding creep all the way to your opponents base to mount any sort of offense. I mean it's easy to sit back and defend with your tons of hatches and queens, but that's not going to win you the game. If your opponent has map control with Mutas, he can simply use muta/overseer to snipe all your creep tumors and prevent you from expanding creep up to his base. Then your queens are pretty much useless since they are so damn slow off creep and your opponent is free to expand all over the place..
Well, in all of the matchups, the Queens are really just there to provide excellent defense and production capabilities. The Queens are never really your win condition. You win by out-producing your opponent significantly.
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United States7166 Posts
queens are really really good zvz but the problem with that build I showed on the day9daily is that a standard baneling build (9 OL,14 gas 13 pool, speed first then baneling nest) will actually kill the 2 spines + expansion hatchery before roaches can get out, especially if they control properly.. idra quite easily showed me that. I haven't put the effort/time into finding a good opener to make it work, I'd guess one exists..just don't know it yet.
im lazy to msg everyone so if a good zerg cares to help me find one PM me and we can play a few
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as for queens vs T, i havent watched replays but I know they are very situational. vs marauders / bio, queens are unable to attack and get easily kited, so only useful for the transfuse, which is not worth it on all zerg units in that scenario until you get ultras/broodlords (in which case it's actually pretty damn gr9). if however theyre going pure mech, roach and a few queens for transfuse could be very useful to break some entrenched, forward tank positions. in general though mass queens are a bad idea vs terran ground as they are not able to use their ground attack vs terran due to their long ranged army, + concussive shells. For defending, however, their ground to ground attacks could be useful vs the slow thors or immobile tanks
a big issue for queens vs non zerg is the lack of creep makes it hard/impossible to attack with it..if you can manage to get good creep spread..maybe..
as for queens vs P
yet again the creep spread is another issue, as to some extent force fields, and stalker micro (even without blink).. but they are alright for defense. lategame once again transfuse is useful on ultras/broodlords..it always is.
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Zelniq, I'm nowhere near as good as you, but what I've been doing is playing 1 base until after Lair, but I build a 2nd hatch in my main, for the Queen production. I tried doing the FE version, but it was way too vulnerable. Defending the ramp is actually pretty easy the way I've been doing it.
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All i can say is i love to see stuff like this. Im not an expert zerg player by any means because i play toss but new ideas is what the game needs. Not sure about the timings exactly, but what happens if the other zerg just 16 pools to keep up with you production. Eitherway keep improving the strat!
Also what have u lost to with this build and what gave u troubles
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On August 25 2010 03:50 velvetone wrote:
Ive never purposely tried this strat but, 10min ago i was on kulas ravine, and my overlord scouted a proxy stargate (complete) i had 1 queen out at the time, built my second and as he arrived i had two queens fended it off fairly easy. Then in the next 2/3 minutes he sent 4 void rays in and i was still massing queens thinking he was committing to the voidrays and i was right. Soon as the void rays were charged my 5/6 queens got completely fucked. I retreated too my hidden gold which was saturated had around 8 queens when he pushed in with the rest of his void rays and it just failed it seems that unit destroys this strat. I dunno im just rambling because im so angry, but if i were to try this strat what else can i do vs a mass void ray strat? ( i mean i even broke both his rocks down at his natural and destroyed all his probes with my 12 or so zerglings but it still wasnt enough it felt like my queens were doing nothing vs them in the end. Yeah and i was spamming transfuse but the pure dps output on the rays seem too hard to handle i ran out of energy in the end.
i feel you sir. i think the void ray mechanics need to be altered. blizzard implemented the charge aspect of vrays to make them balanced (since obviously, a fully charged vray from the start is not fair). HOWEVER, in essence it basically is charged. the P player simply charges on your extractor and by the time human reaction time kicks in, the vrays are nearly fully charged (if not fully charged already). this is why i believe the void ray mechanics need to be tweaked in some way.
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United States7166 Posts
On August 25 2010 04:27 ryanAnger wrote:
Zelniq, I'm nowhere near as good as you, but what I've been doing is playing 1 base until after Lair, but I build a 2nd hatch in my main, for the Queen production. I tried doing the FE version, but it was way too vulnerable. Defending the ramp is actually pretty easy the way I've been doing it.
you get a 2nd hatch in main when? before lair/ early in lair morph?
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Hmm, I just watched the ZvP on DQ. I felt that the protoss could've easily pumped immortals much faster after scouting with his observor. He also didn't chrono boost a lot and sat on 100. His first push could've easily had 2 more immortals and could've ended there. However, the build is still pretty viable, shuts down the air game pretty decently early on and just discourages it for the most part. Will continue watching.
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I do it before Lair, typically, unless my opponent is doing something that requires an early lair. The goal is to have at least 1 Queen building at all times until you have about 8-10, so putting a hatch down before Lair supports that.
What I normally do is put the hatch down, and when its about 75% done, get Lair.
On another note, the other thing about this strat is that you only need 1 gas for the first 7-10 minutes, because splings, Queens, and Roaches prove to be a good amount of defense. Of course, you can opt to go 2 gas, and start getting your range/armor upgrades, but thats completely up to you whether your opponent is being aggressive or not.
@lightrise - Of the games I've lost, it was because I just didn't play well enough, specifically, scouting. I neglected to scout someone going Mass Collossi to counter my Roach Hydra Queen, and I didn't scout a Stalker/Immortal Push, so that caught me off guard and killed me. The only ZvZ I lost was because I put my 2 Queens on the ramp to block, but I forgot to tell them to hold. He ran in w/ Speedlings, disrupted my Queens, and then ran by them and destroyed my mineral line. Like I said, all player error, and not necessarily anything wrong with the strategy.
To the guy asking about Void Rays - here is a replay against Void Rays. http://www.mediafire.com/?cczimi7w5synd6x
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On August 25 2010 04:42 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Hmm, I just watched the ZvP on DQ. I felt that the protoss could've easily pumped immortals much faster after scouting with his observor. He also didn't chrono boost a lot and sat on 100. His first push could've easily had 2 more immortals and could've ended there. However, the build is still pretty viable, shuts down the air game pretty decently early on and just discourages it for the most part. Will continue watching.
Yeah, like I said, these are by no means top tier players, and I'm sure there are a lot of similar occurences. Basically, what I want to find out is whether this sort of play could be viable in the high tier, because if not, I'd rather practice something that is going to help me out when I get better, and start playing more competent people.
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thanks anger ill check it out.
just watched, and i must say that looked almost identical to my game, except the fact your expansion was connected with creep and at your natural i tried for the gold on kulas and ass fucked my self, was producing queens early out of those two hatches and couldnt get enough over to my main as i had 2 at my gold just hanging out and ended up losing from there on haha. prob shudnt mention i sent the 2 queens off creep over too help n by the time they got there, the home world had been dickbeamed to death :<
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I think one trick for Queens vs Voids that could play out well would be using burrow to prevent the Voids from charging. Just burrow whichever queen is being focused, or heck, all of them if he is not focus firing. They will have to switch to something else unless an obs is along. Unborrow right away and continue to focus down uncharged voids.
This does require you to put DPS on the void very quickly, and not let it charge up on a building or overlord. On maps with close destructible rocks Hydras are probably just going to be required.
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On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
I've played this style (mass queens with roach+infestor) a lot and off multiple different opening. There are two things I lose to:
-Fast ultras if i get behind eco really early, ie make a mistake and let banelings kill most of my drones.
-roaches off a better eco (i.e you made mistakes to get behind), even here he needs a lot more to beat you.
-hydra/roach i'm not convinced is much better than roach, since 1 good flank makes it worse than pure roach and its more expensive, why not get infestors instead?
Things thing crushes even if you do get behind.
-Muta/ling. Whatever you call "map control" is gone as soon as infestors get 75 energy, it takes 2-3 infestors and your queens to not shut down but literally kill any mutas that get in range of a fungal. Fungal also 1 shots banelings and brings lings down to pathetic hp, although +2 roaches 2 shot anything but +2 armour lings anyway.
-Broodlords. You can't get to broodlords and even if you do neutral//fungal+kill with queens is really good. Once i let him get broodlrods 3 base vs 3 base but i had ultra at that stage which are way too mobile to lose you just need corruptors.
-Mass expo with spine crawler and muta. Tranfusion + roach is very good against spine crawler and as I said muta are worthless with infestors and queen on the field. 4 Fungals alone can take down like 5-6 minimum muta and 3 takes them all down to almost no hp. 1-2 locks them down enough for queens to kill a lot as well.
Ways of getting there:
1: Standard opening and when you both go mutas, spare minerals go on queens and you stop making mutas and get either corruptors or just go straight to roaches and infestors while pumping more queens. If he sticks muta its not good for him but getting a quick third and going roaches is probably the best.
2: The zelniq FE but only works on some maps and you can't let him morph banelings anywhere near you until he gets speed otherwise you're kinda screwed, maybe need a third or forth spine crawler because as zelniq said roaches are slow. Also you can tranfuse a spinecrawler just as the first banelings are hitting it if you get lucky =P
3: Roaches into FE on a map like Kulas where speedling isn't all that safe.
4: Ling baneling into FE and don't get mutas get queens instead.
I might post some replays in a bit.
Blindly going mass queens in every game isn't good, but there are definitely situations where it is just very good. Even in muta/corruptor air wars tranfusion is really, really good, and they're good anti air in general to help bolster your air army on creep. Nydus worms are necessary for this on maps like desert because you can't creep enough of the map. ovi speed helps, but slow queens are fast enough in most maps if he's going muta heavy.
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On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
:'( :'(
on topic: as zelniq said, its pretty unreasonable to secure an early expansion vs ling/baneling. in my experience, you need something more than just 1 hatch queens to defend air, either hydras, spores, or a second hatch in the main as was suggested in this thread. however, one base vs two base is pretty hard to play with this, as mutas can poke back into your main and shut you down.
I think the only reasonable follow up to this is to try to put pressure on and delay his expansion/drone count (enough roaches can usually force additional spines/lings to make him feel safe), and then take your own expansion and try to get ahead in economy. stuff like roach runby, burrow at the natural to delay the expansion, and burrowing in multiple places to be annoying is necessary.
also even at the mid diamond level, some people (particularly bw veterans) can utilize and micro mutas noticably better than any new-to-sc player, and this makes mobility harder than you might have experienced in your own ladder games.
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On August 25 2010 04:20 Zelniq wrote:
queens are really really good zvz but the problem with that build I showed on the day9daily is that a standard baneling build (9 OL,14 gas 13 pool, speed first then baneling nest) will actually kill the 2 spines + expansion hatchery before roaches can get out, especially if they control properly.. idra quite easily showed me that. I haven't put the effort/time into finding a good opener to make it work, I'd guess one exists..just don't know it yet.
im lazy to msg everyone so if a good zerg cares to help me find one PM me and we can play a few
I've tested that opening quite a lot with a friend of mine - like 20 games in a row, only Baneling bust vs 15 hatch. We found that you're much better off getting more Spine Crawlers than Roaches. This eliminates the vulnerable timing window. However, our game plans did not involve a Roach/Queen midgame push. Rather we preferred rushing to Ultra/Queen or Hydra/Infestor if the opponents goes mass air so we didn't suffer from not getting the Roaches.
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On August 25 2010 05:37 Slayer91 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that? I've played this style (mass queens with roach+infestor) a lot and off multiple different opening. There are two things I lose to: -Fast ultras if i get behind eco really early, ie make a mistake and let banelings kill most of my drones. -roaches off a better eco (i.e you made mistakes to get behind), even here he needs a lot more to beat you. -hydra/roach i'm not convinced is much better than roach, since 1 good flank makes it worse than pure roach and its more expensive, why not get infestors instead? Things thing crushes even if you do get behind. -Muta/ling. Whatever you call "map control" is gone as soon as infestors get 75 energy, it takes 2-3 infestors and your queens to not shut down but literally kill any mutas that get in range of a fungal. Fungal also 1 shots banelings and brings lings down to pathetic hp, although +2 roaches 2 shot anything but +2 armour lings anyway. -Broodlords. You can't get to broodlords and even if you do neutral//fungal+kill with queens is really good. Once i let him get broodlrods 3 base vs 3 base but i had ultra at that stage which are way too mobile to lose you just need corruptors. -Mass expo with spine crawler and muta. Tranfusion + roach is very good against spine crawler and as I said muta are worthless with infestors and queen on the field. 4 Fungals alone can take down like 5-6 minimum muta and 3 takes them all down to almost no hp. 1-2 locks them down enough for queens to kill a lot as well. Ways of getting there: 1: Standard opening and when you both go mutas, spare minerals go on queens and you stop making mutas and get either corruptors or just go straight to roaches and infestors while pumping more queens. If he sticks muta its not good for him but getting a quick third and going roaches is probably the best. 2: The zelniq FE but only works on some maps and you can't let him morph banelings anywhere near you until he gets speed otherwise you're kinda screwed, maybe need a third or forth spine crawler because as zelniq said roaches are slow. Also you can tranfuse a spinecrawler just as the first banelings are hitting it if you get lucky =P 3: Roaches into FE on a map like Kulas where speedling isn't all that safe. 4: Ling baneling into FE and don't get mutas get queens instead. I might post some replays in a bit. Blindly going mass queens in every game isn't good, but there are definitely situations where it is just very good. Even in muta/corruptor air wars tranfusion is really, really good, and they're good anti air in general to help bolster your air army on creep. Nydus worms are necessary for this on maps like desert because you can't creep enough of the map. ovi speed helps, but slow queens are fast enough in most maps if he's going muta heavy.
I still don't care much for opening mass queen. In my experience as the other player my response can simply be this...
1. Pump drones, no attack is coming anytime soon so drone and expand away
2. Keep pressure with lings -> pressure with mutas (don't over commit to mutas) or just go right into roach/hydra.
3. Start massing queens as well, but a bit delayed. You'll have less queens, but more upgrades/ground troops. Especially nice is a critical mass of hydra or roaches that can 1 volley a queen.
To FE with mass queens (or FE in general) you need to cut corners to get the expo secured vs lings and generally make roaches. In almost all cases the cut corners is going to be more than what the offensive player has to cut. Doubly so if they hit you with some mutas or lings and do actual economic damage or keep you off a 3rd. With mass queens holding a 3rd early on is tough to manage.
Basically I feel like vs mass queens there's not a whole lot of threat until they can creep their way over to you. This opens you up to do a little harassing into a big economic boom. To then survive the resulting battle you get your own queens + roach/hydra to target fire any enemy queens you can.
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On August 25 2010 04:54 ryanAnger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I do it before Lair, typically, unless my opponent is doing something that requires an early lair. The goal is to have at least 1 Queen building at all times until you have about 8-10, so putting a hatch down before Lair supports that. What I normally do is put the hatch down, and when its about 75% done, get Lair. On another note, the other thing about this strat is that you only need 1 gas for the first 7-10 minutes, because splings, Queens, and Roaches prove to be a good amount of defense. Of course, you can opt to go 2 gas, and start getting your range/armor upgrades, but thats completely up to you whether your opponent is being aggressive or not. @lightrise - Of the games I've lost, it was because I just didn't play well enough, specifically, scouting. I neglected to scout someone going Mass Collossi to counter my Roach Hydra Queen, and I didn't scout a Stalker/Immortal Push, so that caught me off guard and killed me. The only ZvZ I lost was because I put my 2 Queens on the ramp to block, but I forgot to tell them to hold. He ran in w/ Speedlings, disrupted my Queens, and then ran by them and destroyed my mineral line. Like I said, all player error, and not necessarily anything wrong with the strategy. To the guy asking about Void Rays - here is a replay against Void Rays. http://www.mediafire.com/?cczimi7w5synd6x
On the last attack he used no forcefields, that could have ripped the whole zerg army apart. And I don't like giving my enemy mapcontrol for free.
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Okay, perhaps the title could have been changed a bit. When I say "Mass Queens" I mean more than the average. Typically 3 per hatch. But Queens are not the only combat units I build. I'll build Roaches, Hydra, or Muta depending on the MU. It feels like with 7-8 Queens you can have a better eco than your opponent, as well as better defenses.
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I played it once. It is very very powerful on map with short rush distances. The force of queen/roach will just march across the map and pwn you. The counter to this with a muta build I think you'd have to get overseer quick and snipe the creep tumors to delay his push. And I don't see this build work out well on long distance maps. You NEED creeps, you really really need it.
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I find queens are useless in ZvP unless the opponent is getting lots of air.
That said, queens are very good in zvz, and very good in ZvT. For ZvZ I use them mid-late game vs mutas (both defense and offense), but nothing else.
For ZvT I use them with infestors and zerglings as anti-air, as well as to heal the infestors, as well as late-game to heal ultralisks or corruptors or brood lords.
Infestors on their own can kill air a bit, but it uses a buttload of energy, infested terrans to kill the air, and fungal to keep them there. This is why queens are so useful, since ZvT hydras are pretty horrible.
Like I said with protoss though, I don't see any use for queens except I guess end-game where you get brood lords and corruptors. I mean i guess they are also a bit decent mid-game where you can heal left-over corruptors after attacking colossus, but generally you can do that with the 3-5 queens you'll have normally.
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On August 25 2010 05:46 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 05:37 Slayer91 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that? I've played this style (mass queens with roach+infestor) a lot and off multiple different opening. There are two things I lose to: -Fast ultras if i get behind eco really early, ie make a mistake and let banelings kill most of my drones. -roaches off a better eco (i.e you made mistakes to get behind), even here he needs a lot more to beat you. -hydra/roach i'm not convinced is much better than roach, since 1 good flank makes it worse than pure roach and its more expensive, why not get infestors instead? Things thing crushes even if you do get behind. -Muta/ling. Whatever you call "map control" is gone as soon as infestors get 75 energy, it takes 2-3 infestors and your queens to not shut down but literally kill any mutas that get in range of a fungal. Fungal also 1 shots banelings and brings lings down to pathetic hp, although +2 roaches 2 shot anything but +2 armour lings anyway. -Broodlords. You can't get to broodlords and even if you do neutral//fungal+kill with queens is really good. Once i let him get broodlrods 3 base vs 3 base but i had ultra at that stage which are way too mobile to lose you just need corruptors. -Mass expo with spine crawler and muta. Tranfusion + roach is very good against spine crawler and as I said muta are worthless with infestors and queen on the field. 4 Fungals alone can take down like 5-6 minimum muta and 3 takes them all down to almost no hp. 1-2 locks them down enough for queens to kill a lot as well. Ways of getting there: 1: Standard opening and when you both go mutas, spare minerals go on queens and you stop making mutas and get either corruptors or just go straight to roaches and infestors while pumping more queens. If he sticks muta its not good for him but getting a quick third and going roaches is probably the best. 2: The zelniq FE but only works on some maps and you can't let him morph banelings anywhere near you until he gets speed otherwise you're kinda screwed, maybe need a third or forth spine crawler because as zelniq said roaches are slow. Also you can tranfuse a spinecrawler just as the first banelings are hitting it if you get lucky =P 3: Roaches into FE on a map like Kulas where speedling isn't all that safe. 4: Ling baneling into FE and don't get mutas get queens instead. I might post some replays in a bit. Blindly going mass queens in every game isn't good, but there are definitely situations where it is just very good. Even in muta/corruptor air wars tranfusion is really, really good, and they're good anti air in general to help bolster your air army on creep. Nydus worms are necessary for this on maps like desert because you can't creep enough of the map. ovi speed helps, but slow queens are fast enough in most maps if he's going muta heavy. I still don't care much for opening mass queen. In my experience as the other player my response can simply be this... 1. Pump drones, no attack is coming anytime soon so drone and expand away 2. Keep pressure with lings -> pressure with mutas (don't over commit to mutas) or just go right into roach/hydra. 3. Start massing queens as well, but a bit delayed. You'll have less queens, but more upgrades/ground troops. Especially nice is a critical mass of hydra or roaches that can 1 volley a queen. To FE with mass queens (or FE in general) you need to cut corners to get the expo secured vs lings and generally make roaches. In almost all cases the cut corners is going to be more than what the offensive player has to cut. Doubly so if they hit you with some mutas or lings and do actual economic damage or keep you off a 3rd. With mass queens holding a 3rd early on is tough to manage. Basically I feel like vs mass queens there's not a whole lot of threat until they can creep their way over to you. This opens you up to do a little harassing into a big economic boom. To then survive the resulting battle you get your own queens + roach/hydra to target fire any enemy queens you can.
Well, it depends on how you play it.
1: I get upgrades faster because I'm spending money on an early evolution chamber for 2x spore anyway. (2 Evo roach can catch up though)
2: I'm expanding the same time you are because I don't need to worry about muta harass now. Pressure with lings doesn't really matter because roaches and queens are more than sufficient to kill zerglings and if you make too many lings you don't have enough drones. If I opened from banelings lings definitely aren't an issue.
3: I use queens as strictly anti mutalisk. When you stop making mutas I just go straight up roach infestor, but whatever queens remain I can use to tranfuse thereby making them efficient. After that I find more queens take up too much space and are too slow to compete in a more mobile midgame zvz, but the aim is get an advantage against a muta build by defending with pure minerals and spending gas on infestors and getting upgrades leaving you with a stronger army.
Also, the once people start to get ultras which are basically the ultimate zvz unit to start massing (roach hydra broodlord probably wins in a 200/200 fight but if you attack each other at all broodlords don't compete once theres not that much support), any queens that stay alive can transfuse, 1 full energy queen can heal 2 ultra from half life to full. That's pretty massive so people will probably end up going queen/ultra especially for the anti muta and the fact that queens tank ultra damage extremely well (effectively having about 350-400 "armoured" hp)
I don't really find queens as a straight up unit that good, which I think is the intended unit design. As a support caster and anti-air they're really good for 150 minerals. The only caster//healer unit that doesn't cost gas.
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Queens upgrade very, very well though. When I do a similar build, I always rush my range upgrade, which takes their ground attack from 4x2 to 5x2, and their AA from 9 to 10. Carapace upgrade is also very good since they will make each transfuse more effective (i.e. healing more hits).
In ZvP, I think the queens have a different role. Obviously they're very good AA, but they can also tank very well for your Hydras. They're big, so not a lot of them get hit by colossus or storm, and they can fire AA against colossus so they can target fire them in the back while transfusing. Finally, they have the best armor type in the game (i.e. simply Bio), so they're actually good vs immortals and stalkers as well. Queen/Hydra/Infestor is viable vs pretty much anything toss throws at you.
Since Hydras are already very slow, their mobility is not such a big concern, and they are godlike late-game since they can keep your ultras alive longer, actually allowing them to attack their targets. Queen/Broodlords is also a powerful combo, having the longest AA range zerg can get combined with the longest AtG range. The only downside is that your melee attack won't be upgraded.
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Hey guys... /nod to Evan the bouncy (I'm the one who used it on him at a local tournament).
I use Queens vs all Zerg match ups. It is a slightly different build than Day9s daily, however it was inspired by it. I am a Rank 30 ~600 diamond and I always use this opener.
I RARELY lose the mirror match. I will PM you Zelniq and I am gladly willing to show you my build :D
Raw.907 if you want to scrim.
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I'm sort of skipping over a few threads here but I just want to add my 2 cents for ZvP with this..which is it probably won't go too far. I inadvertently was forced to use this strat when my warm up partner decided it would be awesome to Phoenix harass into void ray - being that I have a disdain for all "towers" I went for multiple queens, I'll check if I still have the replay because until you get hydras pumping (towers wont really help anyhow) graviton beam with enough phoenixes to out number your queens is hard enough to deal with let alone once voids come in if you werent lucky enough to decently handle the phoenix ....GG -- viable?? Perhaps but personally I think p air is way to easily proxied to begin with (if that's the way they're trying to serve the dish) and if they scout your oddities chrono boosted phoenixes pump faster than wonka's factory and the Swedish pumps austin powers loves so much...I'd have to try it against a decent t I'm too tired to think about it but it seems a queen/roach mid game push with tumored map control would be "decent". With good transfusions... I seem to remember it beinging practical in the beta idk about nowaday-terran
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I am actually pretty impressed seeing this, you dealth with reapers well, same with many other things.
I haven't had the time to watch all the replays, but how do you fare against banelings? seems like they might give you trouble here
Edit: this seems like a good way to setup a good mid-late game macro game where zerg can dominate.
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watched the replays. im not that familiar yet with sc2 but i think theres a lot of potential in that strat. since you have that many queens but in almost all the reps you didnt have to use transfuse vs early agression i guess there is space to cut corners and expand earlier which would result in an even stronger midgame.
same goes for creepspread which wasnt constant in any of those reps. with even more spread it is probably the most powerful z midgame build order ive seen so far. better then the FE builds since by the time you get into midgame the macro just kicks in.
also the saved up gas gets very early upgrades which are crucial and allow some intresting composition switches in the midgame.
well to sum it up: this build could very well become a good counter/safe build order vs Z banelings, reaperabuse and 2gates. its easier to defend 1 base and doesnt cost you a lot economic drawback. if you cut corners and expand early it might even be economically as strong as FE but way easier to defend...
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mass queen is definately viable especially in ZvZ
i personally play it without the hatch before pool thing bacause it is just way too risky in ZvZ
but after i get some roaches => expand
and than just mass queens and roaches
you'll have to attack before he gets the crittical mass of mutalisks or he'll onehit the queens
attack works fine on bigger maps with nydus and overlord drop (drop prefered because of creep spread after drop)
i'll post some replays perhaps
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I have a quick question about this strategy, and zerg in general. Do larva ever die if you don't use them?
Can you just keep massing larva even if you're not making anything out of them, and they'll last forever? I'm not actually a zerg player, so I don't know.
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no they dont die. i dont know though if there is a max cap for larva, basically if u have saved up enough larva you can instantly morph 200 supply...
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I also agree with the under-usage of Queens. The other day I played a long zvt on Kulas Ravine which ended in a base rase, he then checked all expands but luckily I had expanded to his gold expand which he checked last. He had much more than me and I just had a pack of zerglings. I was able to build up enough to get a roach warren, a couple more roaches and a queen. When his thor/tank/bio ball got there I had enough energy between three queens to transfuse my pack of roaches so that the tanks didnt destroy them. Without the queens I would have gotten completely merked and it seems as if one roach took 10 seige hits while I was spamming the T key, and the rest of his army was softened. I like the idea, good post.
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On August 26 2010 00:02 TedJustice wrote:
I have a quick question about this strategy, and zerg in general. Do larva ever die if you don't use them?
Can you just keep massing larva even if you're not making anything out of them, and they'll last forever? I'm not actually a zerg player, so I don't know.
they Do die and there's a limit of larvae you can have per hatch
i don't now how many though
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On August 26 2010 00:26 Ohdamn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 00:02 TedJustice wrote:
I have a quick question about this strategy, and zerg in general. Do larva ever die if you don't use them?
Can you just keep massing larva even if you're not making anything out of them, and they'll last forever? I'm not actually a zerg player, so I don't know. they Do die and there's a limit of larvae you can have per hatch i don't now how many though
20
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Actually in an awesome game i watched with Idra vs Tester, idra used 3 offensive queens to augment his insane speedling pressure on Metalopolis. then teching mutas while Tester was forced into gate/robo tech due to the circumstances. Transfusion between queens is pretty nasty when unit counts are low.
For this game watch the IEM finals.
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EPT
