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EDIT 2: When I say Mass Queens, I mean 8-10. I do not mean enough Queens to attack with. Rarely ever do I actually attack with the Queens I make, they are purely for defensive and economical reasons. My attacking force consists of the usual, the difference is that I will have more than my opponent, and be able to reinforce 2-3 times faster. PLEASE!!! Watch the replays.
EDIT: I'll preface this with the fact that though I'm only a mediocre diamond (as Saracen so delicately put it, in his most recent, excellent post) at 500 points, I feel like my understanding of the game is very good, and my issue is that I simply don't have the mechanics to back it up. That being said, I feel like this could be how Zerg was intended to be played by Blizzard, and I'm hoping some top level players will take this "skeleton" of a strategy, and flesh it out.
I've been working on a strategy revolving around mass queens in ALL matchups, as you would assume from the title. Thus far, it has worked quite well. Keep in mind, I am only ~500 Diamond at the moment, but I hope you guys seeing my strategy will open up new possibilities. In the last 16 games I've played on the ladder, I've won 13, and each of the them was with this strat.
I don't have an exact build order at the moment, because this is more of an "idea" you have when you play it, as opposed to an exact science, so I ask that you watch all of the following replays to see how it works.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63377-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63378-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63382-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63384-1v1-terran-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63385-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/63386-1v1-zerg-metalopolis
I think the biggest strong points in this strategy is that your unit production capability is dramatically increased. With so many Queens and Hatches, every time you need to reinforce, it feels like you have been sitting at 200/200 and just hoarding larva for 5 minutes.
The Queens allow for extremely good defensive play, and pretty much negate any air he tries to harrass you with. (Goodbye Muta Harrass!!!) Also, Transfuse makes them extremely valuable as combat units, assuming you have the micro to do it right.
Anyway, I feel like so much more could be said by seeing the replays.
Let me know what you guys think!!!
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Calgary25996 Posts
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
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Chill, I'm sure you've seen Day[9]'s Mass Queens daily? The one w/ Zelniq playing? If so, it is basically just like that.
You get 2 queens early enough to block the ramp from Banelings, and follow up with Roaches to replace the Queens as a wall. (In these particular replays, I didn't see a Baneling ZvZ, but it has happened and I did fine.)
The thing is, you don't really need map control. When you're sitting on 2 bases, spreading creep everywhere, with your 6-10 Queens, Muta Harrass might as well be non-existent. If they go heavy Muta, you add in some Hydras, but I've seen 8 Queens take out a mass of like 15 Muta with absolutely no issues.
I guarantee your production capabilities will be stronger than your opponent, because you'll have 3 hatches on 2 bases, while he only has 2 hatches, so you basically sit at home, get your ranged/armor upgrades and build a good force of Roach, Queen, and throw in some Hydra. GG.
One of the replays has a perfect example of this. My opponent tried to get me w/ Muta and it just didn't work.
EDIT:
I should clarify what I mean by "you don't really need map control". This build is very defensive, and definitely a power play. You do whats necessary to maintain a good economy and once you get like 20-25 2/2 Speed Roaches throw them at his base. Do as much damage to his army/base as possible, and even if your attack is thwarted, you'll have complete reinforced your army within seconds.
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On August 25 2010 03:31 Chill wrote:
I can't watch the replays right now, I'll just ask how you can win ZvZ with this. I've played against it only once and it was a very easy win for me - banelings in his worker line, spine up until mutas, and then sit on map control all day. How do you stop that?
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3743156/ I think the key is that queens can block your ramp and prevent bling runbys. later on queens can destroy mutas without any problems believe it or not. As with any strat theres a lot of variables so i think ill leave most of the explaining to the replays and that vid.
EDIT: Nice post Ryan, beat me to it 
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whoa. gotta see how mass queens on ZvP and ZvT is gonna do. brb to watch the replays!
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Ive never purposely tried this strat but, 10min ago i was on kulas ravine, and my overlord scouted a proxy stargate (complete) i had 1 queen out at the time, built my second and as he arrived i had two queens fended it off fairly easy. Then in the next 2/3 minutes he sent 4 void rays in and i was still massing queens thinking he was committing to the voidrays and i was right. Soon as the void rays were charged my 5/6 queens got completely fucked. I retreated too my hidden gold which was saturated had around 8 queens when he pushed in with the rest of his void rays and it just failed it seems that unit destroys this strat. I dunno im just rambling because im so angry, but if i were to try this strat what else can i do vs a mass void ray strat? ( i mean i even broke both his rocks down at his natural and destroyed all his probes with my 12 or so zerglings but it still wasnt enough it felt like my queens were doing nothing vs them in the end. Yeah and i was spamming transfuse but the pure dps output on the rays seem too hard to handle i ran out of energy in the end.
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You know, I actually haven't dealt with Void Rays with this build yet, but it seems like Queens should still do well against them, especially if it is only 4. I could be dead wrong though, and i would probably have transitioned to Hydras real quick, to supplement your Queens.
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Yeah, thats what i figured, i think i let the voidrays get charged up on an overlord or something i cant remember but all i remember was them dropping like sacks of shit. I was all over the place because my expansion was so far away and my micro and everything just went too hell haha... i think it was just me being terrible ;/
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On August 25 2010 03:58 ryanAnger wrote:
You know, I actually haven't dealt with Void Rays with this build yet, but it seems like Queens should still do well against them, especially if it is only 4. I could be dead wrong though, and i would probably have transitioned to Hydras real quick, to supplement your Queens.
you need hydras or mutas by that time,to defend againts 3+ voids
queens are good for defence,if you havent upgraded to lair by that time then he hits with first void
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I think one of the major problems with this build in ZvZ (or any mathcup for that matter) is that you need to rely on expanding creep all the way to your opponents base to mount any sort of offense. I mean it's easy to sit back and defend with your tons of hatches and queens, but that's not going to win you the game. If your opponent has map control with Mutas, he can simply use muta/overseer to snipe all your creep tumors and prevent you from expanding creep up to his base. Then your queens are pretty much useless since they are so damn slow off creep and your opponent is free to expand all over the place..
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I think the play is good against terran but you probally could have gotten a ultralisk cavern a lot sooner and the drop you did on metaloplis was fail because you went in he saw it then he got his tanks into postion but it seemed to work nice against the reaper strat maybe a little faster on the expands and ultras and this could be very good
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The other day I played a 4v4 and some guy did something like this, but instead of like 5-10, he had maybe 30+ queens, and was sitting on about 5 bases with about 12 hatches, and like 40 zerglings, I really didnt understand why he did that as my hydras just took a massive dump on them and there was just blood on creep where his bases and units were. He kept trying to transfuse but they died anyway.
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On August 25 2010 04:05 stk01001 wrote:
I think one of the major problems with this build in ZvZ (or any mathcup for that matter) is that you need to rely on expanding creep all the way to your opponents base to mount any sort of offense. I mean it's easy to sit back and defend with your tons of hatches and queens, but that's not going to win you the game. If your opponent has map control with Mutas, he can simply use muta/overseer to snipe all your creep tumors and prevent you from expanding creep up to his base. Then your queens are pretty much useless since they are so damn slow off creep and your opponent is free to expand all over the place..
Well, in all of the matchups, the Queens are really just there to provide excellent defense and production capabilities. The Queens are never really your win condition. You win by out-producing your opponent significantly.
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United States7166 Posts
queens are really really good zvz but the problem with that build I showed on the day9daily is that a standard baneling build (9 OL,14 gas 13 pool, speed first then baneling nest) will actually kill the 2 spines + expansion hatchery before roaches can get out, especially if they control properly.. idra quite easily showed me that. I haven't put the effort/time into finding a good opener to make it work, I'd guess one exists..just don't know it yet.
im lazy to msg everyone so if a good zerg cares to help me find one PM me and we can play a few
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as for queens vs T, i havent watched replays but I know they are very situational. vs marauders / bio, queens are unable to attack and get easily kited, so only useful for the transfuse, which is not worth it on all zerg units in that scenario until you get ultras/broodlords (in which case it's actually pretty damn gr9). if however theyre going pure mech, roach and a few queens for transfuse could be very useful to break some entrenched, forward tank positions. in general though mass queens are a bad idea vs terran ground as they are not able to use their ground attack vs terran due to their long ranged army, + concussive shells. For defending, however, their ground to ground attacks could be useful vs the slow thors or immobile tanks
a big issue for queens vs non zerg is the lack of creep makes it hard/impossible to attack with it..if you can manage to get good creep spread..maybe..
as for queens vs P
yet again the creep spread is another issue, as to some extent force fields, and stalker micro (even without blink).. but they are alright for defense. lategame once again transfuse is useful on ultras/broodlords..it always is.
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Zelniq, I'm nowhere near as good as you, but what I've been doing is playing 1 base until after Lair, but I build a 2nd hatch in my main, for the Queen production. I tried doing the FE version, but it was way too vulnerable. Defending the ramp is actually pretty easy the way I've been doing it.
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All i can say is i love to see stuff like this. Im not an expert zerg player by any means because i play toss but new ideas is what the game needs. Not sure about the timings exactly, but what happens if the other zerg just 16 pools to keep up with you production. Eitherway keep improving the strat!
Also what have u lost to with this build and what gave u troubles
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On August 25 2010 03:50 velvetone wrote:
Ive never purposely tried this strat but, 10min ago i was on kulas ravine, and my overlord scouted a proxy stargate (complete) i had 1 queen out at the time, built my second and as he arrived i had two queens fended it off fairly easy. Then in the next 2/3 minutes he sent 4 void rays in and i was still massing queens thinking he was committing to the voidrays and i was right. Soon as the void rays were charged my 5/6 queens got completely fucked. I retreated too my hidden gold which was saturated had around 8 queens when he pushed in with the rest of his void rays and it just failed it seems that unit destroys this strat. I dunno im just rambling because im so angry, but if i were to try this strat what else can i do vs a mass void ray strat? ( i mean i even broke both his rocks down at his natural and destroyed all his probes with my 12 or so zerglings but it still wasnt enough it felt like my queens were doing nothing vs them in the end. Yeah and i was spamming transfuse but the pure dps output on the rays seem too hard to handle i ran out of energy in the end.
i feel you sir. i think the void ray mechanics need to be altered. blizzard implemented the charge aspect of vrays to make them balanced (since obviously, a fully charged vray from the start is not fair). HOWEVER, in essence it basically is charged. the P player simply charges on your extractor and by the time human reaction time kicks in, the vrays are nearly fully charged (if not fully charged already). this is why i believe the void ray mechanics need to be tweaked in some way.
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United States7166 Posts
On August 25 2010 04:27 ryanAnger wrote:
Zelniq, I'm nowhere near as good as you, but what I've been doing is playing 1 base until after Lair, but I build a 2nd hatch in my main, for the Queen production. I tried doing the FE version, but it was way too vulnerable. Defending the ramp is actually pretty easy the way I've been doing it.
you get a 2nd hatch in main when? before lair/ early in lair morph?
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Hmm, I just watched the ZvP on DQ. I felt that the protoss could've easily pumped immortals much faster after scouting with his observor. He also didn't chrono boost a lot and sat on 100. His first push could've easily had 2 more immortals and could've ended there. However, the build is still pretty viable, shuts down the air game pretty decently early on and just discourages it for the most part. Will continue watching.
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I do it before Lair, typically, unless my opponent is doing something that requires an early lair. The goal is to have at least 1 Queen building at all times until you have about 8-10, so putting a hatch down before Lair supports that.
What I normally do is put the hatch down, and when its about 75% done, get Lair.
On another note, the other thing about this strat is that you only need 1 gas for the first 7-10 minutes, because splings, Queens, and Roaches prove to be a good amount of defense. Of course, you can opt to go 2 gas, and start getting your range/armor upgrades, but thats completely up to you whether your opponent is being aggressive or not.
@lightrise - Of the games I've lost, it was because I just didn't play well enough, specifically, scouting. I neglected to scout someone going Mass Collossi to counter my Roach Hydra Queen, and I didn't scout a Stalker/Immortal Push, so that caught me off guard and killed me. The only ZvZ I lost was because I put my 2 Queens on the ramp to block, but I forgot to tell them to hold. He ran in w/ Speedlings, disrupted my Queens, and then ran by them and destroyed my mineral line. Like I said, all player error, and not necessarily anything wrong with the strategy.
To the guy asking about Void Rays - here is a replay against Void Rays. http://www.mediafire.com/?cczimi7w5synd6x
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EPT
