yeah i read that and its what i always do when it comes to rays. But Im talking about a guy that proxied 3 stargates somewhere outside his base and spammed cannons and stalkers so my first hellion drop was a failure. Because i couldnt drop without sacrificing 3 hellions to take out maybe 3 probes. Not a good exchange if you ask me. This guy had about 6 or so speed rays out by the time i had 2 banshees out and by the time i realised there were rays it was too late. He had really good micro and the damaged rays were just sent away to recharge shields while more came. Trust me those vikings I built didnt have a chance lol. With that and microing between taking out scvs and running from marines, it was over very quickly. I just think if i had stim i would have had a fighting chance. Other than that game and one i lost to a guy who im pretty sure used a map hack I havent really lost with this build.

Grrbrr.404

Germany91 Posts

September 30 2010 06:07 GMT

#362

Hi,

i like this build some how, but since i try to do it it feels like every protoss i have to face likes to go phoenix .... That is so fucking weird

In Fact, even if a Protoss is prepared for the drop you can kill some probes with good micro, but with 2 phoenix allready in play you cant do much. They just lift your hellions up

But anyways, i like this build. The only reason i dislike it, is a late expansion.

eu.exodus

South Africa1186 Posts

September 30 2010 08:39 GMT

#363

Ive also taken a few risky chances that have been working well with this build. Just sending in a few marines from the front to attack a few seconds before harrassing which helps as a distraction. Then im free to take out drones quickly.

This does leave you at a huge disadvantage at your main but alot of the time you do so much economic damage that he cant recover. Especially if he only has zeals. He mostly goes for marines then i just run away. Then he goes for hellions which i just kite and then send the rines back in again.

Then I just rally to his base and its gg

Mizzet

Singapore47 Posts

September 30 2010 12:13 GMT

#364

Yes, thanks to this build my winrate against toss opponents has become extremely good, with the exception of when they opt for phoenixes which seem to shut it down reasonably well. I find myself contained for a good period of time trying to prevent them picking off workers mining or constructing buildings, and in the meantime the toss makes a beeline for storm tech.

Any ideas on what I should do against this? They are normally zealot heavy because of the gas requirements of stargate tech, so marines just get eaten up if I try a normal push at the usual timing.

statikg

Canada930 Posts

September 30 2010 14:32 GMT

#365

Those having trouble with the protoss counter attack, you should be able to have 2 bunkers, plus extra marines, plus a couple extra hellions plus 1-2 banshees. It is imperative that you get those banshees IMMEDIATELY after the drop, as soon as your medvac pops you should be putting the tech lab on/building another starport and cueing them up asap. You CAN hold. Use banshees to target sentries first, then stalkers, if the fight gets inside your base then you can still win if you kill all the stalkers and another banshee comes out. If you killed enough probes with your hellions you can still be ahead at this point.

Calidus

150 Posts

September 30 2010 14:42 GMT

#366

building 1 banshee then 1 raven then 2 more banshees, then pushing has given me some success, because PDD is so good aswell as with the raven your marines can destroy the observer that is likely in your base.

DragonDefonce

United States790 Posts

September 30 2010 15:25 GMT

#367

A terran player used this against me once, and if you don't know how to react, you will lose, instantly. The problem is that when you run your probes, they line up, giving the faster hellions much, much easier shot at just decimating your workers. Ever since that game, I am always intently looking out for this every game, because this is so simple yet it can very easily win you the game.

If your army is near by, just run it to your natural mineral patches. If they are not, spread them out and run them to the army, without clicking on the minerals. Either way, this can so easily win you the game.

VanGarde

Sweden755 Posts

October 01 2010 03:59 GMT

#368

Seems that the main issue a lot of people have is with protoss FE builds, I guess mainly because even with a successful hellion drop protoss can catch back up in probe count pretty easily.

I do a variation when I am facing a fast expand build to abuse the fact that toss needs to spread out. After the drop and my expand I don't go for the early bio+banshee push, instead I just macro up bio, get dual engineering bays and double upgrade and get a fast third. While I do this I use banshee's in the same way that CheckPrime uses mutalisks against terran. I just constantly pressure protoss either with one cluster of 4-6 banshee's or splitting them and attacking multiple spots. Never actually engaging anything where I could lose a banshee but constantly picking off pylons, probes, even tech. Keep all banshee's alive, send damaged ones home for repair and just keep rallying new banshee's to increase the size of your cluster.

Just like how terran needs thors to eventually break a muta contain protoss has to get phoenixes or stay contained forever. By the time your third is going down you should have a huge bio force and several ravens for a later push with atleast 3 PDD's and the constant banshee pressure will have forced protoss to skew army composition way way too far into stalkers and phoenixes.

I feel that this later push is way way safer against a fast expanding toss as you will have had enough time to slowly eat away at their expansion advantage.

Zecias

United States116 Posts

October 03 2010 22:55 GMT

#369

i think you should try applying this build to TvZ, it feels like a good build to fight zerg with. im not an extremely good player, but im a decent one, 1100 plat, and ive won almost all my games using this against zerg. the banshees with cloak tend to come out right as/before the zerg have a spire. even if they have a spire out and are already pumping mutas, i usually get to destroy their spire and lair, which i would consider a big loss for the zerg. then i would either go, ravens, rines, and hellions or thors and rines(sometimes hellions if i am threatened by lings). the game usually ends up in a base trade that i win because my army is stronger.
any thoughts?

Senorcuidado

United States700 Posts

October 03 2010 23:08 GMT

#370

On October 04 2010 07:55 Zecias wrote:
i think you should try applying this build to TvZ, it feels like a good build to fight zerg with. im not an extremely good player, but im a decent one, 1100 plat, and ive won almost all my games using this against zerg. the banshees with cloak tend to come out right as/before the zerg have a spire. even if they have a spire out and are already pumping mutas, i usually get to destroy their spire and lair, which i would consider a big loss for the zerg. then i would either go, ravens, rines, and hellions or thors and rines(sometimes hellions if i am threatened by). the game usually ends up in a base trade that i win because my army is stronger.
any thoughts?

I was watching some of Select's games against Zerg and he would open up with a normal reactor hellion harrass (definitely different from iEchoic's build though) but then he would get a medivac pretty fast and position it to evacuate the hellions when they got cornered. It was like a reverse hellion drop, pretty cool. Then he just kept flying or running around between the main and natural being annoying until mutas came out.

Zecias

United States116 Posts

October 04 2010 00:04 GMT

#371

something cool that u can do, is if the zerg have a bunch of buildings behind their mineral line, u can choke with 2 rines that r being healed by medi while the hellions r perfectly safe.

KoArtist

Colombia23 Posts

October 14 2010 16:41 GMT

#372

Hi,
anybody have newer replays against collosus and phoenix builds?

Goliath-sc

France44 Posts

October 17 2010 22:38 GMT

#373

Thanks iEchoic for this build. The depth thinking you have made in it shows what differs good players from very good players. I had a lot of difficulties against protoss as a terran, especially with their fast warping of units and strong macro. with this build, i've tooken out five 1300+ protoss players in a row.

I think the key is to push before psi storm comes, that's where it comes more difficult. else, it's an automatic gg.

Oh, and a repsonse for the question above, I don't have the replay anymore where I had to face a phoenix opening, but since stargate and phoenixes are gas heavy the key is to push with marines and cloacked banshees before he gets to get a robotic facility (try not to get your banshees destroyed on the route, avoid xelnagas if he controls them), two cloacked banshees can do so many damage. and unless he have a zelot only army he will have a lot of trouble killing your marines.

Schmieds

United States312 Posts

October 18 2010 01:07 GMT

#374

Nice guide, I've been using it to good effect. One question, though. Are mass stalkers a problem using this build?

NathanNever

17 Posts

October 18 2010 12:11 GMT

#375

Hi,
Gz for your guide. It's very nice.

I'd like to see a replay in wich you use the ghosts vs templar army.
Thank you.

Iron_

United States389 Posts

October 18 2010 16:50 GMT

#376

Great guide and thread, and I've used this as part of my TvP arsenal for quite a while. As it is fairly popular now, one counter I have had used against me is the Protoss goes gateway units and phoenix. The phoenix put a hurting on my banchees and raven. Have you seen this before? Would you suggest just going heavier on the rines? Would you cancell the banchees entirely and go all our rax? What do you think?

enigmaticcam

United States280 Posts

October 22 2010 16:31 GMT

#377

Hello! Brand new gold player here! First I want to say thanks to iEchoic for posting this awesome build. I'm new to StarCraft, and this is my first build that I practiced. I played it over and over against the comp AI, refining it so I could perform it smoothly. And for a while when I first started out, I would use it against all three races, simply because it was so effective at my level.

I have a replay I was hoping to get some help on. I actually posted this replay in another help thread, but I figured I could post it here too so the experts on this build can see it.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/94294-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station
I basically was overwhelmed with stalkers. My Hellion drop seemed like it killed enough probes, but I couldn't deal with all his stalkers, and missed his warp prism drop in my line. Not sure how I could've done better. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

MarshalClaw

United States27 Posts

October 22 2010 19:54 GMT

#378

Hi iEchoic...

How would this build do if the P player started out by stealing both of your gas (then went with mass blinkers or did a quick warp prism zealot drop in your main (and continued to warp in new units)?

Thanks.
-MarshalClaw

EmilA

Denmark4618 Posts

October 22 2010 20:34 GMT

#379

Marshal I must say that sounds rather odd. If he pops two assimilators before 13 that means he's delaying his gateway (or god forbid, his probecount) by a ton. I'd go a 2 rax FE instead if my gas was stolen early - this build really relies on getting the drop and banshees out asap.