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Dang, I was beaten to the punch in telling the OP he was beaten to the punch.
I'll add your thread to the mechanics thread alongside with Zelniq's, yours is well thought out too
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This is a cool trick.
Would there be a huge problem with letting infestors cast their spells while burrowed without the use of an input glitch? Ghosts can nuke, snipe, and EMP while cloaked, but infestors can only spurt their terrans. It seems like the worst that could happen would be chain FGs on a ball of units, but... should have had detection, I guess.
I'm a terran player.
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This is horrible. needs to be patched. It's not an intended mechanic, but is OP for the infestor.
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On August 19 2010 07:31 silencesc wrote:
This is horrible. needs to be patched. It's not an intended mechanic, but is OP for the infestor.
Agreed, ZvT is OP due to infestor burrow.
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On August 19 2010 07:40 ChrisLeBlanc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 07:31 silencesc wrote:
This is horrible. needs to be patched. It's not an intended mechanic, but is OP for the infestor. Agreed, ZvT is OP due to infestor burrow.
haha I play toss, I just hate infested terran spamming while burrowed =S. It's a bug I think that spells can be cast while burrowed.
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On August 19 2010 07:40 ChrisLeBlanc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 07:31 silencesc wrote:
This is horrible. needs to be patched. It's not an intended mechanic, but is OP for the infestor. Agreed, ZvT is OP due to infestor burrow.
Eventually, every thread ends up as ZvT balance
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On August 19 2010 07:52 silencesc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 07:40 ChrisLeBlanc wrote:On August 19 2010 07:31 silencesc wrote:
This is horrible. needs to be patched. It's not an intended mechanic, but is OP for the infestor. Agreed, ZvT is OP due to infestor burrow. haha I play toss, I just hate infested terran spamming while burrowed =S. It's a bug I think that spells can be cast while burrowed.
Except that using Infested Terrans while burrowed is intended while Fungal and Neural Parasite is not... And even though Fungal and NP are not intended it still takes a fair amount of skill to use this effectively.
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This is actually an interesting discussion. The thing is, competitive gaming always revolves around exploiting a game to it's fullest, using every trick at your disposal to gain an edge. This results in skill cliffs in virtually every game, as no game is without it's own bugs and quirks. In most competitive communities, being able to master these tricks is an essential skill in remaining competitive, exactly like fdsdfg said. So the question is, when someone discovers an exploit like this, should they fix it?
Despite the fact that it seems clear that Blizzard did not intend that Neural Parasite be used this way, it may not be necessary that they change it. Lots of very balanced games contain many unbalancing tricks. How is this possible? Well, these tricks often become parts of the landscape, becoming an essential part of the "balance" despite the fact that they were originally unintended. Look at the Muta moving shot from BW, for example. Was it originally intended? Does it matter? I don't know, but it eventually evolved to become a very important asset for Zerg players as they realized it's importance.
So let's say that they leave this infestor "bug" in play. This will obviously increase the power of the Infestor by a tremendous amount, but who can say how it will effect the overall balance of the race? If this bug swings ZvT or ZvP in the Zerg's favor by a tremendous amount, then it is clear that it must be patched. If not, then why change it? It is simply a way for a skilled zerg player to squeeze a unit for more utility, and the other player will have to deal with it accordingly. Besides, so many people are complaining that SC2 doesn't have the same depth as BW. Isn't stuff like this exactly what we want to see?
This isn't to say that Blizzard should let every silly bug stay in the game, obviously. I'm just pointing out that people should consider these things carefully before screaming "IMBA", because many great competitive games contain exploits exactly like this, and still remain balanced.
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Nice to see that someone is still using neural parasite, I myself have not even thought about that ability with 12 sec channeling and infestors 90 hp.
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On August 19 2010 09:35 Mindspider wrote:
This is actually an interesting discussion. The thing is, competitive gaming always revolves around exploiting a game to it's fullest, using every trick at your disposal to gain an edge. This results in skill cliffs in virtually every game, as no game is without it's own bugs and quirks. In most competitive communities, being able to master these tricks is an essential skill in remaining competitive, exactly like fdsdfg said. So the question is, when someone discovers an exploit like this, should they fix it?
Despite the fact that it seems clear that Blizzard did not intend that Neural Parasite be used this way, it may not be necessary that they change it. Lots of very balanced games contain many unbalancing tricks. How is this possible? Well, these tricks often become parts of the landscape, becoming an essential part of the "balance" despite the fact that they were originally unintended. Look at the Muta moving shot from BW, for example. Was it originally intended? Does it matter? I don't know, but it eventually evolved to become a very important asset for Zerg players as they realized it's importance.
So let's say that they leave this infestor "bug" in play. This will obviously increase the power of the Infestor by a tremendous amount, but who can say how it will effect the overall balance of the race? If this bug swings ZvT or ZvP in the Zerg's favor by a tremendous amount, then it is clear that it must be patched. If not, then why change it? It is simply a way for a skilled zerg player to squeeze a unit for more utility, and the other player will have to deal with it accordingly. Besides, so many people are complaining that SC2 doesn't have the same depth as BW. Isn't stuff like this exactly what we want to see?
This isn't to say that Blizzard should let every silly bug stay in the game, obviously. I'm just pointing out that people should consider these things carefully before screaming "IMBA", because many great competitive games contain exploits exactly like this, and still remain balanced.
It's true, as a pro scene gets developed, there are hundreds of tricks that also become entry barriers to the competitive scene. Going back to fighting games.. there are the standard combos, special, super inputs that any seasoned fighting game player can pick up in an afternoon. But then you get to the very specific, difficult stuff. 3-way option selects in SF4, ROM variations in MVC2, wavedashing in Melee, etc. These things take a lot of practice until you can execute it in your game - and you can either execute it reliably or you can't - there's no in-between.
That's the part that I hate - there's no difference fighting someone with "What the hell is safejump?" and "I can almost safejump reliably". Neither of them are going to do safejumps at crucial times because the guy who can almost do it knows that if he attempts it and is a little off, he will eat huge damage.
Then there's a huge difference between that guy and "Yeah I can safejump after sweep and throw". Now I have to deal with potential safejumps after every sweep or throw.
The next guy has totally mastered safejumps. I don't really have to do anything differnet from the last guy. They're both going to be safejumping on me... either you can hit the 1 frame window or you can't. There's not much variability.
That's why I like muta micro - you get folks like Jaedong who just bring it levels above the rest of the 'superpros' because it's not a mesa - you can keep climbing up after learning the skill.
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Did anyone else know you can use neural parasite on an enemy's worker and build with it? Just found that out last night in a 2v2 o.O
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And I'd argue that the Neural Parasite glitch is going to have a learning curve, as well. I need to experiment with it, but it doesn't seem to be tremendously difficult to do. I imagine that will change, though, when I am in the middle of a major battle. So I can see a fairly high skill ceiling for learning this trick, because being able to pull it off at critical moment will still be much more difficult than pulling it off on, say, a line of immobile siege tanks defending a terran's ramp. And the best players will be able to use tricks like this reflexively, offsetting the Infestor's infamous fragility. In response, Terran and Protoss players will need to bring more detectors into fights when they know that Infestors might be in play.
I don't know whether it should be fixed or not, but I unless it becomes game-breaking, I will try to master the trick and work it into my play-style. Honestly, I can see way too many fun applications of this to pass it up 
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An interesting fact about this trick: In 2v2 or higher games, if you give your teammates control of your units, they can move the Infestor around (and into position) while you have the spell queued up.
The trick is a bit impractical at higher levels, as you literally can't do anything until you cast your spell. You can't deselect the Infestor or cancel the targeting between the time you burrow and the time you find your target.
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You can see this trick in use here. Scroll down the page a bit.
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I'm sorry to bump this thread but I was just thinking about this glitch when I was talking about the old glitch in BW where you could glitch 2 templars morphing into an Archon to cause the High Templars to have the ability to ' float ' or ' fly ' . I think that if this glitch was broughten back into effect for LOTV that it could add some more in depth level to game play. Although, I understand it could potentially be a little broken, I think this was really really cool and it wasn't necessarily easy to pull off in the midst of all the other stuff happening in the game.
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If I recall, Neural Parasite was being removed and replaced with something else. At Blizzcon it was an AOE damage buff but they might have since changed it. I think Blizz has it in their heads that NP is to be removed. A pity I say just because it removes the only way for one race to legitimately build another's units 
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yeah, let's remove a skill that could be incredible if altered slightly:
- no need to research
- slightly reduced range
- can use while burrowed (no need for a glitch)
I get a little teary-eyed just imagining hitting neurals on a couple widowmines next to a bioball...but at present this is simply never happening (if someone has a replay i'd gladly eat my words, regurgitate them and eat them again to see this)
but not to worry, I'm sure the team is working hard on some way to make infestors incredible...i suuuuure hope it's another activation spell
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I like NP as well! I use it vs thor-hellbat regularly in gold 3on3s!!
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EPT
