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On August 08 2010 08:37 CharlieMurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 08:36 Piski wrote:
I wonder if you can mindcontrol high templars and fuck him up with his own storms you can, but it's not as good vs toss because their units have 150+ hp and are larger.
Common misconception.
Protoss armies are small and blobtastic. Hitting every single unit in his army for 80 damage with just a couple of storms is just as powerful as using 2 Storms on a gigantic Zerg ball. One Storm can't even kill a Hydra (it heals 1 health before the Storm finishes it off).
I just wouldn't recommend getting Storm in PvP because you can't transition anywhere and even if you Feedback all his Sentries, his Collossi are just going to rape your Zealots regardless.
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On August 08 2010 05:43 Fimbulwinter wrote:
High Templars illustrate the necessity for zerg to flank effectively. I almost always keep a large number of speedlings detached from my main force. When they move out toward me I simply back up my main force until their army is in a good place to flank, then engage while simultaneously bringing the speedlings right into the high templar blob. Smart players keep their casters separate from their main force which almost makes it easier for lings to surround and kill.
This.
You can also use the speedlings to run into his base if he's trying to push out against you. Wait until his army is half way across the map and rush your lings into his main/natural. If he doesn't have his natural, then you should be fine vs. an army that includes HT's.
But ya, in my experience speedlings are probably the most reliable counter to HT's because of the fact that they are tier 1 tech and move very quickly. In many situations, there will be a lot of zealots if the protoss is HT heavy, and you should get infestors to make the zealots useless while your vanguard-ranged army attacks from a distance. One nice thing about your speedlings getting a surround on his HT's/stalkers is that he is forced to storm himself in order to get rid of the lings quickly.
Basically, try this with a practice partner who frequently goes for templar tech. Make sure you have the ability to attack from multiple angles- flanking and speed are key to dealing with a gateway/ht army.
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I went up against a Zerg who spammed Lings and Hydras. I went Templar build, and it was infuriating.
We had a mid-game fight of 150 food each, and his Lings/Banelings just roflpwnd my Gateway units, didn't even need the Hydras.
No, the Zergling is overpowered. It is broken. The Zerg gets ~30 food of it which forces you to make Zealots, the only spammable unit that can handle them, and then the Zerg morphs a few of them into Banelings, and you're screwed. Nothing the Protoss player can do because Stalkers suck.
Stalkers suck because they take 5-6 shots to kill a single Baneling. You see 8 of them rolling at you, what can you do? The Baneling explosion is larger than a Psi Storm.
As a Protoss player in Diamond, I don't know why Zerg don't win every PvZ. The match up is tilted in their favor. They really have no excuse.
- Can't go Collosus because Corruptors hard counter them, and because Stalkers suck it takes too long to kill a single Corruptor, much less a pack of 6 of them.
- Can't go Immortal because it's only good against two Zerg units, and one of those rarely sees the light of Game.
- Can't go air because of Hydras.
...
When I win a PvZ, I feel like I was lucky. I can't earn the win - when I win and watch the replay, all I can see are the mistakes the Zerg player made that lost him the game.
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On August 08 2010 09:03 Kurdaj wrote:
I went up against a Zerg who spammed Lings and Hydras. I went Templar build, and it was infuriating.
We had a mid-game fight of 150 food each, and his Lings/Banelings just roflpwnd my Gateway units, didn't even need the Hydras.
No, the Zergling is overpowered. It is broken. The Zerg gets ~30 food of it which forces you to make Zealots, the only spammable unit that can handle them, and then the Zerg morphs a few of them into Banelings, and you're screwed. Nothing the Protoss player can do because Stalkers suck.
Stalkers suck because they take 5-6 shots to kill a single Baneling. You see 8 of them rolling at you, what can you do? The Baneling explosion is larger than a Psi Storm.
As a Protoss player in Diamond, I don't know why Zerg don't win every PvZ. The match up is tilted in their favor. They really have no excuse.
- Can't go Collosus because Corruptors hard counter them, and because Stalkers suck it takes too long to kill a single Corruptor, much less a pack of 6 of them.
- Can't go Immortal because it's only good against two Zerg units, and one of those rarely sees the light of Game.
- Can't go air because of Hydras.
...
When I win a PvZ, I feel like I was lucky. I can't earn the win - when I win and watch the replay, all I can see are the mistakes the Zerg player made that lost him the game.
By your logic, every single race is OP. Let me give you an example:
As a Zerg player in Diamond, I don't know why Protoss don't win every PvZ. The match up is tilted in their favor. They really have no excuse.
- Can't go Hydras because Colossi hard counter them, and because Corruptors suck against Stalkers all my Corruptors get owned, leaving my ground army to die to Colossus fire.
- Can't go Roach because Immortals hard counter them.
- Can't go air because of stalkers.
...
When I win a ZvP, I feel like I was lucky. I can't earn the win - when I win and watch the replay, all I can see are the mistakes the Protoss player made that lost him the game.
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If they are able to support their ground army with a decent amount of high templars you should be able to get, or at least be teching to ultralisk. At that point you should be on your third base. (You must take 3rd base while they are on two),
Roach are fine, I know I know we all knew the days when they were one supply, but alas they are gone and we have to make do, just grab the speed upgrade on them and run up to them and demolish them, while your hydralisk do the work on their ground army.
Mutalisk also might be an option if you just attack move, and run past them so they cannot be caught in a storm.
uhh and flanking is fine too, a dozen or so zerglings flanking them could kill them, and even if they don't they've wasted all their energy storming your zerglings and now cannot attack your hydralisk, or whatever composition you are running.
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Just pump Roach/Hydra and never engage his army. Run in try to snipe what you can, split up your forces and if he does force a full engagement you need to spread everything out and pull the hydras back out of the storm asap. Not so much for the roaches but it does help. Another hard part while is is going on do not miss you larva cycle, you will need another wave of roach/hydra.
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HT aren't nearly the threat in SC2 that they were in SC1. To be perfectly honest if I see my opponent going HT over Colossi I pretty much assume I've won. Storm just tickles roach and you typically can dodge the majority of the damage on Hydralisks. Throw in some zling/bling action and you're set. It becomes a macro game except his primary unit is limited by energy and terribly fragile.
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By your logic, every single race is OP. Let me give you an example:
As a Zerg player in Diamond, I don't know why Protoss don't win every PvZ. The match up is tilted in their favor. They really have no excuse.
- Can't go Hydras because Colossi hard counter them, and because Corruptors suck against Stalkers all my Corruptors get owned, leaving my ground army to die to Colossus fire.
- Can't go Roach because Immortals hard counter them.
- Can't go air because of stalkers.
...
When I win a ZvP, I feel like I was lucky. I can't earn the win - when I win and watch the replay, all I can see are the mistakes the Protoss player made that lost him the game.
Negative ghostrider, the pattern is full.
Stalkers suck. This is self-evident. Even with Blink, Mutalisks can and do fly circles around them.
I want you to show me a replay or other example of Stalkers actually protecting Collosus from Corruptors. They don't provide protection. It is too risky to mass Stalkers against Zerg - so Protoss players shouldn't. Every Zerg unit except Roaches, and maybe even Roaches with burrow micro, beats Stalkers both in speed of production and for cost.
Stalkers are just bad.
Hydralisks, however are good. Even with having half the life, half the mobility, and being a higher tier in tech, massed Hydralisks will destroy mass Stalkers. Why is this so? The Zerg player doesn't even need to climb the tech tree - go down a peg and make a batch of Speedlings. They'll take care of Stalkers. They move fast enough that Blink stops being worthwhile.
So Protoss must go either Templar tech or Collosus tech to deal with Hydralisks. Hydra's incredible damage destroys Void Rays and Carriers, so they aren't even a viable option. It really comes down to either Templars or Collosus.
And that brings us to this thread. Zerglings and Hydralisks completely dominate Gateway units. The Zerg masses Lings, which forces the Protoss to mass Zealots because even Collosus can't handle Lings, you need a meat shield of Zealots. So then the Zerg player makes a handful of Banelings and suddenly all those Zealots die. But the Zerg player took a 1/2 supply unit to make a counter to a 2 supply unit. That's called efficiency.
Don't play games or say something stupid like a unit that can't attack ground is countered by a ground unit, that's ridiculous. I am actually in the Diamond league losing to Zerg constantly, and I ask them for advice, and they tell me to go Templar because Collosus get beaten by Corruptors. I'm hearing what I am telling you from the Zerg players that are beating me.
Open your eyes and wake up, this game will have a rocky birthing process.This game is not balanced. If this game surpasses SC1, it will be because of hype and not quality.
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You can use the abilities of units you mind control?
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On August 08 2010 05:45 Plexa wrote:
Don't look for a unit counter, just flank well and micro well. That's all there is to it. You can use fungal growth too since if HT are fungal'd they can't cast storm.
wait really? weird, because I am pretty sure you can lift/land vikings and blink stalkers when they are fungal'ed.
On August 08 2010 09:44 DarthHalo2 wrote:
You can use the abilities of units you mind control?
yes. infested templar storm their protoss brethren =(
you can even build a nexus/cc with a mind controlled worker!
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On August 08 2010 05:45 Plexa wrote:
Don't look for a unit counter, just flank well and micro well. That's all there is to it. You can use fungal growth too since if HT are fungal'd they can't cast storm.
Wow I never knew this, thanks! 
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Ironically if you make ultras the toss player can just merge some of his HT into archons and tank them. Archons are not armored and will not melt to Ultras (they don't hard counter them but can hold them back long enough for your army to seriously hurt them).
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wow,,,,PVZ has a long way to go, do you think the zvp in sc1 was evolved from whining? why dont you use your time to figure out something instead of whining all the time. sc2 is full of hard cuonters, i remember being beat by skillless 4gate like 20 times before i came up with hydra+ling strat, i won with hydra ling countless times vs p, it definately has its flaws, blink stalker can just keep micro and take down hydras and , while getting up collosus den its kinda hard to deal with, just start thikning, and not copying the pros, cuz u wont understand anything or learn anything, i bet ur donig 4bg all the time anyway,
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Just theorycrafting here but especially on the creep you should be able to move your roaches/hydras/lings up into the Toss army. With the speed they get on the creep you can basically make it a melee matchup, meaning if he Psi Storms you he has to Psi storm himself.
Just a thought
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Oh ok, then I'm almost back to square one. I mean, I know about the flanking and everything but it's freaking impossible to pull off a perfect flank so that your units attack at the same time from all sides.
seems to me you just need to hotkey up and practice your micro game. flanking should never be that hard if you have 2 groups hotkeyed, your main army and the flanking speedlings. even if you can't solve the HT issue with flanking and still having trouble, flanking is a major part of zerg combat and will hlep you win many more battles against other units as well
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On August 08 2010 09:03 Kurdaj wrote:Nothing the Protoss player can do because Stalkers suck.
Stalkers suck because they take 5-6 shots to kill a single Baneling. You see 8 of them rolling at you, what can you do? The Baneling explosion is larger than a Psi Storm.
Wow.. you need to actually look at the matches objectively instead of making shit up.
30 divided by 10 equals... less than 5-6. The explosion is much smaller than a psi storm.
You see 8 banelings rolling towards you? How about let them all roll into your stalker? He'll survive and cost the zerg 400/200. Pretty damn good deal.
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Wow I hate zerg. Why am I still playing Zerg. I tried something new today instead of always going roach/hydra and getting raped by fast colossus.
I tried mass muta to get map control but i would up with a shitload of excess minerals and no gas and mass slings didnt do very match against mass stalker (even though in theory slings rape stalkers). Blink stalkers with just a little bit of micro absolutely rapes muta ling and I dont really have any answer for them. Blink stalkers even rape t3 units so me i am really in need of an out of the box answer. Fungal maybe? You can only cast so much fungal though.
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On August 08 2010 09:44 Kurdaj wrote:Show nested quote +By your logic, every single race is OP. Let me give you an example:
As a Zerg player in Diamond, I don't know why Protoss don't win every PvZ. The match up is tilted in their favor. They really have no excuse.
- Can't go Hydras because Colossi hard counter them, and because Corruptors suck against Stalkers all my Corruptors get owned, leaving my ground army to die to Colossus fire.
- Can't go Roach because Immortals hard counter them.
- Can't go air because of stalkers.
...
When I win a ZvP, I feel like I was lucky. I can't earn the win - when I win and watch the replay, all I can see are the mistakes the Protoss player made that lost him the game. Negative ghostrider, the pattern is full. Stalkers suck. This is self-evident. Even with Blink, Mutalisks can and do fly circles around them. I want you to show me a replay or other example of Stalkers actually protecting Collosus from Corruptors. They don't provide protection. It is too risky to mass Stalkers against Zerg - so Protoss players shouldn't. Every Zerg unit except Roaches, and maybe even Roaches with burrow micro, beats Stalkers both in speed of production and for cost. Stalkers are just bad. Hydralisks, however are good. Even with having half the life, half the mobility, and being a higher tier in tech, massed Hydralisks will destroy mass Stalkers. Why is this so? The Zerg player doesn't even need to climb the tech tree - go down a peg and make a batch of Speedlings. They'll take care of Stalkers. They move fast enough that Blink stops being worthwhile. So Protoss must go either Templar tech or Collosus tech to deal with Hydralisks. Hydra's incredible damage destroys Void Rays and Carriers, so they aren't even a viable option. It really comes down to either Templars or Collosus. And that brings us to this thread. Zerglings and Hydralisks completely dominate Gateway units. The Zerg masses Lings, which forces the Protoss to mass Zealots because even Collosus can't handle Lings, you need a meat shield of Zealots. So then the Zerg player makes a handful of Banelings and suddenly all those Zealots die. But the Zerg player took a 1/2 supply unit to make a counter to a 2 supply unit. That's called efficiency. Don't play games or say something stupid like a unit that can't attack ground is countered by a ground unit, that's ridiculous. I am actually in the Diamond league losing to Zerg constantly, and I ask them for advice, and they tell me to go Templar because Collosus get beaten by Corruptors. I'm hearing what I am telling you from the Zerg players that are beating me. Open your eyes and wake up, this game will have a rocky birthing process.This game is not balanced. If this game surpasses SC1, it will be because of hype and not quality.
All your problems seem to come down to control really, your just listing all the units that are good against each other and completely ignoring how the game actually plays out, banelings killing your zealots, use FF, pull/blink stalkers in front, pick em off with colossus, corruptors killing your colossus pull back, blink under and kill the corruptors, yah your going to lose some colussus but hes going to lose corruptors and they are pretty expensive too. Zerglings killing your HT's, don't leave your HT's unprotected. And seriously how can you say that colossus don't deal with lings, thats just stupid, ffs upgrade colossus kill rows of them with each attack. Also you need alot of banelings to kill zealots and they are extremely expensive. And Stalkers are bad because mutalisks are more mobile? What does that have to do with anything? no shit an AIR unit can FLY around things, if those mutas try to fight even cost stalkers they will get destroyed no question. It seems like you just want to make that money unit comp and then 1a win, guess what it doesn't work that way, you gotta adjust over time, tech up, scout, control your army.
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I actually like ZvP once you make it past the 4-gate gayness.
Zealots, sentries, stalkers, colossi, immortals, observers, HTs, archons, make a great shifting base while phoenixs and void rays can move around the back looking for ovies/queens to snipe.
Zerglings, roaches, hydralisks, infestors, ultralisks, broodlords and offensive queens are a very nice core army for zerg while banelings and corruptors are still actually useful in this MU.
There is so much tension between easy unit composition changes, very powerful flanking (nydus vs warp prism) and micro spell wars it just makes an awesome midgame.
Any time my PvZs end up here, its this war over creep tumors vs observer, force fields vs ultralisks, and fungal growth vs blink, with these small tiffs whenever our armies bump into each other, with broodlords and colossi taking shots when they can. Neither player wants to fully commit as the army comps are constantly shiting and trying to out flank each other to get the upperhand. Eventually it erupts into this awesome fight and one of the two is declaired a winner.
I don't feel bad if I lose, because I can pick out pretty easily in the replay where my mistakes were made and its just an awesome matchup.
If we could get Zerg through the early game consistantly, this is probably the MU I think will be 2nd funnest to watch as the game evolves. (I'm really looking forward to ZvZ a year or so from now).
Back to the topic at hand, their are a few ways to deal with HTs, none of which are particularly great, but that's pretty normal for zerg at this point in the game. I would have to say lings or roaches coming in from behind are probably the easiest to pull off. A big part of it is making sure your main army is spread out and keep hydras on creep wherever possible (they really need the 50% movement bonus). These two things can just about nullify storm, you don't even have to kill the HT.
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Burrowed roaches are the way to go against ht, when the storm comes, you burrow out of the way, and gradually attack again, when you've got out of the storm range, and had enough hp.
Burrowed Roaches get like the same increase of hp burrowed in the ground, as the damage taken from the storm.
You can fungal growth, Muta snipe like in the brood war days :D.
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EPT
