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my ZvT-mech games usually go like this:
I see they're playing terran, better FE and get some Zerglings with speed upgrade to counter helions, 2+ queens per base in case of banshee
I see they're going mech, i switch production to mass muta/ling forgoing everything else, once i have 20-30 muta (I know its a lot) I go in for the SOLE reason of killing his tanks + wall if i can, sacrificing the mutas
I run in the new hole with zerglings and try to surround his army concentrating on helions -> marines -> marauders -> thors
If I win the fight: go for SCVs wait for "gg" enjoy a sip of diet dr. pepper
If I lose the fight before the mutas kills the tanks and make the hole: Grab another expansion, upgrade my air attack/speed rebuild and cry because it doesn't work the second time either..
If I lose the fight during the zergling phase: switch tech to broodlords/hydras, laugh when I go to their base again and see 3x the number of thors and marines enjoy a sip of diet dr. pepper because I don't need two hands to micro the battle
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I wonder, how do you not die in meanwhile? Since getting 20-30 muta takes a good amount of time.
And how do you actually manage to beat a composition of some marines/turrets/+-3 thors (since I guess that's about how many he would have if you wait for that amount of muta's).
I can't really see how your muta's would survive for a reasonable amount of time and getting counterpushed or just getting pushed while you are getting your muta's.
(and yes I'm sceptical, not going to say it's stupid, i'm asking these questions because I'm generally interested how this would work if terran scouts that (wich he will if he isn't terrible)).
Reps would be welcome.
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I actually play a similar style to what CowFu described. I am running high plat/low diamond so take the experience for what it's worth (so not quite top tier but some decent play, running around 90-100 useful APM if that matters).
Usually open with the 13-14 gas into 12-13 pool. Make drones until 14 or 15 again then 1 overlord before pool, get speed as pool pops and a queen shortly followed by 3 sets of lings. Note this is a baneling bust opening if I scout an easy bust on a small map.
After that, if it isn't steppes against a poor player, I make drones, take an expand and get my baneling nest late and a lair. Keep enough speedlings to stop hellion/reaper (6-10 is all) and if a bunch of marines show up, turn them into banelings and make some more lings.
When lair pops, spire and a bunch more lings (I do make drones throughout, this is a vague build order). Now the spire pops at about the time where the opponent could have banshees, so not worried about that either.
And here is the somewhat more clever part. As the enemy by now is either massing a bioball or teching (he loses if he goes air so let's say teching for thors and tanks) I have a rather flimsy army but the combination of banelings on creep (usually with burrow or speed) defending and muta harass tends to keep the enemy busy and avoid a perfect bioball timing (with the first few medivacs/vikings). If he does go 1 base bioball, I will often trade my expand for his main SCVs, this is because my banelings at the top of the ramp slow him down a lot and the 6-10 mutas in his base will annihilate any SCVs. This means that I win the game on macro a little later.
If the enemy is doing anything but a perfect bioball timing, I will hit him with harass and a baneling bust simultaneously. Usually the harass brings marines away from the wall while the banelings blow up the front. This bust is not meant to kill but it will usually supply lock and can delay some tech and hurt the econ. It also tends to prevent an expansion.
Around the time of that attack I go for my third (the second is somewhat saturated) far away from the opponent (in a 4 player map usually another main).
Now this is what I do and it has some success, the main problems being a player hard turtling and getting to thors a little earlier than my attack. At that point I need to switch (though I usually still get some economic damage in).
The basis of this plan is to use banelings to counter the early bioball and use a delayed baneling bust to get up their ramp (one advantage of a delayed baneling bust is that you can take 12-14 banelings if needed and break through a factory/barracks wall, though I prefer not to have to).
Another key here is to get supply depots as well as SCVs. Terrans often leave them on edges to gain sight or in their wall or behind the mineral line, so if the mutas take out 1 on the way in (or even just pop 2 rounds of attacks into a mineral line one) and the banelings/zerglings take out 2-3 more the opponent is usually badly supply blocked. This means you can spam out units for a quick follow up knowing he can't rebuild all his units fast and can't get all his SCVs back (another nice target is the tech lab for the same reason).
Anyways, I still think we have a problem, and that's the best I have been able to do. Not sure what it's worth at a higher level (it may die to better anti baneling micro or a better executed timing attack).
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Sheth, I agree in many ways but i think you should reconsider the ultralisk. I will try and find a replay of 10 ultralisks spanking 2 armies of gateway units and some robo units in a 2v2 that turned into a 2v1. Granted they were gateway units, but the Ultralisk's aoe damage effect in a wide ramp can be absolutely devastating.
Overall, an awesome analysis. thanks.
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I wouldn't say the ZvT matchup is imbalanced. It's just balanced weirdly.
Zerg has mobility and macro advantage (faster expansion, base saturation, and army production time), while Terran has better "blob-unit" strength and turtling ability, as well as more harassment options.
Because of this, it's a game of Terran harassing and building up the "death-ball" vs zerg expanding and teching to tier 3 quickly.
Terran has the advantage early game, but is forced to harass to contain the expanding zerg
In the midgame it's pretty even as far as who has better aggressive capability. If either race loses their army without destroying the opposing army, he loses
In the lategame, zerg has the advantage due to superior macro and mass broodlords/corrupters. Terran can't produce enough vikings to take air control, and even if he does zerg can just switch to mass roaches and win. The time cost of zerg rebuilding/tech switching is nil, while for Terran it's massive
Is zerg weak? No. Watch how Idra dominated TLO and QXC in the KotB tournament (both very solid terran players. I would've loved to see Idra vs IntoTheRainbow in the finals too).
Is the matchup boring for zerg? Yes. But that's just the flavor of the race: macro macro macro, win in tier 3.
I do think zerg still has harassment options. Baneling bombing or doom dropping. Mutalisks are also devastating as a containment unit, not a harassing unit.
Stopping terran harass is relatively simple. Roaches counter both hellions and reapers, while 2 queens at each base stop any air threat. Once you get mutalisks, terran can't harass at all, but instead has to make riskier timing pushes.
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On August 03 2010 14:00 Calamity wrote:
BTW, has any zerg tried a quick tech to drops? Maybe using lings and roaches and drop into the Terran's main as early as possible. Medivacs drops are devastating sometimes and i'm just wondering if zerg could pull it off with similar effects.
Medivacs don't cost gas and are right in the middle of the techpath.
Investing in drops, costs 300/300 and quite a long time of research (even longer if you only have one hatch). Thats a lot of money in the early game (spire and a muta, 6 hydras or 12 roaches worth of gas) to spend in transportation. Once you have the carriers, you lack the army to drop.
Zerling drops are a good harrass to a open mineral line, but by no means are a way to break an entrenched position.
And if you get attacked while you are 300gas worth of army behind, against a terran with sieged tanks, you have no way to break it. And if they come with a bioball with medivacs, is the same, because after the clash of armies, they heal. And even then, with their mobile army, your drops are even less effective.
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I am a low-level Zerg player, and I lost a game to a friend when he was Terran (his second-best). Afterward, I noticed that I had more workers, a few expansions over him, but couldn't do anything. Missile Turrets nullified ninja-roach plays, he had his supply depots spread out to spot Nydus and Vikings to snipe any Overlords when they tried to scout. I had no clue what he was doing and he could scan at will. His tanks stopped any push. I was maxed-out long before him, but couldn't do anything. I had to wait for him to leave his base. Long story short, Forced to play passively and got roflstomped when I was a few seconds to late on the push.
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It's been months since all top Zergs player and the Zerg community are pointing the obvious imbalance and problems the race have. 3 months beta and the answer we got is that the match making system will allow you to get a 50/50 ratio against all match ups, it's coded for it.
We don't want a 50/50 ratio, we want to stand the same chances in a equal lvl game, and specially have equally hard and taxing macro mechanics. In tournaments no one cares about the 50/50 ratio in match making. Same goes when a terran with 50 less food can decimate you'r 200 food army ..
I'm really pissed at Zerg as a race, specially because i love the race. Right now the ZvZ match up is like playing coin flips. Never played something so boring, and so disgusting as this match up in the actual state of the game. Each time my opponent is a zerg, i just lose all will to play and go for the obliged ''baneling bust'' into muta brain dead cookie cutter strat. Sometimes i go roach or something innovative, and it fails to a baneling bust and i just get pissed and tell to myself stop trying to do something else, banelings works the best, keep at it, even if it's retarded and stupid.
I really hope the race get a fix ...
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I just wish ppl stop comparing SC2 to SC1
tanks, archons, storms, reavers, firebats... AOE worked different while zerg was swarm race
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On August 04 2010 05:19 Izzachar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 04:52 chair wrote:On August 04 2010 04:45 Izzachar wrote:On August 04 2010 04:44 chair wrote:On August 04 2010 04:36 Icx wrote:
Well with that mindset, look at the last day 9 daily.
Do you really want to have most TvZ games to turn out like that? Do I want games which are dynamic, interesting and more than just 200 army vs 200 army? Yes, I do. However I'd also point out that the zerg player made some huge mistakes with his armies that made it take way longer than it should have. Like what? Well if you watch the daily yourself Sean points many of them out during the cast himself. One in particular i'd point out was at the 17-19 minute engagement. He sends a 2 prong attack blind at his opponent, with 2 ultras and zerglings at 5 tanks, and 3 ultras at a marine ball with medivacs. He then proceeds to attack the marineball instead of the siege tanks with the ultras, even the ones that proceeded towards the siege tanks in the first place. Had he sent that force the other way around, 3 ultras towards the tanks and 2 ultras + banelings/zerglings at the bioball, he would have completely rolled that army with ultras to spare. so thats one micro misstake on Zs part for 5sec attacking the not optimal unit. I wouldn't call it "huge". He could have downed the tanks slightly faster but would also have killed less marines, maybe trading armies completely isntead. But the T could also had just built one more engineering bay there and moved tanks in range (just slightly more down) to attack units in range of the bays. He could also have plopped down 1 or 2 in front of his tanks making the attack from that angle even less effective. So that was a minor tweak T could have done as well simply turtling even more safely. Care to give a few examples of huge mistakes the Z did? .
Games can be won or lost on one small micro mistake. I remember pointing this out to a protoss player in 1v1 when he turned around at the last second to his ramp to snipe a low hp unit of mine... and I was able to FF him out of his base. That very small mistake cost him the game.
This, however, is not a small mistake. Choosing not to target armored units when they are right next to your armor killing unit is not a small mistake, it's a lapse in attention. Hitting those marines cost his ultra's 50% dps, or more considering they were being healed by medivacs. Sending him banelings into the middle of a siege storm cost them to be incinerated - complete waste of units.
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On August 03 2010 14:30 Saracen wrote:
If this is Blizzard's mentality, then it's terrible. SC2 was meant to be a standalone game. The fact that they're holding off the next expansion for 18 months attests to this. Are we really supposed to wait 18 months before Blizzard starts "tweaking numbers" again?
i'm pretty sure they said there'd be at least a couple balance patches most likely between now and the expansion.
it's obviously not blizzard's mentality to release an uncompetitive game and wait 2 years or 4 years to make it the real thing out of spite or whatever, and i don't think anyone is trying to argue that. it just helps to keep some perspective on the state of sc1 at this stage in its life.
i actually totally agree with most of what's being said in here about zerg - we have a serious handicap against terran right now. some of it might be adaptable with strategies and tactics but zerg is definitely the reactive one in that match-up. i don't feel nearly as bullied playing against p or z.
but hey look at it this way - if you can win your matches with a handicap you're just that much more of a bad ass.
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[QUOTE]On August 04 2010 06:18 gREIFOCs wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 03 2010 14:00 Calamity wrote:
BTW, has any zerg tried a quick tech to drops? Maybe using lings and roaches and drop into the Terran's main as early as possible. Medivacs drops are devastating sometimes and i'm just wondering if zerg could pull it off with similar effects.[/QUOTE]
Medivacs don't cost gas and are right in the middle of the techpath.
.[/QUOTE
Come again? They cost 100/100
[QUOTE]
Investing in drops, costs 300/300 and quite a long time of research (even longer if you only have one hatch). Thats a lot of money in the early game (spire and a muta, 6 hydras or 12 roaches worth of gas) to spend in transportation. Once you have the carriers, you lack the army to drop.
.[/QUOTE]
300/300 to transform all my supply depots into dropships, I don't really mind
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Still, Sensor Towers and Terran's ability to win base races make doom drops not viable.
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On August 04 2010 07:23 chair wrote:
.
Games can be won or lost on one small micro mistake. I remember pointing this out to a protoss player in 1v1 when he turned around at the last second to his ramp to snipe a low hp unit of mine... and I was able to FF him out of his base. That very small mistake cost him the game.
This, however, is not a small mistake. Choosing not to target armored units when they are right next to your armor killing unit is not a small mistake, it's a lapse in attention. Hitting those marines cost his ultra's 50% dps, or more considering they were being healed by medivacs. Sending him banelings into the middle of a siege storm cost them to be incinerated - complete waste of units.
[/QUOTE]
Well the banes got owned cause they tried engaging a T in defensive position which is what this whole thread is about.
Considering all the small changes T could have done to his play that I mentioned that would stop the aggression at that point in the game even harder. The T could also had his marines surround his tanks as a meat shield. A small micro difference there that would have made the outcome the same.
The Z could have targeted those tanks a little bit sooner, but the T could also had his marines act as meat shields for his tanks. He could have split his marines up to reduce the ultras dps etc etc. A lot of ifs and buts. The T made a lot of sloppy mistakes himself, like the things I mentioned and like having his tanks clumped up so if ultras had gone into range they would all die at the same time. But it still didn't cost him the game. Your argument here so far consist about 1-2 ultras focusing the wrong unit for 5 sec in a 2 hour game as something that could have ended the game differently.
I'm sorry but is that all you got? Does Z winning or loosing games against a turtling opponent come down to flawless micro on Zs part in order to be able to win? One mistake should turn that 2 hour effort into nothing? While T can sit there and wait for Z to do his perfect assault on his base.
Comparing that to FFing a ramp is not nearly the same. You can make yourself vulnerable to that way ahead in time by planning not to simply have a fight against P at your choke if he is sentry heavy. If you have a 2 gold base advantage over opponent a FF at a choke wont exactly win you the game.
While micro should be important. Requiring zerg to drop at the same time as they nydus at the same time as they feint attack the front at the same time as they should make all their units target their proper targets seems simply ridiculous. It can be done but compare it to the effort T has to make, tanks even have smart firing, no micro needed there. I'm not even saying that the MU is unbalanced. I'm saying its uninteresting and its very challenging for a Z to break a turtle T. Wheres turtling is much easier. And you get these games where no one wants to make a move.
A better question is why Z attacked at all? I think that was his biggest mistake. He could have just sat and wait for the T to move out. But the T would never as that would mean he would die. And it would result in a stalemate and thats why the MU is broken. Not that the turtle cannot be broken under very good circumstances and under very good micro or that its unbalanced. It promotes not being aggressive. I cant see that as something positive for either player or for spectators.
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cracklings+ultras absolutely devastate any army composition on open ground. I know that's not the issue at hand but I'm sure we'd see terrans saying zerg is op if every map had less chokes. As for attacking chokes, ultras wreck marauders and siege tanks and thors in most cases. Obviously if you send one up the terran's ramp at a time you'll lose badly but if you support about 4-5 of them with hydras and lings and maybe an infestor to immobilize the terran army your 200/200 group will probably win. Both TLO and Idra have proven this to be true. 
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On August 04 2010 06:18 gREIFOCs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 14:00 Calamity wrote:
BTW, has any zerg tried a quick tech to drops? Maybe using lings and roaches and drop into the Terran's main as early as possible. Medivacs drops are devastating sometimes and i'm just wondering if zerg could pull it off with similar effects. Medivacs don't cost gas and are right in the middle of the techpath. Investing in drops, costs 300/300 and quite a long time of research (even longer if you only have one hatch). Thats a lot of money in the early game (spire and a muta, 6 hydras or 12 roaches worth of gas) to spend in transportation. Once you have the carriers, you lack the army to drop. Zerling drops are a good harrass to a open mineral line, but by no means are a way to break an entrenched position. And if you get attacked while you are 300gas worth of army behind, against a terran with sieged tanks, you have no way to break it. And if they come with a bioball with medivacs, is the same, because after the clash of armies, they heal. And even then, with their mobile army, your drops are even less effective.
Medivacs cost 100/100.
So for the cost of 3 medivacs you get probably ~10+ dropships and any additional dropships that z makes for supplies anyways don't cost gas.
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Where's the creep at in this replay? During the first major encounter (20 minutes in), there's no creep anywhere to help retreat and defend.
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The problem is that Zerg's advantage just doesn't exist. This idea of "quick reinforcement" is just null except for in 40 minute games.
In the rest of the games, that take 10-20 minutes, my units cost money just like yours. Being able to make more of them at once isn't an advantage when you're bottlenecked by resources, not larva.
To all of the Terran and Toss players that say 'try this tech or this tech.' We don't have the luxury of being able to block our choke for the first 10 minutes of the game. We are wide open. If you get scouted it's over. We don't get a Sentry that can just pause the game for 5 minutes. Or a supply depot that gates the choke.
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On August 04 2010 03:20 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 03:14 Cheerio wrote:
The problem with zerg is not that they cant push through terrans choke, and sc1 is irrelevant. Protoss could not do it in sc1 either and not only vs terran but vs zerg as well and they lived somehow. The fact that something is different from sc1 doesn't make it automatically bad or imbalanced. Protoss couldn't do it in sc1 and the matchup was even. Zerg COULD do it in sc1 and the matchup was even. Now Zerg can't do it. SC1 trends don't mean anything to SC2, but the comparison is there if you don't want to get into the detailed mechanics of why zerg can't do it now and what it means for the game. Fortunately the OP provided both the comparison and details of what it means to not be able to break a choke. Thats absolutly wrong. Protoss could push into a terran so i have no idea what your talking about.
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On August 04 2010 05:48 Icx wrote:
I wonder, how do you not die in meanwhile? Since getting 20-30 muta takes a good amount of time.
And how do you actually manage to beat a composition of some marines/turrets/+-3 thors (since I guess that's about how many he would have if you wait for that amount of muta's).
I can't really see how your muta's would survive for a reasonable amount of time and getting counterpushed or just getting pushed while you are getting your muta's.
(and yes I'm sceptical, not going to say it's stupid, i'm asking these questions because I'm generally interested how this would work if terran scouts that (wich he will if he isn't terrible)).
Reps would be welcome.
sorry I couldn't reply sooner Icx, 20-30 mutas are there only to take out the tanks, they are a sacrifice and they will die. they should be able to kill the tanks though (they can't run away fast enough), and without the tanks the army is about 1/3 the usefulness against zerglings that it should be easy-stuff in cleanup. Try to attack the tanks furthest from the thors first.
the easiest way to not be scouted is to put your spire away from your main base (because that will be scanned), and put the rally point for the mutas off the edge of the map.
its not a perfect strat by any means, but its the only thing i've found that CAN crack the terran turtle.
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EPT
