EPTIdrA does it because he really understands the race while most people don't. They just have a higher skill cap.
Zerg Observations - Page 8
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
IdrA does it because he really understands the race while most people don't. They just have a higher skill cap. | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
Him winning KotB has nothing to do with Zerg as a race and everything to do to the fact that he is an excelent player. Put two 70apm scrubs like me in a TvZ and the Zerg will get roflstomped | ||
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General-Gouda
United States45 Posts
Ultralisks are very useful but they only serve to fill a gap in the Zerg's offensive capabilities (tanking damage). Roaches did serve that role as early tank in the beta before they were nerfed into oblivion. Nothing else really accomplishes that role as well as the Ultralisk but since they cannot respond to air units it is difficult to counter air superiority challenges. Brood Lords are great glass cannons but their usefulness takes far too long to mature. They also don't really give a great sense of "OMG WHAT IS THAT?!" similar to BCs, Carriers or Motherships. Maybe if they were as fast as Corruptors... Wishful thinking I know. And once again, they cannot attack air units like BCs, Carriers and Motherships can. I also think that Zerg's upgrades are lack luster. Here is a race that's whole existence hinges upon evolution and yet their evolutionary upgrades don't help much at all within a timely manner. Personally, I think that the good majority of zerg units should start out weak and become more useful and dangerous as they evolve throughout the game. Cheap units...expensive but useful upgrades....upgrades that give utility...not just DPS or Speed...at the right time in the game! Roaches have some nifty upgrades which exemplify this but their upgrades come too little too late. Burrow should be Tier 1 for example so Burrow-move can be researched immediately after the Lair comes out. Why don't we have more units with upgrades like that? Hydras get one upgrade for range. Why not give them a Tier 3 upgrade for something as well? What about Mutalisks? They can't morph into things anymore so why don't they get a Tier 3 side-grade? Fewer units should have more utility. Gives us more upgrades! I'll pay the minerals/gas dangit! Sorry this was so long...I guess I got carried away... A turtling Terran or Protoss should be punished for waiting to kill a Zerg player. A Zerg army at 200/200 should be absolutely, ridiculously powerful (if fully upgraded). That's my take on it... *sigh* | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
Terran kills Zerg very easily early game, and zerg has a lot of trouble with it. But the zerg if he manages to hold on he totally runs over the terran. How would that be a good idea? The terran is annoyed because he has no other option then to go all-in and try to win early because zerg would get to strong later on. And then you would have zerg being annoyed that they die so easily every game in the early game and then just roflstomp over everything if they manage to survive. hell, if you think about it, this is actually a bit how the matchup plays out a bit atm, with the difference that if the zerg manages to hold he doesn't automatically stomps all over the T, but can now start to really fight back instead of trying to survive. I'd rather have less then that, altough there is always gonna be some points in the game where race X has an advantage over race Y, but from a balanced game I would expect that both races have roughly the same fighting strength troughout the game. And more upgrades? no thanks, let us take a rough game. Zerg already has so many expensive upgrades, ling speed, roach speed, hydra range, bling speed, burrow, overlord speed, overlord drop, melee attack, ground armor, ranged attack, the 2 flyer upgrades, nydus worms, roach burrow movement, ultra armor, etc. I'm already very happy that there is no longer a roach carapace and ultra speed upgrade, but already troughout the game you have to make big choices and watch out with them, because for example overlord drop while getting roach speed and +1 is already a rather large investment in tech imo. Or maybe there is place for more upgrades, but the problem is, troughout the game your so trying to hang on and trying to push out units to not die immediatly while trying to stay ahead in dronecount that it's sometimes hard to find good places to fit in those critical upgrades. Because for example, that 300/300 in overlord drop could have been a good amount of roaches/banelings to keep me alive against that MMM push that is coming for my base, or he went banshee's I had to get out a hydra den and some hydra's for his air and a detector. (since in my experience if you don't react to the first banshee he will just mass like 4-6 and rape you, queens are only enough to try to stall). But now I spent all that gas into that and I have to cut an upgrade or delay my burrow and roach burrow movement. Maybe if zerg had better defense mechanism that I would change my opinion on this, but in the current state of zerg more upgrades is not a good idea imo. | ||
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General-Gouda
United States45 Posts
When roaches learn speed and burrowed movement they are a new unit of sorts. They have new viability and flexibility in battle. Zerglings into Banelings is another great example. Hydras into Lurkers in SC1 was a great example. It gave utility to units that were useful for one portion of the game but need to change to keep up in later portions of the game. This is what I mean by "upgrades". Change the unit without changing the concept of the unit. Why couldn't they do something like that for Hydras and Mutalisks as well? | ||
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Kronologic
Great Britain45 Posts
Make the spawning pool optional i.e. allow zerg to build all the tier 1 buildings and the queen right off the bat. Exceptions being the baneling (nest as obviously you need lings for that) and spore crawlers (evo chamber) Give banelings an upgrade that will allow us to do more damage to armored units. "Corrosive goo" reduce armor by 1 (non-stacking) Its armored units that ruin us. (IMO) | ||
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H.k[D]
United States260 Posts
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crucial99
United States5 Posts
But really, I just feel like against any diamond Terran it is their game to lose the whole time. They sit back behind a wall producing enough minerals to come at me with 5 different effective methods of harass while I am struggling to survive. Only to find out at 12 minutes that all of that harass really didn't cost them anything and they have an equal food count army to me composed of units that are straight up better than mine. | ||
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Castaface
Finland34 Posts
On August 04 2010 23:07 Kronologic wrote: I find it a bit odd that in the "Massable, Swarm army" only 1 unit costs exactly 1 supply. The Drone. Lings/blings = 0.5 supply Everything else 2+ supply. I too am struggling as zerg. I honestly don't know how IdrA does it to be honest. Props to him doing so well so consistently. Check Idra vs Silver games and see how consistent his ZvT is. Not taking anything away from Silver though - he's a solid player. Idra didn't exactly get to play a lot of ZvT's in the KotB. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/150 http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/149 Zerg just seems really map/position dependant atm. On same maps you just don't get to play zerg "how it's meant to be played". Reaching the point in the game where you can afford constant dropping / Nydusing / massive tech switches doesn't happen too often. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On August 05 2010 02:54 Kronologic wrote: 2 changes I'd make Make the spawning pool optional i.e. allow zerg to build all the tier 1 buildings and the queen right off the bat. Exceptions being the baneling (nest as obviously you need lings for that) and spore crawlers (evo chamber) Give banelings an upgrade that will allow us to do more damage to armored units. "Corrosive goo" reduce armor by 1 (non-stacking) Its armored units that ruin us. (IMO) This would hardly change anything. We need Zerglings to deal with early harass. And 6 Roach Warren rushing someone might be overpowered. Reducing armor by 1 hardly does anything. What are you trying to accomplish with these changes? | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
As for 10 of your units not being able to beat 10 enemy units of similar tech level. Four Lings 100m2s Zealot 100m2s 2 Marines100m2s Roach: 75m25g2s Stalker 125m50g2s Marauder 100m25g2s 10 roaches shouldn't beat 10 stalkers or 10 marauders, both of whom have a bonus against armored units given the cost difference. 4 zerglings will beat a zealot or 2 marines any day of the week, plus they have a speed upgrade that makes them amazing backstab units. As for area effect, you have banelings and infestors. Both of which can devastate a group of units crammed together on a ramp. Bottom line, if you are playing zerg, you shouldn't have to be playing defensively. | ||
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Sid
Slovakia8 Posts
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Antpile
United States213 Posts
Back in those days, we had options. Like i can see why neural parasite is no longer indefinite, but why the research upgrade? I think it'd also be safe to give roaches 2 armor again since they are now 2 supply, and the nydus worm popping faster would be huge for zerg. | ||
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On August 05 2010 03:36 bobcat wrote: You are aware that as a zerg player, defending is supposed to be your weak point right? You can produce units the quickest as well as produce the quickest units, you have the adaptability and ability to rebuild your forces of a 4 gate protoss player, you are the only race who can take an expansion at the beginning of the game and still hold off a rush. As for 10 of your units not being able to beat 10 enemy units of similar tech level. Four Lings 100m2s Zealot 100m2s 2 Marines100m2s Roach: 75m25g2s Stalker 125m50g2s Marauder 100m25g2s 10 roaches shouldn't beat 10 stalkers or 10 marauders, both of whom have a bonus against armored units given the cost difference. 4 zerglings will beat a zealot or 2 marines any day of the week, plus they have a speed upgrade that makes them amazing backstab units. As for area effect, you have banelings and infestors. Both of which can devastate a group of units crammed together on a ramp. Bottom line, if you are playing zerg, you shouldn't have to be playing defensively. Is that why both terran and protoss have better options for early pressure? Is that why so many people are talking about delaying the terran mid game so you can get to tier 3? I wouldn't call zerg a very aggressive race atm. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On August 05 2010 01:48 General-Gouda wrote: I envision the Zerg as being something that starts out small and weak and eventually builds itself up into a huge and massive flood of organic death. The beginning and mid game seems to reflect that pretty well but the end game can leave something to be desired. The race you are thinking of is called the protoss. Zerg are very strong early start that winds down as the game progresses due to increasing difficulty to micro manage as well as a lack of efficiency versus powerful late game protoss and terran units like siege tanks, colossuses, phoenixes and vikings. To compensate for this shortcoming in the common case that the zerg come up against a turtle, you are capable of expanding and fortifying expansions far more quickly than your opponents. Thus, with a constant resource advantage if you are able to keep your unspent resources low, you shouldn't have much trouble having more forces than your opponent, if you can position them well so that you aren't running head first into a wall of bullets and lazers you can take out a terran ball or a protoss force. | ||
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General-Gouda
United States45 Posts
On August 05 2010 03:58 bobcat wrote: The race you are thinking of is called the protoss. Zerg are very strong early start that winds down as the game progresses due to increasing difficulty to micro manage as well as a lack of efficiency versus powerful late game protoss and terran units like siege tanks, colossuses, phoenixes and vikings. To compensate for this shortcoming in the common case that the zerg come up against a turtle, you are capable of expanding and fortifying expansions far more quickly than your opponents. Thus, with a constant resource advantage if you are able to keep your unspent resources low, you shouldn't have much trouble having more forces than your opponent, if you can position them well so that you aren't running head first into a wall of bullets and lazers you can take out a terran ball or a protoss force. A lack of a wall in for Zerg makes them weaker in my opinion. The need for Zerg to expand quickly makes them weaker in my opinion. Since you can't 1 base as long like Terran or Protoss can it means that the Zerg need to be aggressive in their expanding and Macro just to keep up. That, coupled with a lack of diversity in their early harassment opportunities, makes Zerg weaker in the early game. This is NOT to say that Zerg cannot defend themselves. Well placed spine crawlers and a ton of speedlings will crush just about anything. But the fact that the Zerg MUST put down static defense just to defend properly is where I take issue. Protoss and Terran can put down useful buildings that build units or that give supply and successfully defend against an attack. Zerg must sacrifice a drone to put down a building which does nothing but attack within a localized radius. Now, if there was an easy way for the Zerg to wall in I'd reconsider but as of right now it costs too much and takes too much time for not that much gain. Zerg NEEDS to expand so walling in isn't that much of an option right now anyways. | ||
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Kronologic
Great Britain45 Posts
On August 05 2010 03 Whole wrote: This would hardly change anything. We need Zerglings to deal with early harass. And 6 Roach Warren rushing someone might be overpowered. Reducing armor by 1 hardly does anything. What are you trying to accomplish with these changes? It would allow you to get your economy up faster, creep out further, static defenses out sooner. Roaches out sooner (to deal with Zealot rushes) It would give you more flexibility. Roaches need gas so I can't see a 6 warren being that effective. If I said "Removes all armor" then some one would say "omg imba" | ||
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CrunkOwns
United States138 Posts
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On August 05 2010 03:58 bobcat wrote: The race you are thinking of is called the protoss. Zerg are very strong early start that winds down as the game progresses due to increasing difficulty to micro manage as well as a lack of efficiency versus powerful late game protoss and terran units like siege tanks, colossuses, phoenixes and vikings. To compensate for this shortcoming in the common case that the zerg come up against a turtle, you are capable of expanding and fortifying expansions far more quickly than your opponents. Thus, with a constant resource advantage if you are able to keep your unspent resources low, you shouldn't have much trouble having more forces than your opponent, if you can position them well so that you aren't running head first into a wall of bullets and lazers you can take out a terran ball or a protoss force. The race Bobcat is thinking about is Zerg, but the race he must be playing is... something else. Zerg at the moment is really weak in terms of early game pressure if not going an all in build, think about how easy right now it is to wall in as Terran or throw down a Force Field. Yes Zerg right now to compensate CAN indeed expand and aim for map control. But eventually you're going to have to push towards an enemy base. In my games in 200 vs 200 supply fights I BARELY come out on top. Consider this, if you're already capped on food, what good is an expansion? Zerg right now also is riddled with a supply problem in my mind. They are forced to expand to keep up with enemy Fighter Production. But they must also pump out drones which continues to take up supply. Also consider that Zerg has only one 1 supply Fighter unit ( Lings.) I agree with the OP's posts, Zerg seems to be missing some offensive utilities. | ||
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AdonaiMSRT
United States8 Posts
1.) Bring scourge back. They were excellent AA and they felt "swarmy," in true Zerg style. Half a dozen of those patrolling a base would be strong defensive deterrent against banshee or VR harass. 2.) Return Hydralisks to their former place of glory as a teir 1.5 tech. Both other races have a viable AA attacker below tech 2 (marines for T, stalkers for P), but Zerg has queen? That's hardly a comparison, as the queen is almost a defensive structure tied to the creep. 3.) in response to change #2, make roaches a viable teir 2 option. They are supposedly zerg "tanks," so make them an intermediary b/w zergling and ultra. Increase health, in-game cross-section (make them bigger), and buff attack against armor and/or buildings. As it stands, the ideal zerg answer to armor is the teir 3 ultra, which only applies in late game. The roach swap and buff to teir 2 would provide a legitimate mid-game answer. 4.) Another spellcaster, as Piski noted earlier. Preferably, one ability would be to spawn a small swarm of units and incite panic within the terran ball. Infested terrans don't match up to, say, two or three dozen bloodlings. 5.) Another creep tumor option. Instead of spawning an additional creep tumor, the creep tumor could hearken back to its days of creep colonies and transform into a defensive structure. I imagine it would be a one-tile thing with the attack and range of a hydralisk. Good to stop harasses and stall advancing enemies. This transformation would preclude another creep tumor forming, and could not be used if a creep tumor had been placed by it. 6.) Return Ensnare to queen. She could then slow down the harrassers that Zerg must spend so much time and effort to repel. Okay, rant over. But that was needed to explain my zerg observations. The zerg appear to be the least adaptable race of the three. This is why many zerg builds end with, "And then see what the terrans do." Returning to point number 2 above, if the enemy decides to fast tech to air, both T and P already have a small mass of units to deal with the problem at the start of mid-game (marines and stalkers). The zerg, on the other hand, had better tech to hydras or mutas when the initial attack is blocked by a wall. The tech may not come in time. When it comes to breaking a terran wall, the other two races have a tremoundous array of options. Terrans and protoss can actually attack while invisible, unlike burrowed units. The baneling can only do this defensively, and zerg are supposedly the aggressive race. The other species can surmount cliffs with reapers or blink, whereas zerg has no wallclimbing unit. We have drops and nydus, but the other races have drops too. Protoss have have warpgate/warp-prism, which is incredibly faster than nydus. Terran has no alternative to drop like nydus, but their air has the range to clear a path, however short lived. We have established that vs Z, no path needs to be cleared, as there is no legitimate static D. Their ground units also have the range to attack without actually entering a base or using a ramp. This applies to terran marines, marauders, ghosts, reapers, vikings, siege, thor, BC, and banshees, while protoss has stalker, HT, Immortal, Collossus, VR, Carrier. Zerg has only Hydras and brood lords for this, as the short range of roach and muta is laughable as a melee substitute. Overall, I think it needs to be said that NO ONE RACE SHOULD BE ADVANTAGED/DISADVANTAGED IN ANY OF EARLY, MID, OR LATE GAME. To summarize the last two pages, zerg is UP in early and mid-game. Addressing Zerg mobility, that is a joke. The zerg have lings and mutas. As zerg, I constantly have to wait for the remainder of my forces to catch up to the zerglings. An army can only move as fast as its slowest member. Creep covering the attack route is not plausible until the lair. Another problem is that so many units are not viable until they have been upgraded. Who uses zerglings instead of speedlings? Banelings have little hope of breaking a tank wall without their speed upgrade either. If roaches are designed around burrow regeneration, why is burrow such a late tech? The units are not complete units without these upgrades. Tech switching is also very difficult for the zerg. If a terran's reaper harass has failed, he has already teched to marauders. If his hellion harass is over, that's fine. It was "part of his regularly scheduled tech tree." If the banshee harass doesn't work out, it's okay, he's finished the tech tree. The protoss are not as easy to tech switch as the terrans, but better than the zerg. A robo facility opens three possibilities with no other buildings. The cyber core adds two to the gateway and is part of the regularly scheduled tech tree. For the zerg, they basically have a different tech building for every unit. They have to choose which direction they want to adapt, because vespene and time is too valuable to waste. If they choose wrong, they lose because the other race's units are so adaptable. Failed to scout that wall on the ramp? That's okay, the protoss mixed force can take the wall head-on, use HT and sentry abilities while blinking and collussus cliffwalking past the wall. If immortals are included, as is standard, the tanks can be killed easily. If T doesn't have detectors ready, DT will make short work of an unprepared force. The terrans can set up seige tanks or the ultimate wallbreaker, the Thor's 250mm ability. BC yamato's can take out buildings in a hit-and-run style, and cloaked banshees can be more destructive than even the DT. A ghost can nuke the d*** wall, and the MMM ball can brutalize the wall through equality of supply-force. (That is, the amount of punch you get at 200/200.) For being so mobile and so "swarmy," the zerg units cost a lot of supply and don't have many options when faced with the unexpected. Scourge, noted above, address the supply issue somewhat, and the roach/hydra switch would go a long way into making zerg more adaptable between ground and air. Almost every P and T unit has a special ability, but most zerg attack units lack this (zergling, hydra, muta, ultra, even the roach's burrow-move must be researched). The ability to transform was a given considering SCBW and only serves to slow down the zerg force, having to take two steps to reach its usable composition. As a final note, there should never be an iron-solid strat that cannot be beaten. I.e, if T goes tanks, P knows to go immortals or air. If P goes VR, T knows to mass marines or vikings. If T decides to wall up, there should be strategies for Zerg to break through if conducted coherently, as opposed to perfectly. Outmacroing by four times for even match is not legitimate balance. Zerg is UP. So I lied, the rant was not over. | ||
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