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Bemith
12 Posts
I've been playing a bunch of matches recently and I seem to be having trouble defeating the terran bioball in the early game. Here's an Example Game: [url blocked] I started with a 14 pool 16 hatch and was working towards hydralisks and roaches because I scouted that he was indeed going for a bio ball attack to begin with. Problem is I can never seem to get enough units to stop the initial attack and then it's gg from there. Any suggestions from other zerg players would be helpful, thanks! | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
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kalendae
United States47 Posts
thanks much, really having trouble with terran as zerg right now in plat. | ||
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Perdition
American Samoa77 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
@Kal: If you're unsure, you should always sac an overlord. Timing is something that has to be figured out in practice. If you expand, you just make more stuff, normally roach hydra. In the case of Muta Baneling zergling you don't "bust", you just attack normally. | ||
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
You need Speedlings and Sunkens early and of course take your natural. If he goes for an early push, add Banelings (Can be scouted by Barracks with Reactor). If he's heavier on Marauders, just plain Speedlings are enough. If he doesn't push out early, tech to Lair and try to Harass with Mutas and than add Banelings if he pumps Marines. Later, add some Infestors and get Map Control. Try not to waste any of your Mutas into his Turrets or stimmed Marines. Catch his Dropships with your Mutas if he tries to Drop you. Banelings own Marines Speedlings own Marauders Mutas own Marauders Infestors own Bioball Hydra Roach doesn't really work against Bio because Marauder counter Roach pretty heavily and Marines deal the damage against anything else. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:55 Bemith wrote: I started with a 14 pool 16 hatch and was working towards hydralisks and roaches because I scouted that he was indeed going for a bio ball attack to begin with. Can't watch the replay, but here's the problem. You don't want roach -> hydralisk. You want speedling/baneling -> muta. | ||
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Bemith
12 Posts
On August 03 2010 03:13 Melt wrote: Bioball is not that hard to handle. You need Speedlings and Sunkens early and of course take your natural. If he goes for an early push, add Banelings (Can be scouted by Barracks with Reactor). If he's heavier on Marauders, just plain Speedlings are enough. If he doesn't push out early, tech to Lair and try to Harass with Mutas and than add Banelings if he pumps Marines. Later, add some Infestors and get Map Control. Try not to waste any of your Mutas into his Turrets or stimmed Marines. Catch his Dropships with your Mutas if he tries to Drop you. Banelings own Marines Speedlings own Marauders Mutas own Marauders Infestors own Bioball Hydra Roach doesn't really work against Bio because Marauder counter Roach pretty heavily and Marines deal the damage against anything else. Thanks I'll have to try some games after work with this thinking  | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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TrogdorBurninate
United States104 Posts
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
Otherwise if you would have just stayed in your base with the units you had and made the lings into banelings you would've blown that army back to whatever you wanna choose. Hydras/roach don't work that great since they already have a overwhelming force at that point, baneling/roach/speedling or roach/baneling or Speedling/baneling is sufficent vs that kind of bioball spec since it's so early and all. They won't last long vs the rollingbomEDIT:and as many said already, infestors later on is prime! | ||
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FallacyGaming
36 Posts
On August 03 2010 03:05 kalendae wrote: some additional questions to you folks who can handle the bioball decently. how can you tell they are going bio ball when they've walled in. I have trouble figuring out if it is bioball or banshees, should i sac an overlord to take a peek? what is the best time to do that? and when you have a good mix of baneling + other units do you try to bust in or just map control and expand. how do you eventually win if you take the expand route? thanks much, really having trouble with terran as zerg right now in plat. YES do that | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 03 2010 03:05 kalendae wrote: I have trouble figuring out if it is bioball or banshees, should i sac an overlord to take a peek? what is the best time to do that? well that depends. Do you want to know what your opponent is getting? Or do you want to prepare for ALL of the following? -igniter hellions -hellion drop -mass hellion -hellion/marauder -mass marine -marine/tank push -thor drop -fast thor -marine/marauder -fast banshee -nitro reapers as for timing, I haven't figured out the perfect timing, but I usually send the overlord in sometime when my 2nd queen is building (soon after your FE hatch finishes) | ||
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rhythmrenegade
Belgium201 Posts
For starters, work on your opening. You have a pretty sloppy 15 hatch (very late). - First, research says 9-overlord is the best economic expansion for a zerg (if you're not planning to go 6 or 7 spawning pool), so why not try that on for size first of all. - Build an extractor early and put drones on gas as soon as you start the spawning pool. Zergling speed will change the way you play early game. - Upgrade to a lair ASAP after using gas for zergling speed. Early hydras prevent against all of the following: banshees, vikings, medvac drops; void rays, phoenixes; mutalisks. Early hydras significantly increase your army's DPS as well. - If the game moves on to midgame, always get the movement and transport upgrades for your overlords, and always have a few banelings on hand to load into an overlord or two. One overlord holds 4 banelings, 8 banelings dropped on the middle of a bioball during a fight is enough to wipe out _at least_ 1/3 of the bio ball, and they may well melt 1/2 or 3/4 of the enemy troops! Please baneling drop your opponent's SCV line whenever possible. - In mid/late game, roaches with burrowing claws can decimate a tankline if unborrowed with attention to timing and placement. This is important because 3-4 sieged tanks will ruin a zergling/hydra army before it has time to deal significant damage to a bioball. I don't yet have good enough game sense or micro to make use of infestors, but freezing an army and neural parasiting the siege tanks behind it while your zerg swarm attacks it seems like a good tactic. And remember, baneling drop whenever possible. Here is a long ZvT match from earlier today if you would like to see a platinum-level zerg pull out a victory against terran using some of the tactics described above: Replay Here | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Bioballs are the easiest things in the universe to fight. Make mass speedling/baneling into mutas. Bio is not even a viable strategy past earlygame because once bane speed is out you can't dodge banelings and you'll just lose horribly to them. Don't ever ever ever make hydras vs terran if you can help it. They are horrible horrible units. | ||
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Bemith
12 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:52 rhythmrenegade wrote: hi Bemith, I'm near the top of a platinum ladder group on the EU server, a bit better than you but not at all very good. For starters, work on your opening. You have a pretty sloppy 15 hatch (very late). - First, research says 9-overlord is the best economic expansion for a zerg (if you're not planning to go 6 or 7 spawning pool), so why not try that on for size first of all. - Build an extractor early and put drones on gas as soon as you start the spawning pool. Zergling speed will change the way you play early game. - Upgrade to a lair ASAP after using gas for zergling speed. Early hydras prevent against all of the following: banshees, vikings, medvac drops; void rays, phoenixes; mutalisks. Early hydras significantly increase your army's DPS as well. - If the game moves on to midgame, always get the movement and transport upgrades for your overlords, and always have a few banelings on hand to load into an overlord or two. One overlord holds 4 banelings, 8 banelings dropped on the middle of a bioball during a fight is enough to wipe out _at least_ 1/3 of the bio ball, and they may well melt 1/2 or 3/4 of the enemy troops! Please baneling drop your opponent's SCV line whenever possible. - In mid/late game, roaches with burrowing claws can decimate a tankline if unborrowed with attention to timing and placement. This is important because 3-4 sieged tanks will ruin a zergling/hydra army before it has time to deal significant damage to a bioball. I don't yet have good enough game sense or micro to make use of infestors, but freezing an army and neural parasiting the siege tanks behind it while your zerg swarm attacks it seems like a good tactic. And remember, baneling drop whenever possible. Here is a long ZvT match from earlier today if you would like to see a platinum-level zerg pull out a victory against terran using some of the tactics described above: Replay Here Thank you I will definately work on the stuff you mentioned thanks for taking the time to watch it | ||
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rhythmrenegade
Belgium201 Posts
Pay attention to what the other posters are saying about Hydras. In my replay you can see that they don't work very well vs. the bioball, although I have found that early in the mid game they are effective. I haven't gotten to the point yet where I really understand each race MU, I think I'll try to go more queen less hydra from now on, to try out, vs. terran. | ||
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rhythmrenegade
Belgium201 Posts
The DPS is just too great for marines. Also, I don't really have a firm BO for banelings so that might be the issue here, whereas my hydra BO is built on my experience and quite solid. Anyone care to share their personal preference for a baneling BO vs terran? Versus zerg, I find that I often have to 7-8 pool just to survive, and if they 12-13 pool then I get 4-5 free drone kills. After that the enemy usually pumps mass zerglings for a counter attack, so I continue to pump lings, fend off the attack, expand and move on to mid game... Thoughts? | ||
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StarcraftGuy4U
United States74 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:39 BlasiuS wrote: well that depends. Do you want to know what your opponent is getting? Or do you want to prepare for ALL of the following? -igniter hellions -hellion drop -mass hellion -hellion/marauder -mass marine -marine/tank push -thor drop -fast thor -marine/marauder -fast banshee -nitro reapers as for timing, I haven't figured out the perfect timing, but I usually send the overlord in sometime when my 2nd queen is building (soon after your FE hatch finishes) You forgot mass ravens, mass ghosts, and some other things I can't think of at the moment. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
On August 03 2010 06:56 Floophead_III wrote: Uh, wtf. Bioballs are the easiest things in the universe to fight. Make mass speedling/baneling into mutas. Bio is not even a viable strategy past earlygame because once bane speed is out you can't dodge banelings and you'll just lose horribly to them. Don't ever ever ever make hydras vs terran if you can help it. They are horrible horrible units. I actually lost against a marine/tank push. I sent in splings and blings when his tanks sieged; his marines just stimmed and ran away (faster than blings with speed) while his tanks splashed the blings quickly, the speedlings couldn't take the tanks out before the marines returned. But 99% of the time against bio all it takes is a massive amount of blings and some speedlings | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On August 03 2010 21:22 KaiserJohan wrote: I actually lost against a marine/tank push. I sent in splings and blings when his tanks sieged; his marines just stimmed and ran away (faster than blings with speed) while his tanks splashed the blings quickly, the speedlings couldn't take the tanks out before the marines returned. But 99% of the time against bio all it takes is a massive amount of blings and some speedlings Of course Marine Tank is bio mech, not a bio ball. XD. Banelings don't work versus tank, though I think mayhaps Roach baneling infestor into ultras might work. Worth messing around with, nonetheless. Like anything with tanks, positioning is key. | ||
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jayDzZz
Norway28 Posts
On August 03 2010 03:10 Perdition wrote: As a Diamond Terran you honestly need Fungal Growth to fight a fully upgrade 200/200 bioball. Your hydras will out range my marines. Throw twenty banelings in your mix and my army is gone. Hope that helped. What diamond game are you playing where you get to amass a 200/200 army??? | ||
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LF9
United States537 Posts
On August 03 2010 06:56 Floophead_III wrote: Uh, wtf. Bioballs are the easiest things in the universe to fight. Make mass speedling/baneling into mutas. Bio is not even a viable strategy past earlygame because once bane speed is out you can't dodge banelings and you'll just lose horribly to them. Don't ever ever ever make hydras vs terran if you can help it. They are horrible horrible units. Disregard this. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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Wihl
Sweden472 Posts
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rhythmrenegade
Belgium201 Posts
Would some other (platinum/diamond) players post replays of builds such as StarcraftGuy4U's "13 pool, 13 gas, baneling nest as soon as the spawning pool pops? If you are doing a FE then drop the baneling nest at 17-18, shortly after the FE is building and you have that first wave of lings." For myself, I've had much more effectiveness vs. just about everything going fast hydras than getting banelings. Banelings can be a much bigger sink for your economy than you plan if things don't go well, and they don't defend vs muta or viking harass after the enemy transitions out of lings&roaches/bio. Also, if your opponent goes roaches and you don't see them all those banelings are 50/50 (because you need a zerg to make a baneling...) nerf balls. In my games, banelings always come into play in the later game, when your unit composition allows easier flanking, overlord drops onto an army in the middle of a fight, etc. I can't recommend them early game until I figure out how to be as consistent with zerg/bling as I am with hydras, or multiple people post replays vs. a variety of opponents. edit: MASSIVE amounts (16+) of banelings demolish a (poorly microd) ling/hydra army, however to be in a position where you can spare 16 banelings you're probably already in the lead | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 03 2010 20:03 MythicalMage wrote: You forgot mass ravens, mass ghosts, and some other things I can't think of at the moment. I'm pretty sure you don't need to prepare for mass ravens or mass ghosts in the first 7 or 8 minutes of the game | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On August 03 2010 21:40 jayDzZz wrote: What diamond game are you playing where you get to amass a 200/200 army??? He is probably one of those good players that don't do all-in pushes every game and one that actually knows how to macro. | ||
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Gyro
Norway36 Posts
On August 03 2010 19:45 rhythmrenegade wrote: I tested out going early baneling vs terran today, and the results were quite disappointing. I find banelings work best mid- to late-game, while hydras do a much better job of reinforcing a zergling/zerg-roach army in the early to mid- game vs. terran. The DPS is just too great for marines. Also, I don't really have a firm BO for banelings so that might be the issue here, whereas my hydra BO is built on my experience and quite solid. Anyone care to share their personal preference for a baneling BO vs terran? Versus zerg, I find that I often have to 7-8 pool just to survive, and if they 12-13 pool then I get 4-5 free drone kills. After that the enemy usually pumps mass zerglings for a counter attack, so I continue to pump lings, fend off the attack, expand and move on to mid game... Thoughts? If you see him massing bio, just spread creep and make some banelings + zerlings and some roaches. Don't attack, just wait and macro up. The important thing about banelings is that you don't attack with them, just move-click them into/around his units. | ||
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jayDzZz
Norway28 Posts
On August 04 2010 01:53 Whole wrote: You thank your Bioballing opponent for the free win and you go Banelings and Speedlings. Throw in Mutalisks and Roaches later if you want. He is probably one of those good players that don't do all-in pushes every game and one that actually knows how to macro. Yeah all diamond players sit on their base until they reach 200/200 just macroing. Right. | ||
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rhythmrenegade
Belgium201 Posts
Ling/Muta vs. BioBall I scouted a tech-lab at his barracks block off and when no reapers came assumed it was for marauders/marines bioball... Went mutas to harass, which worked because his marines were all gushy messes of acidified flesh, then he went vikings to counter and I swarmed his base with two control groups of speedlings. Mass speedlings works well on maps with destructables :o (at least in mid-upper platinum) Hope this replay helps. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 03 2010 21:22 KaiserJohan wrote: I actually lost against a marine/tank push. I sent in splings and blings when his tanks sieged; his marines just stimmed and ran away (faster than blings with speed) while his tanks splashed the blings quickly, the speedlings couldn't take the tanks out before the marines returned. But 99% of the time against bio all it takes is a massive amount of blings and some speedlings If he pushes he should be on your creep unless he is actively scanning your tumours. So banelings should be fine against bio mech early pushes. Also infestors with fungal are vital. | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On August 03 2010 06:56 Floophead_III wrote: Uh, wtf. Bioballs are the easiest things in the universe to fight. Make mass speedling/baneling into mutas. Bio is not even a viable strategy past earlygame because once bane speed is out you can't dodge banelings and you'll just lose horribly to them. Don't ever ever ever make hydras vs terran if you can help it. They are horrible horrible units. This is pretty much spot-on. Bio is the least frightening of the terran options, and hydras are LOL-bad against everything terran's got on the ground. Also, fungal growth is amazingly pathetic vs bio. The damage is quickly healed by medivacs, and if the fight is happening on creep then they are immobile anyway (relatively speaking). Zergling surround them and the banelings will do the rest. For that 150 gas, would you rather have 2 FG's or 6 banelings? Fungal growth deals 36 damage over 8 seconds to an area, banelings deal 35 damage instantly over a slightly smaller area. 2 FG with a damage cap of 36, or 6 banelings with a damage cap of 210 (105 vs armored). Hmm.... which one to pick? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
Vs cloaked banshees you need something to actually kill them. Why not get a few spore crawlers that detect AND kill them? Actually, are you just trolling? =\ | ||
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