| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
DarthLeader
Canada123 Posts
I really like mutalisks and I have been doing the ZvT 1 base muta against pretty much all races. It works so so in the top of the plat league. Is there any viable 2 base mutalisk for plat players ? I've seen some videos: (for vs bad players) (upgraded version of the first video) So, any thoughts ? DarthLeader | ||
|
cr4ckshot
United States291 Posts
Against Terran, turrets and thors shut down any harassment. You may kill a depot or 3-4 scvs but you invented in 600-700 minerals/gas! It's not even worth the investment. Plus mutalisks don't even contribute to the main Zerg army because they get torn by stimmed marines. Against Protoss, once he sends an observer to scout your early spire, he will either go blinked stalkers with guardian shield or mass phoenixes (no micro required lol). If he goes the phoenix route, say bye to your mutalisks AND overlords. Against Zerg, one fungal growth is all it takes to shut down mass mutalisks. There are just so many better options to go as Zerg. Yes, that means Zerg lacks unit diversity but that's the way the cookie crumbles. | ||
|
QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
| ||
|
Mr.Minionman
United States164 Posts
On July 17 2010 23:22 cr4ckshot wrote: This is just my opinion but I don't find mutalisks viable at all in any matchup. Against Terran, turrets and thors shut down any harassment. You may kill a depot or 3-4 scvs but you invented in 600-700 minerals/gas! It's not even worth the investment. Plus mutalisks don't even contribute to the main Zerg army because they get torn by stimmed marines. Against Protoss, once he sends an observer to scout your early spire, he will either go blinked stalkers with guardian shield or mass phoenixes (no micro required lol). If he goes the phoenix route, say bye to your mutalisks AND overlords. Against Zerg, one fungal growth is all it takes to shut down mass mutalisks. There are just so many better options to go as Zerg. Yes, that means Zerg lacks unit diversity but that's the way the cookie crumbles. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Corruptor remember this guy? They aren't just for sniping Collosi, you know. | ||
|
Noocta
France12578 Posts
| ||
|
Guilloteen
United States128 Posts
On July 17 2010 23:22 cr4ckshot wrote: This is just my opinion but I don't find mutalisks viable at all in any matchup. Against Terran, turrets and thors shut down any harassment. You may kill a depot or 3-4 scvs but you invented in 600-700 minerals/gas! It's not even worth the investment. Plus mutalisks don't even contribute to the main Zerg army because they get torn by stimmed marines. Against Protoss, once he sends an observer to scout your early spire, he will either go blinked stalkers with guardian shield or mass phoenixes (no micro required lol). If he goes the phoenix route, say bye to your mutalisks AND overlords. Against Zerg, one fungal growth is all it takes to shut down mass mutalisks. There are just so many better options to go as Zerg. Yes, that means Zerg lacks unit diversity but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Typical of mediocre Zerg players nowadays to qq about Zerg's lack of versatility. As a terran player I'll straight up admit that yes, Terran is just a bit overpowered against Zerg, but still, a group of Mutalisks in the hands of any mildly competent Zerg player, while maybe not detrimental, can be EXTREMELY annoying and effective. Mutas are viable in EVERY MU not ANY as this person likes to think. Anyways, while I think Mutas are nice, I think teching straight to Mutas for Mutas at the 8 minute mark is not so effective. By that time, a 1 base Terran player can bust in and kill you with a massive ground army too big to stop with the number of Mutas that will be coming out. What I would like to see, and it would be better if you figured it out on your own, is a early game strategy that'll let you deal with such an army, and that transitions very well into a mid to late game Mutalisk strategy (i.e. Roaches with speed and burrowed movement, into Mutas). Like I said, this would be much more effective if you figured out the timings yourself. I like that you like Mutas. US server Zerg players have don't have enough Muta users, whereas Asia servers have an abundance of them (I would know, I've played on both a lot...kinda curious as to what EU servers are like). | ||
|
Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On July 17 2010 23:22 cr4ckshot wrote: This is just my opinion but I don't find mutalisks viable at all in any matchup. Against Terran, turrets and thors shut down any harassment. You may kill a depot or 3-4 scvs but you invented in 600-700 minerals/gas! It's not even worth the investment. Plus mutalisks don't even contribute to the main Zerg army because they get torn by stimmed marines. Against Protoss, once he sends an observer to scout your early spire, he will either go blinked stalkers with guardian shield or mass phoenixes (no micro required lol). If he goes the phoenix route, say bye to your mutalisks AND overlords. Against Zerg, one fungal growth is all it takes to shut down mass mutalisks. There are just so many better options to go as Zerg. Yes, that means Zerg lacks unit diversity but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Actually you bring up every point why I make mutalisks. Mutas are not the end of the game most of the time, but they force the enemy into 1-2 unit options. Make 4-5 mutas early against terran (always with speedlings baneling support) and you will annihilate tanks and marauders once the banelings hit the marines. You then force him to spend 400+minerals on turrets and either get thors or marines or maybe mass vikings. All this for the cost of a few mutas (that will probably also kill some depots and scvs as you mentionned, as well as force another bunch of towers at expands and shut down the option of flying to islands). Against Protoss you have the same 4-6 mutas to harass, making a few more will shutdown the 4 gate push (note that mutas destroy stalkers at around even numbers and then proceed to eat up all those free zealots, just make sure to focus fire guardian shields). You then force him to either mass stalkers or go phoenixes, both of which are shut down by hydras (which you transition into). And now, if he goes for colossi you have the spire up already. Also you can harass all game with just 6 mutas, if you force 4 cannons in each mineral line the mutas have already payed for themselves, not to mention all the other damage they do. Oh and edit, if phoenixes pop you can also just add 2-3 corruptors and then they are completely done. Effectively at that point he has a useless stargate or two and very few solutions except mass cannons and stalkers. Against Zerg is the most awkward because of how hard they get countered by hydra and zerg can easily have 2 queens per hatch without handicapping themselves (unlike toss or terran turrets). Then again we all know the power of the speedlings/baneling in zerg and mutas are a much easier transition than hydras (because you get mineral starved on hydra ling). I still go muta frequently and win with them (not only them, usually just as harass while the hydra/roach transition happens). They do kill overlords very nicely and the opposing Zerg will hate playing in the dark. If you force corruptors your hydras will be devastating and if he goes hydra you should be about evenly matched except you have map control. Note that I don't advocate mass muta running at infestors, but keeping map control ealy is nice (and that early if he goes for infestors he wil have a problem because they only have 1 fungal in them (if that)). | ||
|
Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On July 17 2010 23:37 Kiburn wrote: What I would like to see, and it would be better if you figured it out on your own, is a early game strategy that'll let you deal with such an army, and that transitions very well into a mid to late game Mutalisk strategy (i.e. Roaches with speed and burrowed movement, into Mutas). Like I said, this would be much more effective if you figured out the timings yourself. 2 base (14 pool 16 hatch) get both queens and the overlord for 26 as normal as well as a few lings (stops bunker rushes and reapers). From there extractor (I actually drop 2 and drone hard) first 100 gas is the lair, second 100 is speedling, next 50 is baneling nest. As lair pops get spire and burrow (in either order depending on scouting, burrow if marines, spire if marauder or banshee or hellion). The burrow allows packs of 3 banelings at key spots (in front of entrance, just outside range of hatchery, xel naga towers can be fun too). When the marines run over, kill 15 of them (I have many replays to support this ... it's so much fun). Note that you don't want them right at the top of the ramp as the Terran will scan there, put them a little further out. Mutas tend to pop right in time to finish the marine/marauder army (note you can always switch from droning hard to a ton of speedlings on 2 hatch). At this point you have a slight army advantage (though not enough to attack head on), and map control. Mutas can delay/annoy/destroy his natural (with speedling/baneling help if needed) you have a good econ, can get a 3rd expand or transition into whatever you like. Edit: If you get there in time, ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS burrow a zergling at the natural. A scan for a zergling is a nice trade. And of course you can harass the main with mutas while lings hit natural. | ||
|
AssuredVacancy
United States1167 Posts
On July 17 2010 23:41 Sixes wrote: Actually you bring up every point why I make mutalisks. Mutas are not the end of the game most of the time, but they force the enemy into 1-2 unit options. Make 4-5 mutas early against terran (always with speedlings baneling support) and you will annihilate tanks and marauders once the banelings hit the marines. You then force him to spend 400+minerals on turrets and either get thors or marines or maybe mass vikings. All this for the cost of a few mutas (that will probably also kill some depots and scvs as you mentionned, as well as force another bunch of towers at expands and shut down the option of flying to islands). Against Protoss you have the same 4-6 mutas to harass, making a few more will shutdown the 4 gate push (note that mutas destroy stalkers at around even numbers and then proceed to eat up all those free zealots, just make sure to focus fire guardian shields). You then force him to either mass stalkers or go phoenixes, both of which are shut down by hydras (which you transition into). And now, if he goes for colossi you have the spire up already. Also you can harass all game with just 6 mutas, if you force 4 cannons in each mineral line the mutas have already payed for themselves, not to mention all the other damage they do. Oh and edit, if phoenixes pop you can also just add 2-3 corruptors and then they are completely done. Effectively at that point he has a useless stargate or two and very few solutions except mass cannons and stalkers. Against Zerg is the most awkward because of how hard they get countered by hydra and zerg can easily have 2 queens per hatch without handicapping themselves (unlike toss or terran turrets). Then again we all know the power of the speedlings/baneling in zerg and mutas are a much easier transition than hydras (because you get mineral starved on hydra ling). I still go muta frequently and win with them (not only them, usually just as harass while the hydra/roach transition happens). They do kill overlords very nicely and the opposing Zerg will hate playing in the dark. If you force corruptors your hydras will be devastating and if he goes hydra you should be about evenly matched except you have map control. Note that I don't advocate mass muta running at infestors, but keeping map control ealy is nice (and that early if he goes for infestors he wil have a problem because they only have 1 fungal in them (if that)). Against terran 4 turrets is nothing if it could fend off 400/400 -> 600/600 worth of mutas. 4-6 mutas have pitiful DPS, most of the the terran could just push in with his marauders and tanks and kill pretty much everything in your base while still tanking your muta hits. Against protoss mutas is only good if you catch them off guard. 4-6 mutas is easily fended off by 1 sentry + 4 stalkers. Their 4 gate push(if there is one) can easily kill those mutas with ease, then proceed to kill your base because you won't have any real units because you've invested 600/600->800/800 in tech/mutas. | ||
|
rauk
United States2228 Posts
A) make a ton of marines (banelings = lol) B) make a ton of turrets C) make thors D) make vikings making vikings is the weakest choice. the most common i've seen is A&C, or A&B. without turrets, you can just poke around their base picking off stray scvs, or marines that are by themselves. you can't just think of making mutas as a purely resource investment versus theirs. mutas forces T to stay in his base. if he tries to move out, you can kill all his scvs. if he builds turrets, you've forced him to spend his money on something other than his army, which delays his push, giving you more time to expand/power/tech. if he makes thors, he can drive your mutas off easily, but he can't actually leave his base with his thor until he at least has a second thor to stay behind and defend. i think it's really important to see muta investment as essentially extra time. you're not trying to kill them. if you kill 10 scvs, that's great, but that's just an extra bonus. just making them stay in their base for another minute or two, or making them spend more on defense and less on their army, is easily worth the investment of 6 measly mutas. no other zerg unit has the mobility to restrict terran to their base while you take map control. | ||
|
cr4ckshot
United States291 Posts
On July 18 2010 00:35 rauk wrote: say T originally planned to go bio. by making mutas you force him to do one of the following four things in combination: A) make a ton of marines (banelings = lol) B) make a ton of turrets C) make thors D) make vikings making vikings is the weakest choice. the most common i've seen is A&C, or A&B. without turrets, you can just poke around their base picking off stray scvs, or marines that are by themselves. you can't just think of making mutas as a purely resource investment versus theirs. mutas forces T to stay in his base. if he tries to move out, you can kill all his scvs. if he builds turrets, you've forced him to spend his money on something other than his army, which delays his push, giving you more time to expand/power/tech. if he makes thors, he can drive your mutas off easily, but he can't actually leave his base with his thor until he at least has a second thor to stay behind and defend. i think it's really important to see muta investment as essentially extra time. you're not trying to kill them. if you kill 10 scvs, that's great, but that's just an extra bonus. just making them stay in their base for another minute or two, or making them spend more on defense and less on their army, is easily worth the investment of 6 measly mutas. no other zerg unit has the mobility to restrict terran to their base while you take map control. But the thing is, the proper response to both bio+tank and mech is burrow-move roaches/hydras/infestor. 1 base muta obviously delays your normal fast expand (poor economy) and 2 base muta is such a delayed harassment. From my experience, roach/hydra/infestor will let you get your 3rd base even safer than going muta/baneling. Any competent Terran can just stim their marines and run behind their tanks that splash banelings to pieces. | ||
|
rauk
United States2228 Posts
On July 18 2010 03:09 cr4ckshot wrote: But the thing is, the proper response to both bio+tank and mech is burrow-move roaches/hydras/infestor. 1 base muta obviously delays your normal fast expand (poor economy) and 2 base muta is such a delayed harassment. From my experience, roach/hydra/infestor will let you get your 3rd base even safer than going muta/baneling. Any competent Terran can just stim their marines and run behind their tanks that splash banelings to pieces. idk i avoid hydras in zvt like the plague. sure 2 base muta is a little delayed compared to 1 hat muta, but i've had a lot of success dealing with a premuta 1 base bio-tank push with only roach/ling, and if they expanded off say 1 rax bunker cc, then it's no problem at all. idk about mech though, i used to play only 1hat muta zvt which felt pretty decent to me vs mech, but i haven't played aggressive mech with 2 hat muta yet. | ||
|
gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On July 17 2010 23:22 cr4ckshot wrote: Against Terran, turrets and thors shut down any harassment. You may kill a depot or 3-4 scvs but you invented in 600-700 minerals/gas! It's not even worth the investment. Plus mutalisks don't even contribute to the main Zerg army because they get torn by stimmed marines. If there are no mutas, no turrets need to be built. That's a plus for me as a terran. | ||
|
agleed.agleed
Germany110 Posts
| ||
|
EssayReader
Korea (South)127 Posts
Just my 0.02$ | ||
|
Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
You should open 14/15 pool 16/17 hatch. Not discounting a few scouting lings and a couple crawlers as needed make pure drones and queens, naturally. Your 2nd queen should start at 24 supply or so. Make 2 gasses at this time. At 100 gas get lair. If you think there's early aggression to deal with either get ling speed first (if it's a map like DO where you can't really use mass crawlers) or up to 5+ crawlers. If you suspect something like banshees or voidrays go ahead and get an evo chamber and 1-2 more queens. When lair pops start your spire. Get ovie speed if you want, but that's 1 less muta you'll have. Add your 3rd and 4th gas at your natural. Spire shall now finish and you should have around 8 mutas making. You also have excellent eco and can lay down a 3rd immediately with extra minerals. | ||
|
DarthLeader
Canada123 Posts
| ||
|
Balor
United States147 Posts
On July 17 2010 23:34 Noocta wrote: Muta force terran to get more thors instead of tanks, so it can't be bad.. It is bad. Apparently Blizzard diddnt think the thor being anti air was enough, So they added an anti ground attack. You need at least 1.5-2x the resource cost of the thor blob to beat it, and even then its not that efficient. By thor blob I mean thors + anything. | ||
|
BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Just don't go for mass mutas, a competent player will get the proper counter and your mutas will basically be useless. Use just enough to force your opponent to get some counter-units, and to make additional turrets/cannons; this gives you map control while you take your 3rd (VERY similar to brood war). I usually make 8-12 then switch to something else. As for a good build order, I usually do: -any FE opening will work (make sure it's matchup & map appropriate i.e. don't 14hatch on steppes LOL) -1st 100 gas on zergling speed -2nd 100 gas on lair -get enough zerglings to harass/defend/scout/get towers/bust rocks, rest is drones -get 3 spine crawlers at nat -immediately get your 2nd, 3rd, & 4th gas simultaneously, put 3 drones on all of them as soon as they're done -spire immediately once lair finishes -more drones, but watch for an attack, if he attacks get more zerglings/spine crawlers -8+ mutas once spire finishes | ||
|
rockon1215
United States612 Posts
It also forces the opponent to get stalkers and you will be building zerglings anyway due to the mineral buildup, so this works in your favor. A control group of mutas roaming the map also gives you map control and shuts down expansion opportunities. It can also force the opponent to waste money on cannons. Phoenix micro has to be perfect if the protoss has any chance of killing the mutas with those. And no one has perfect micro. A large clump of +1 attack mutas is deadly Upgrades for mutas and lings also nicely leads into a broodlord transition. Of course, this is if you can hold of a 4 warpgate push. Which I still can't without luck  | ||
|
aznhockeyboy16
United States558 Posts
| ||
|
Whole
United States6046 Posts
On July 18 2010 03:09 cr4ckshot wrote: 1 base muta obviously delays your normal fast expand (poor economy) I don't know why people say  1 Base Muta (vs. Terran) gives bad economy. You pump drones and all you get in the BO is 5 Mutalisk and 6 Speedlings. You also get an expand at 32 which is pretty fast. It is a proactive economic play instead of reactionary. You also only get 5 Mutalisks instead of 6 because 5 Mutas one shot workers I believe.So I would do this build versus Terran at least because it is very early harassment and still economic. It forces your opponent to get Marines, Thors, and Turrets. So you can follow up with Roaches. If you push with a significant amount of Roaches while getting a third up, you can win the game. | ||
|
theBullFrog
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
Muta's are a great unit to control the map with and put fear into your opponent. If you do it correctly your Muta harass will kill off a couple probes and make them build more static defenses. Getting ur Muta's up is the first step in getting ur third and is a powerful tool in ur arsenal. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Calm Dota 2 5073Rain  2839Bisu 2629Horang2 2390Jaedong 2156Flash  1575Mini 725EffOrt 519Stork 473ZerO 456[ Show more ] League of Legends Counter-Strike Heroes of the Storm Other Games B2W.Neo1350 hiko805 crisheroes371 DeMusliM320 Lowko319 FrodaN242 Mew2King131 SortOf70 QueenE49 Trikslyr23 ZerO(Twitch)16 |
|
PiGosaur Monday
LiuLi Cup
Replay Cast
The PondCast
RSL Revival
Maru vs SHIN
MaNa vs MaxPax
Maestros of the Game
OSC
MaNa vs SHIN
SKillous vs ShoWTimE
Bunny vs TBD
Cham vs TBD
RSL Revival
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
Maestros of the Game
BSL Team Wars
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
