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PVT is one of my toughest matchups, but i've made a ton of progress after switching to a void ray harass. Trying to fight a bio ball head on is just near impossible if they micro properly.. As mentioned several times in this thread and by day[9] bringing the void ray into their base totally throws them off..
I wall off my front like I would vs zerg (this hasn't cost me yet as most of the battles are at their base) and put a zealot and stalker in the entrance. Once their scout is dead I build a starport and then a VR (i usually only have 1 gateway at this point.. so it's pretty fast). Chrono boost out a VR. As it's building spend extra minerals on zealots / stalkers but don't halt VR production.. As the second VR is building I send my army (which is smaller than their ground army by this point). As the second VR is built I send them behind their mineral line.
This is the part where micro is extremely important.. since trying this strat I'm about 7-1 with it. I take my smaller ground army and poke up and their wall and harass.. I dont even focus on killing necessarily just making my presence known. They'll see my smaller army and generally think they have me beat and try to engage. At that second I bring in my two vrs at their mineral line and shift attack their workers (seems to work a lot better than just 1a ing them in).. At this point they try to engage my ground army that I micro away from the damage, as they retreat back to their minerals I snipe them with the stalkers..
Now I havnt perfected this by any means.. I usually have an abundance of resources (700 or 800) due to the micro but if done properly it's gg. Try not to lose your ground army and DO NOT lose your VRs.. the threat of VR's is far greater than the actual damage you can cause once they know they're there. They have to build turrets.. more marines.. basically their plan is fubar. My only lose came to a cloaked banshee and all all marines on Kulas Ravine.. Not sure how I could have done that one differently.
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My problem is HT's getting EMP'ed, emp is a million times easier to use compared to feedback and has longer range than storm, even using S-shift-queing follow on zlots from different directions(so the ht's are all spread out when going for storm, and stop moving after they cast it) more than 3/4 get emp'ed in the face before casting, and stimmed mmmg balls dont really take much damage from 2-3 storms either way, what do you do in this case?
Its all situational right - but you could try spreading them out more. If that doesn't work you could fall back and warp more in. You could put proxy pylons around so you can warp a bunch in during combat, or harass the MMM+ghost ball as it is moving around with random templars.
emp isn't as easy to use as you think it is. It has more potential than feedback does in the hands of a great player, but during battle, with lag, and templars spread out everywhere, charging zealots, maybe some blinkign stalkers and other crazy micro, another templar or 2 kept behind the army in reserve, it just has never been a problem for me to get those storms off.
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Protoss imo should be using their early game power more to get a early expand. Terran bio is very strong against protoss but it needs a fair number of upgrades and complementary units before it gets so strong.
Early immortals are still rediculously strong against terran but not nearly used enough in my opinion, for some reason people like stalkers more whereas the immortal is just better in combat but slower and unable to hit air. Fast immortals require ghosts to counter which is difficult for terran especially if you abuse the shield regeneration early on. That temporarily advantage protoss has is best used to expo imo as pushing a terran is impossible because of their wall.
Also lategame colossi are a better choice then HT imo because they are far less effected by good micro from the terran. HT work wonderful against lower level terran but are very hard to get working if the T is good with stimkiting and EMP, whereas colossi can´t be kited and can be protected fairly well with some stalkers.
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On July 15 2010 06:26 Markwerf wrote:
Protoss imo should be using their early game power more to get a early expand. Terran bio is very strong against protoss but it needs a fair number of upgrades and complementary units before it gets so strong.
Early immortals are still rediculously strong against terran but not nearly used enough in my opinion, for some reason people like stalkers more whereas the immortal is just better in combat but slower and unable to hit air. Fast immortals require ghosts to counter which is difficult for terran especially if you abuse the shield regeneration early on. That temporarily advantage protoss has is best used to expo imo as pushing a terran is impossible because of their wall.
Also lategame colossi are a better choice then HT imo because they are far less effected by good micro from the terran. HT work wonderful against lower level terran but are very hard to get working if the T is good with stimkiting and EMP, whereas colossi can´t be kited and can be protected fairly well with some stalkers.
Yeah, this probably just comes down to preference. I prefer to have a very mobile army, map control, etc. as opposed to the solid slow army. It could be an interesting idea to go fast stalker pressure, and then instead of getting a void ray get that immortal out there early with maybe an observer to scout the ramp...that seems like it takes a long time though and 7 stalkers + 2 immortal + obs doesn't seem as strong as 7 stalker + 2 void rays for pressuring a ramp and harassing. But it does give you the advantage of an easy transition into colossus or warp prisms.
Don't mislead yourself into thinking that good T's can cancel out storm. Watch the latest day9 daily from last night, , whitera vs. TLO (day9daily 154 i believe? Or just dl replays from whitera.com and get them several days before day9 does his commentary). Whitera uses templars so effectively against MMM+ghost and tank, and uses them to harass.
You can say, "well thats white-ra, hes a pro which is why his storms hit". But it illustrates how even as the skill level goes up for both P and T, storm can still pwn. And white-ra always plays in major lag, so those storms could be even more effective 
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Here goes first post.
I will not get into using a specific spell or counter. I find this near useless information. Rather, I offer a complete dimension that Protoss players should be incorporating much more often.
Protoss' primary advantage over the other races, contrary to SC1, is their mobility and harassment. I can say the vast majority of my games (90%) have been won largely on capitalizing on Protoss' mobility.
My solution relies on Robo play. Since this facility produces the Immortal and the Collosus and Observers (all essential to any proper PvT play), I will focus on the other Robo unit left out of this party.
Warp Prism
Probably the most underutilized unit in the game. No excuse not to get them (ESPECIALLY Vs. Terran - most likely you will already be going for Collosi or Immortals or both - they fit right into the flow of the build anyway).
Only cost Minerals - will not get in the way of your other power units aside from the time they occupy the Robo queue.
Distance matters not - warp in + flying. You can get to enemies base years before he reaches yours on the ground. Launch warp in/drop while he is on his way to your base and you force him to make a decision - something has to die (either his attack or his base). This is especially useful in this situation - he has tanks and bio-ball - he will be rather immobile, unless he is willing to separate his bio/meds from his tanks.
Look at your replays - is there ever a point where it would have been great to have a proxylon somewhere on the map? Well guess what? This unit IS a pylon that flies and can deploy anywhere, AND can carry a few non-gateway units (2 Immortals or 1 Collosus) to take care of the troublesome units Vs. gateway units (tanks and/or mass bio). Never underestimate the power of being able to call in units anywhere. Read that again.
Observers are KEY in using Warp Prisms - they are so fragile that it is imperative that you scout out routes for your Prisms to move through safely. Also, you will need Observers to know when he is pushing, and you need to know when he is pushing so you can know when to send the Prisms to force him to choose. Since we are capitalizing on our advantage (mobility) coupled with his disadvantage (immobility), we need to know where he is at at all times - both the advantage and disadvantage in this case are revealed through map vigilance.
I did not go specifically into what to hit with your Prism force or what to do after he "chooses," this is not my job. Once you are given the opportunity of having him vulnerable, you should know what to do given the situation in the game. There is no denying that the Prism will give you extreme mobility - no matter what unit composition, map, or even matchup.
To sum up, the Warp Prism adds so much and takes away so little - if you are not incorporating these, you are forfeiting a monumental advantage.
Good luck!
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On July 15 2010 06:42 ergoego wrote:
Warp Prism
Probably the most underutilized unit in the game. No excuse not to get them
+1
Warp Prisms are great in the mid game, especially on maps where you can abuse high ground near an enemies minerals.
Or if you have trouble with ghosts emp'ing your templars, you can always keep templars inside the warp prism so they cannot be targetted, or warp them after the emp's go off.
Edit: Also great in the late game, of course.
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I have to say thats a pretty baller first post.
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Alright, I managed to sneak in a couple games today - one of them was PvT.
http://www.mediafire.com/?cfmy0jyzmijjayd
This one the guy over-committed to anti-stalker after the immediate push. You see me do some awkward fast stalker since he is actually random, and I altered my hard economy build to fast stalker when I scouted him. You also have the delight of watching my fail stalker micro, once again proving that it doesn't matter what division you're in - you can beat diamond T with this build.
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Someone mentioned this briefly earlier in the thread, but to everyone worried about ghost emp HT, you'll probably have sentries vs T, so just hallucinate some HT and keep them towards the front of your army (or heck, keep them completely to the side, make it look like you're trying to hide them. Make them blow their emp on the fakes, then hit them with the real thing.
Actually, this works if you're not even going HT but just want to protect your sentries from emp.
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On July 15 2010 21:46 Aeronor wrote:
Someone mentioned this briefly earlier in the thread, but to everyone worried about ghost emp HT, you'll probably have sentries vs T, so just hallucinate some HT and keep them towards the front of your army (or heck, keep them completely to the side, make it look like you're trying to hide them. Make them blow their emp on the fakes, then hit them with the real thing.
Actually, this works if you're not even going HT but just want to protect your sentries from emp.
this is actually something I haven't tried yet, gonna try it out and I'll come back with some results and hopefully replays.
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Hallucinate is one of the most underused tactics used in the game imo. It's really annoying to deal with and vs Terran it's even better since they'll blow their EMPs on the wrong units.
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Unless they build a single Raven which most good Terran do since they are so good vs stalkres, in which case Hallucinate doesn't do much but let you scout.
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Hello ^_^ New guy here.
ZvT
I noticed in the patch notes of patch 17
that the Thor's 250mm strike canon do not damage hidden enemies
and considering that the Zerg Ultralisk is immune to being stunned
if microed properly, the Ultralisk can actually burrow while being bombarded by the 250mm strike cannon
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On July 16 2010 00:38 omnimon3000 wrote:
Hello ^_^ New guy here.
ZvT
I noticed in the patch notes of patch 17
that the Thor's 250mm strike canon do not damage hidden enemies
and considering that the Zerg Ultralisk is immune to being stunned
if microed properly, the Ultralisk can actually burrow while being bombarded by the 250mm strike cannon
Hey new guy, different topics have different titles in order to distinguish what the thread is about. This is a thread about tips for Protoss versus Terran.
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I'm at ~550 diamond right now, and I tried out stalkers into void ray into blink for the first time yesterday vs a FE T, and it worked brilliantly. I'd used a stalker-void ray opening vs T a lot in Phase 1, and that used to result in easy wins until Terrans figured out how to build marines and the void ray's range was nerfed. Once they did work that out, however, the void ray seemed like an expensive clunker that would be completely shut down by 4 marines. Blink, it turns out, is a great transition for this opening, however, because it really extends the use of the void ray. Obviously, the void ray is great for providing vision to blink up cliffs, but it's also great to draw your opponent's focus away from where you'll blink in to attack. The blink transition also sets you up perfectly to get psi storm and a couple HT's just in time for when the T can think about pushing out. When I watched the replay, by the time he was pushing out, I had chargelots and 2 storms, was ahead by 15 food, had about 10 more workers, and the Units Lost tab showed him as having lost about 700 resources to my 50 (only unit I lost was my scouting probe).
The only thing that I'll add to Gnial's tips is that your attack will be very gas-heavy. Massing stalkers alone on one base can keep your gas pretty low, and when you add in the gas-heavy starport, void ray, twilight council and blink research, you're going to wind up with a smaller mass of stalkers and a bunch of extra minerals. My advice would be that if your opponent is not looking to be aggressive with early bio, extend your stay on 2 gateways for stalkers, and use the extra minerals for an expansion at around 6 minutes game time. If you see that early tech lab indicating bio aggression, get your third gateway before your expansion, and use the minerals for defensive zealots. Remember, zealots are too immobile to be useful offensively, so only build them in the early game if you need defense.
Also, I think this opening might be somewhat weak against an early marine-tank push that hits before siege mode. Terrans never seem to do this, but I think it would be quite strong against stalker-void ray.
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As a primarily meching Terran, I have to say that if the Terran is going mech without Bio, you should just get 4 gates and smash. You should be able to just waltz in and crush everything. If instead there's 2 rax 1 fac, you will need to be a little more judicious. Robotech will help here. But whatever you do, you have to get in before there's too many tanks. Once there's 10 tanks, or 6-8+EMP, you're SOL. The good news is, that won't happen for a good long while unless you let the Terran expand.
Oh, and if the terran does get to 10 tanks, your best bets are either Void Rays (if no bio) or Phoenix lift off (if with bio).
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On July 16 2010 20:45 kcdc wrote:
I'm at ~550 diamond right now, and I tried out stalkers into void ray into blink for the first time yesterday vs a FE T, and it worked brilliantly. I'd used a stalker-void ray opening vs T a lot in Phase 1, and that used to result in easy wins until Terrans figured out how to build marines and the void ray's range was nerfed. Once they did work that out, however, the void ray seemed like an expensive clunker that would be completely shut down by 4 marines. Blink, it turns out, is a great transition for this opening, however, because it really extends the use of the void ray. Obviously, the void ray is great for providing vision to blink up cliffs, but it's also great to draw your opponent's focus away from where you'll blink in to attack. The blink transition also sets you up perfectly to get psi storm and a couple HT's just in time for when the T can think about pushing out. When I watched the replay, by the time he was pushing out, I had chargelots and 2 storms, was ahead by 15 food, had about 10 more workers, and the Units Lost tab showed him as having lost about 700 resources to my 50 (only unit I lost was my scouting probe).
The only thing that I'll add to Gnial's tips is that your attack will be very gas-heavy. Massing stalkers alone on one base can keep your gas pretty low, and when you add in the gas-heavy starport, void ray, twilight council and blink research, you're going to wind up with a smaller mass of stalkers and a bunch of extra minerals. My advice would be that if your opponent is not looking to be aggressive with early bio, extend your stay on 2 gateways for stalkers, and use the extra minerals for an expansion at around 6 minutes game time. If you see that early tech lab indicating bio aggression, get your third gateway before your expansion, and use the minerals for defensive zealots. Remember, zealots are too immobile to be useful offensively, so only build them in the early game if you need defense.
Also, I think this opening might be somewhat weak against an early marine-tank push that hits before siege mode. Terrans never seem to do this, but I think it would be quite strong against stalker-void ray.
Yeah, I've been experimenting with different ways to spend those extra minerals effectively.
While I've seen a lot of success going with blink and getting those stalkers, I've found myself feeling in a great position when I skip blink in favor of a quick transition into zealot/templar. The void rays and initial stalkers are great for keeping the terran back in their base, and possibly winning right off the bat. However, rather than getting blink, I get charge instead. Then, by getting zealots instead of stalkers, I end up with more gas to get templars earlier, and get armor upgrades.
There is a lot of flexibility to go either way. The blink stalkers allow you to put continuous pressure on, before a simple (but delayed) transition to zealot/templar. Meanwhile, going for a faster zealot/templar/armor upgrade means that the pressure you are putting on the T is less intense, but you end up in a great position for a mid game timing push.
You can decide during the game depending on your opponents composition, mobility, etc which one feels best.
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On July 14 2010 01:52 Zanez.smarty wrote:
2. Late game MM&M. I have a very solid build against early-mid game MM&M and Ghosts. I get +1armor, Chargelots and GS Sentries. It dominates small amounts of MM&M, but Zealots cannot really break through a Terran wall, which makes it mostly a defensive build. Once it gets into the late game and the MM&M hits critical mass, Zealots are useless again. Should I switch to Stalkers to supplement my HT? Or would Stalkers get obliterated by Marauders too easily? Once they mix in a few tanks, there is almost nothing I can do to fight it.
How do you reach critical mass with bio? It has no splash. Chargelots + HT works WONDERS against bio and is way more costefficient than the bio army. Same thing goes for Colossuses and gateway compositions, extremly potent and very cost efficient vs bio.
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EPT
