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+1 armor on Chargelots under GS absolutely destroy early Marauder/Marine/Ghost pushes. As soon as the tanks come onto the field, yes, armor is totally useless, but then again, so are Chargelots at all...
I find it interesting that the only way to beat Tanks are to either kill them before they get them, or to completely avoid the army at all costs. Outmacroing the Tank army is not really an option on some maps. I have tried it. On Steppes of War, the Terran can easily defend his main and natural through one choke, giving him more than enough resources to get a massive army. That army can (if played properly) often destroy an entire 200/200 protoss ground army with very few casualties. Often, the bastard gets 10+ tanks and moves out with them in a leapfrog. You cannot assault that head on, because the tanks go so far back that you cannot blink or charge towards them to take them out. Immortals are goddam useless against tanks because they can be countered by any retarded burn victim with parkinsons. Some maps, you can take advantage of their lack of mobility, but on a map like Steppes that is pretty much impossible.
Ugh sorry, I am getting worked up, because Terran just seem absolutely ridiculous now, and I cannot see how it is possible to beat them past the early game.
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I'm utterly convinced bio is getting nerfed now.
4 fucking times in a row. Constant Void Ray pressure while trying to build up Chargelots and HTs. 4 times getting fucking steamrolled when they build a few missile turrets and push out.
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On July 14 2010 12:47 Bibdy wrote:
I'm utterly convinced bio is getting nerfed now.
4 fucking times in a row. Constant Void Ray pressure while trying to build up Chargelots and HTs. 4 times getting fucking steamrolled when they build a few missile turrets and push out.
Eh? If you're really having a hard time with them pushing before you get HTs, just forcefield your ramp.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 14 2010 12:47 Bibdy wrote:
I'm utterly convinced bio is getting nerfed now.
4 fucking times in a row. Constant Void Ray pressure while trying to build up Chargelots and HTs. 4 times getting fucking steamrolled when they build a few missile turrets and push out.
Have you tried getting cannons (at your nat, ofc) and colo instead of hts?
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On July 14 2010 12:53 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 12:47 Bibdy wrote:
I'm utterly convinced bio is getting nerfed now.
4 fucking times in a row. Constant Void Ray pressure while trying to build up Chargelots and HTs. 4 times getting fucking steamrolled when they build a few missile turrets and push out. Eh? If you're really having a hard time with them pushing before you get HTs, just forcefield your ramp.
Yeah, easy when they don't Scan the ramp and EMP all your Sentries so you can only get 15 seconds of spare time.
![[image loading]](http://maddok.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/cup-o-rage.jpg)
Edit: won my next game against a Zerg who risked a FE on Desert Oasis.
Urge to rage...lowering.
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As a Terran player, what seems to really be effective against my bio ball is chargelots supported with Collossi. The chargelots do tons of damage and act as meatshields for the Collossi while it does tons of damage to the bioball.
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Alright, I played like, 10 PvZ's, but finally I got some PvT's. As usual, I did the stalker-void strat into zealot/templar and won all 3 of them. What is neat, is I designed the build to counter the bio-ball with ghosts. However, all these reps show the diversity it has in dealing with fast tanks, mech, 1-1-1, etc.
http://www.mediafire.com/?3zjuzmxyti2f3zn
The T does a weird build in this one...I don't know how he was in diamond, seeing as he went lots of hellions vs Protoss stalker rush. Maybe it was one of those weird matching errors where a gold gets paired against a diamond.
http://www.mediafire.com/?hmwkz3zzyuymzlm
The T does a fast reaper. I am doing an economy build, not the double stalkers. I get a bit lucky by getting the surround on the first reaper.
http://www.mediafire.com/?llytjdzvjddzjgd
This is the only one that actually made it to the mid game - but it was weird since I've never done this build vs fast banshees before. I ended up pretty far behind, but because I get armor upgrades, zealot/templar destroys his bio.
In all these replays, the enemy is going anti-stalker (a whole lot of anti ground, no anti air) so the void ray takes a much more important role than it is really supposed to. I was hoping to get a better replay for showing how effective the stalkers are in protecting the void ray against marines and vikings, but its so annoying playing 3 PvZ's in a row when you're trying to ladder a PvT. Gonna call it a night 
Edit: Look at how terrible my APM is. You don't need gosu skills to pull this off, just clear thinking.
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I'm not sure why you would go Stalkers against a bio ball, that's just asking for his Marauders to own you but if that works for you more power to ya.
Here's how the PvT dynamic generally works for me.
I mostly go chargelot/sentry/high templar against Terran and it seems to work pretty well. I throw in a couple Stalkers but only enough so that I can take some potshots while he's trying to run back for free shots.
Hallucinated phoenix are great for scouting, but if you see a Starport with a tech lab be sure to throw down a robotics and chrono an observer out.
There seems to be a timing early on where it's really iffy and the Terran player will generally push out. You have to fight what often is a close battle. Keep an eye out w/ the Xel'Naga watch tower so that you're ready for it and either forcefield to cut the army in half, or to stop Marauders from kiting your zealots endlessly. If you're lucky you'll have charge at this point, if not Forcefield is even more important.
After holding off this push I generally expand and poke to see if they have an expansion or anything like that while finishing up my templar tech, moving in to mid/late game.
Keep your templars and sentries spread out so that a single EMP doesn't finish you off. Continue Forcefielding behind their army so that they can't run back from storm/kite your zealots. And try to keep a second group of zealots to the side for flanks.
Be smart about your storms; when the ball is moving towards you, storm in front. When the ball is moving back, storm behind. If they're not moving storm right on them and FF behind to be sure they can't move out.
And don't forget about Feedback. So many Terran units have energy.
I used to have a lot of trouble playing against Terran but ever since I adopted Templar play I've found a lot more success. I've tried using Void Rays and I had some success but a bunch of marines with stim just kill a VR so damn fast. I'm going to incorporate hallucinated void rays as somebody mentioned on one of the first pages though, that sounds great.
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One thing I do not see enough vs Terran, (I am terran btw and I HATE when toss does this to me), is use Warp Prisms. While doing small fights and skirmishes or even while pushing and his attention is off. Fly in warp prisms and warp in some chargelots/stalkers and just stomp the crap out of Factories/Add-ons/SCVS/Supply Depots. This really screws the T up and it is very effective mid and late game, split up a few zlots to scvs then send the rest to production and supply. Also hiding late game void ray tech is very deadly especially on high econ.
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On July 14 2010 01:52 Zanez.smarty wrote:
Void Rays melt to as little as four Marines. I cannot keep these things alive for the life of me.
Thanks in advance.
This is not entirely true. Never underestimate the damage of even one fully charged void ray. If fully charged, it can easily handle 4 stimmed marines, and be left with a bit under 80% hp, with shields gone, but those will regen fast until he gets more marines.
So if you do get void rays, which in my experience do incredible ammounts of damage, be sure to charge them up on the enemy's refinery/barracks/ command center the moment you pop into their base, and maintain the charges, and you can destroy anything he puts in your way.
Just an example, a fully charged void ray can kill 3 vikings, it takes 3 ticks of dmg per viking, done every 0.6 sec, first tick is instant so it takes 1.2 game time seconds to kill 1 viking with 1 void ray when fully charged.
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On July 14 2010 13:43 Gnial wrote:Alright, I played like, 10 PvZ's, but finally I got some PvT's. As usual, I did the stalker-void strat into zealot/templar and won all 3 of them. What is neat, is I designed the build to counter the bio-ball with ghosts. However, all these reps show the diversity it has in dealing with fast tanks, mech, 1-1-1, etc. http://www.mediafire.com/?3zjuzmxyti2f3znThe T does a weird build in this one...I don't know how he was in diamond, seeing as he went lots of hellions vs Protoss stalker rush. Maybe it was one of those weird matching errors where a gold gets paired against a diamond. http://www.mediafire.com/?hmwkz3zzyuymzlmThe T does a fast reaper. I am doing an economy build, not the double stalkers. I get a bit lucky by getting the surround on the first reaper. http://www.mediafire.com/?llytjdzvjddzjgdThis is the only one that actually made it to the mid game - but it was weird since I've never done this build vs fast banshees before. I ended up pretty far behind, but because I get armor upgrades, zealot/templar destroys his bio. In all these replays, the enemy is going anti-stalker (a whole lot of anti ground, no anti air) so the void ray takes a much more important role than it is really supposed to. I was hoping to get a better replay for showing how effective the stalkers are in protecting the void ray against marines and vikings, but its so annoying playing 3 PvZ's in a row when you're trying to ladder a PvT. Gonna call it a night Edit: Look at how terrible my APM is. You don't need gosu skills to pull this off, just clear thinking.
A bit lucky? You got a LOT lucky. That's why I always do 10-Pylon,10-Gate and start the Core as soon as its finished (usually around 15 since I don't Chrono boost until the 11th Probe). You could have lost so godamned many Probes there if he didn't screw up with the first Reaper.
Honestly, none of those games represent the kind of Terran play I lose against. You get some easy wins every now and then, for sure and those are examples of some pretty dense decisions. I had a Terran rage at me about Void Rays when he went absolutely nothing but Marauders and one Ghost when my Void Ray arrived (and that was after 2 Gates. So, it wasn't like I was blitzing for the thing). This was back-to-back on Lost Temple, so he really should have seen it coming.
But, then the PvT on Blistering Sands, the guy had two Marines and one Marauder when my first Stalker arrived, which screwed that up, left Marauders at the front door, arrived late after I killed some SCVs with a couple of Void Rays, stalled his building Missile Turrets for quite a while by killing the SCVs building them, expanded, and it felt like I was working my way up to Chargelots and HTs quite UNcomfortably, because of the amount of attention I had to give the VRs, he eventually got a few turrets up and then the gigantic Marine/Marauder/Ghost blob charges through the front door (didn't even bother to try the rocks) before I could mass a comfortable number of HTs and Chargelots, blocked half of the choke with a Force Field, cut them in half as they tried to pass through, but still got fucking rocked by straight-up firepower thanks to Stims.
The strength of bio against Protoss is just absurd. Rarely do I cry foul about balance in discussion forums I post in, but all of these constant buffs to Terran just are NOT fitting the reality that I'm playing in. I'm literally sweating godamned buckets when I play PvT. But when I play PvZ or PvP? Its like a fucking holiday in Hawaii by comparison.
There has to be some obvious, stupid thing I'm missing right now, because PvT is either a cakewalk against some guy who does some bone-head build, or an unequivocal nightmare. There's just no middle-ground I'm seeing.
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A lot of good ideas on here.
Also don't forget about hallucination when assaulting a fortified position. Hallucinated colossi have high hit points, and can also provide sight up the cliff for stalker blink or accurate psi storm. Immortals also work as hallucination meat shields. Just send your fake group in to take the tank hits while you snipe the tanks down with the real units.
Just be wary of detectors, as they make this strategy pretty useless.
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Personally as a T player what is difficult to deal with is early pressure before I can get siege tanks. I think harassing early to prevent an expansion and then macro up and get colossis/VRs/HTs shouldn't fail very often, IMO. Has anyone experimented with hallucinations ahead of your army so the ghosts Emp them instead? might be a good idea.
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Gnials suggestions have worked for me today though I'm only a gold level player. won all day today only lost to a 1-1-1 terran and i could have won but i had some micro accidents.
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On July 15 2010 03:23 Bibdy wrote:A bit lucky? You got a LOT lucky. That's why I always do 10-Pylon,10-Gate and start the Core as soon as its finished (usually around 15 since I don't Chrono boost until the 11th Probe). You could have lost so godamned many Probes there if he didn't screw up with the first Reaper.
If you micro properly you lose like 3-4 probes max, although you're not mining for basically any of the time between the Reaper arriving and your Stalker getting out.
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On July 15 2010 03:23 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 13:43 Gnial wrote:Alright, I played like, 10 PvZ's, but finally I got some PvT's. As usual, I did the stalker-void strat into zealot/templar and won all 3 of them. What is neat, is I designed the build to counter the bio-ball with ghosts. However, all these reps show the diversity it has in dealing with fast tanks, mech, 1-1-1, etc. http://www.mediafire.com/?3zjuzmxyti2f3znThe T does a weird build in this one...I don't know how he was in diamond, seeing as he went lots of hellions vs Protoss stalker rush. Maybe it was one of those weird matching errors where a gold gets paired against a diamond. http://www.mediafire.com/?hmwkz3zzyuymzlmThe T does a fast reaper. I am doing an economy build, not the double stalkers. I get a bit lucky by getting the surround on the first reaper. http://www.mediafire.com/?llytjdzvjddzjgdThis is the only one that actually made it to the mid game - but it was weird since I've never done this build vs fast banshees before. I ended up pretty far behind, but because I get armor upgrades, zealot/templar destroys his bio. In all these replays, the enemy is going anti-stalker (a whole lot of anti ground, no anti air) so the void ray takes a much more important role than it is really supposed to. I was hoping to get a better replay for showing how effective the stalkers are in protecting the void ray against marines and vikings, but its so annoying playing 3 PvZ's in a row when you're trying to ladder a PvT. Gonna call it a night Edit: Look at how terrible my APM is. You don't need gosu skills to pull this off, just clear thinking. A bit lucky? You got a LOT lucky. That's why I always do 10-Pylon,10-Gate and start the Core as soon as its finished (usually around 15 since I don't Chrono boost until the 11th Probe). You could have lost so godamned many Probes there if he didn't screw up with the first Reaper. Honestly, none of those games represent the kind of Terran play I lose against.
Yeah, I was really disappointed with the types of games I got - but since they were all equally bad and I said I'd post, I just threw em all up. When I find some time in the next few days I'll try to throw down some more laddering games and post the replays. (work + exam friday morning...at the latest I'll be able to post replays on friday afternoon)
Before the new patch, I had 2 great replays against MM-Ghost builds with that void build, one on steppes of war and one cross positional on metalopolis. I did the exact same thing for both, and won both the exact same way against that early timed bio ghost attack.
As for that reaper being a LOT lucky, I had an 8 probe lead on him after I killed the 2nd reaper since it hurt his economy so badly to do that rush. Thats a LOT of probes he would have had to kill with that first reaper in order for the attack to have been even slightly beneficial, so like I say in the rep, at worst I would have been even and I could have carried out the stalker-void push as I had initially planned.
I mean, that was an all-in proxy reaper rush, barracks and gas before a supply depot, stopping scv production at like, 6 or 7 scvs. Also by chance I had decided to hardcore power my economy early, going really late gateway and getting that stalker about as late as possible. He had everything going in his favor, and about the best he could do is break even. The worst he could do...he did, and he auto-lost because of it. I don't think it is prudent to design your build around such an infrequent, slightly-absurd reaper rush play when the worst case scenario of such an attack is that you are about even with them afterwards.
That said, getting a faster cyber means you can put faster pressure on the T, so if you're really worried about reapers it has that flexibility. If I am going 14 gate, maybe I should consider getting a zealot out of that first gateway while the cyber core is building to give me a little bit of extra flexibility against reapers...hmm, stuff to think about 
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Well, playing against ~1000 diamond players going the 3 rax push is starting to aggrevate me more than midly, I think my win % against that is barely 30%... :/ I'm really lost against T every game, can't find any opener and followup that I can be comfortable with against 3 rax push + ghost.
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On July 15 2010 03:23 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 13:43 Gnial wrote:Alright, I played like, 10 PvZ's, but finally I got some PvT's. As usual, I did the stalker-void strat into zealot/templar and won all 3 of them. What is neat, is I designed the build to counter the bio-ball with ghosts. However, all these reps show the diversity it has in dealing with fast tanks, mech, 1-1-1, etc. http://www.mediafire.com/?3zjuzmxyti2f3znThe T does a weird build in this one...I don't know how he was in diamond, seeing as he went lots of hellions vs Protoss stalker rush. Maybe it was one of those weird matching errors where a gold gets paired against a diamond. http://www.mediafire.com/?hmwkz3zzyuymzlmThe T does a fast reaper. I am doing an economy build, not the double stalkers. I get a bit lucky by getting the surround on the first reaper. http://www.mediafire.com/?llytjdzvjddzjgdThis is the only one that actually made it to the mid game - but it was weird since I've never done this build vs fast banshees before. I ended up pretty far behind, but because I get armor upgrades, zealot/templar destroys his bio. In all these replays, the enemy is going anti-stalker (a whole lot of anti ground, no anti air) so the void ray takes a much more important role than it is really supposed to. I was hoping to get a better replay for showing how effective the stalkers are in protecting the void ray against marines and vikings, but its so annoying playing 3 PvZ's in a row when you're trying to ladder a PvT. Gonna call it a night Edit: Look at how terrible my APM is. You don't need gosu skills to pull this off, just clear thinking. A bit lucky? You got a LOT lucky. That's why I always do 10-Pylon,10-Gate and start the Core as soon as its finished (usually around 15 since I don't Chrono boost until the 11th Probe). You could have lost so godamned many Probes there if he didn't screw up with the first Reaper. Honestly, none of those games represent the kind of Terran play I lose against. You get some easy wins every now and then, for sure and those are examples of some pretty dense decisions. I had a Terran rage at me about Void Rays when he went absolutely nothing but Marauders and one Ghost when my Void Ray arrived (and that was after 2 Gates. So, it wasn't like I was blitzing for the thing). This was back-to-back on Lost Temple, so he really should have seen it coming. But, then the PvT on Blistering Sands, the guy had two Marines and one Marauder when my first Stalker arrived, which screwed that up, left Marauders at the front door, arrived late after I killed some SCVs with a couple of Void Rays, stalled his building Missile Turrets for quite a while by killing the SCVs building them, expanded, and it felt like I was working my way up to Chargelots and HTs quite UNcomfortably, because of the amount of attention I had to give the VRs, he eventually got a few turrets up and then the gigantic Marine/Marauder/Ghost blob charges through the front door (didn't even bother to try the rocks) before I could mass a comfortable number of HTs and Chargelots, blocked half of the choke with a Force Field, cut them in half as they tried to pass through, but still got fucking rocked by straight-up firepower thanks to Stims. The strength of bio against Protoss is just absurd. Rarely do I cry foul about balance in discussion forums I post in, but all of these constant buffs to Terran just are NOT fitting the reality that I'm playing in. I'm literally sweating godamned buckets when I play PvT. But when I play PvZ or PvP? Its like a fucking holiday in Hawaii by comparison. There has to be some obvious, stupid thing I'm missing right now, because PvT is either a cakewalk against some guy who does some bone-head build, or an unequivocal nightmare. There's just no middle-ground I'm seeing.
Bibdy: I am plat (working my way back into Diamond after reset) and play T and would enjoy helping you figure out how to beat bio, if you'd like. PM me if you want my name/code. I'll be on tonight at about 6:00 PDT.
And to address the question of the thread: early stalker aggression is crucial. Even if you don't commit to mass stalker, it often will force marauder, and then the void-ray (which I think should be pretty much standard vT on a lot of maps) will have a field day later on. Also, more marauder means later ghosts, which means sentries are more effective.
And for all the people saying that you can't FF your ramp because the ghost emps ALL your sentries... please please fucking have a probe hidden along the path to your base so you can get your first FF off before the bio shows up, and then run your sentries, then only send ONE to re-FF. There's no way you should be getting all of your sentries EMP'd, that's just poor control unless the ghost has 150 energy.
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On July 15 2010 05:22 Nihilnovi wrote:
Well, playing against ~1000 diamond players going the 3 rax push is starting to aggrevate me more than midly, I think my win % against that is barely 30%... :/ I'm really lost against T every game, can't find any opener and followup that I can be comfortable with against 3 rax push + ghost.
Watch the longer replay I posted (whichever one has the largest file size [edit: the 3rd one]) and you can see how effective zealot/templar is against the MMM ball once they get upgraded armor. Zealot + templar is always great to aim for in the mid game.
As for early game - experiment with stalkers. They are my favorite anti T unit by far. I'm pretty sure they can be used against most good T compositions - I use them against every T early game composition until I get charge.
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On July 15 2010 05:43 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 05:22 Nihilnovi wrote:
Well, playing against ~1000 diamond players going the 3 rax push is starting to aggrevate me more than midly, I think my win % against that is barely 30%... :/ I'm really lost against T every game, can't find any opener and followup that I can be comfortable with against 3 rax push + ghost. Watch the longer replay I posted (whichever one has the largest file size [edit: the 3rd one]) and you can see how effective zealot/templar is against the MMM ball once they get upgraded armor. Zealot + templar is always great to aim for in the mid game. As for early game - experiment with stalkers. They are my favorite anti T unit by far. I'm pretty sure they can be used against most good T compositions - I use them against every T early game composition until I get charge.
My problem is HT's getting EMP'ed, emp is a million times easier to use compared to feedback and has longer range than storm, even using S-shift-queing follow on zlots from different directions(so the ht's are all spread out when going for storm, and stop moving after they cast it) more than 3/4 get emp'ed in the face before casting, and stimmed mmmg balls dont really take much damage from 2-3 storms either way, what do you do in this case? The terrans you met in those games were god-aweful and are they kind of players I beat with my eyes closed, i.e anything would work regardless.
I mean, considering equal skill the terran will 9/10 times get emps on your ht's before you get storm on his mmmg ball @ mid-late game :S
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EPT
