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On July 14 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote:
Yup, what Gnial said. Everything I'm seeing, hearing, reading and feeling says fast Stalker harassment at the front door with Void Rays taking pot-shots at whatever they can find, keep him trapped in his base while you expand.
I'm still on the lookout for both a way to identify and counter an 8-minute 1/1/1 push with Marines, Tanks and a Raven, though. It has all of the benefits of being able to counter all Protoss timing pushes (the Tanks he was already building and a single Viking will thwart all Stalker and VR harass - so you had better have done some major damage before they get situated), while simultaneously being able to build its own utterly devastating timing push of its own.
Open 15 Nexus vs. the 1/1/1, it'll pay itself off before any push the 1/1/1 can assemble, and you can (with good micro) survive any rush that comes from their 13 Rax in response, though you'll have to pull probes. A 10-Rax will just kill you outright though unless you cancel your Nexus or scout so early that you just make a delayed gate, but you WILL end up behind.
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On July 14 2010 06:14 Kpyolysis32 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote:
Yup, what Gnial said. Everything I'm seeing, hearing, reading and feeling says fast Stalker harassment at the front door with Void Rays taking pot-shots at whatever they can find, keep him trapped in his base while you expand.
I'm still on the lookout for both a way to identify and counter an 8-minute 1/1/1 push with Marines, Tanks and a Raven, though. It has all of the benefits of being able to counter all Protoss timing pushes (the Tanks he was already building and a single Viking will thwart all Stalker and VR harass - so you had better have done some major damage before they get situated), while simultaneously being able to build its own utterly devastating timing push of its own. Open 15 Nexus vs. the 1/1/1, it'll pay itself off before any push the 1/1/1 can assemble, and you can (with good micro) survive any rush that comes from their 13 Rax in response, though you'll have to pull probes. A 10-Rax will just kill you outright though unless you cancel your Nexus or scout so early that you just make a delayed gate, but you WILL end up behind.
How am I going to identify a 1/1/1 build THAT early AND force him to commit to it? At that point he could EASILY spot the Nexus and just plop another Barracks down instead of a Factory and then walk all over me with Marine spam.
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On July 14 2010 05:47 Shifft wrote:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
save the rest of your minerals for 2 stalkers, chrono boost both and either your next probe or save it for warpgate
MAKE SURE you transfer your probes to gas right when it finishes or you'll be stuck waiting on gas for your second stalker
that's my standard pvp opener 
What i do differently, however, is making the second gate on 16, and i can always sneak in an extra probe after starting the cyber.
Also, this is the best thread ever, it's really helpful.
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On July 14 2010 05:47 Shifft wrote:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
save the rest of your minerals for 2 stalkers, chrono boost both and either your next probe or save it for warpgate
MAKE SURE you transfer your probes to gas right when it finishes or you'll be stuck waiting on gas for your second stalker
Reaper rush would have a field day with such a late stalker
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On July 14 2010 07:20 Capteone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 05:47 Shifft wrote:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 gate
15 core
16 pylon
save the rest of your minerals for 2 stalkers, chrono boost both and either your next probe or save it for warpgate
MAKE SURE you transfer your probes to gas right when it finishes or you'll be stuck waiting on gas for your second stalker Reaper rush would have a field day with such a late stalker
I'm sort of glad you brought this up since I wanted to mention just how exceptionally strong against reaper rushes this build is.
The fastest 1 reaper plays that aren't all-in are about 3:30, maybe slightly less. (not including travel time to the protoss base), and even the fast non-all-in build hurts the terran economy a bit because T has to get the gas so fast. These stalkers come out around 4:00. You only need to keep some probes alive for a few seconds longer than if you didn't get the second gateway.
Even if the terran does kill a few probes before being fended off, they are in an awkward position. Their income is slightly hurt, and they spent all that time building a reaper when they could have been building a marauder or marines. The protoss still got 2 stalkers out just as quickly. Those stalkers can get up on the terran wall or into the terran base and do serious damage.
Edit: I had said something about reaper rush being nerfed, but as you can see at this link, that has been reversed. http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&sid=5000&pageNo=2
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Heh. Reverted quite a few of the mysterious Patch 16 changes.
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But hallucinated colossi still don't dissipate force fields 
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Thx a lot for this Thread i looked everywhere to find a good thread about that... Didnt find any that didnt spam "Void ray" all over the place.
I'll try the build but... Wouldnt the terran have at least 1-2 marines + 1 marauder by the time of 4:00 ?
and 1-2 marines + 1 mara can easily kill 2 stalker...
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im really suspicious about the quality of the posts in this thread. Most of the people who actually contributing have the post count less than 100....
anyway, the way to beat T is to survive early, put him into defendsive mode while you expan and caught him offguard when he decided to move out. do something creative with the abilities of your units and avoid face to face engagement. keep up the upgrades
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On July 14 2010 08:32 Yokoblue wrote:
Thx a lot for this Thread i looked everywhere to find a good thread about that... Didnt find any that didnt spam "Void ray" all over the place.
I'll try the build but... Wouldnt the terran have at least 1-2 marines + 1 marauder by the time of 4:00 ?
and 1-2 marines + 1 mara can easily kill 2 stalker...
He MIGHT, but you'll have two Stalkers, which can take a beating while they pull off some shots and then escape when they hit 20-40 shield, regenerate, and then come back for more, while the Terran can't heal for diddly.
This early point in the game is really the only good time to abuse the shit out of the Protoss shield mechanic. Well, any kind of harassment can make use of it, but this early Stalker stuff is probably the most obvious time where it makes a significant difference.
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with just 2 stalkers, it seems like it would be really easy to die to early maurader pressure, specifically a 9 rax. also the 3:30 timing on that reaper sounds off, but hey i'm a toss player what do i know?
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On July 14 2010 08:56 fallore wrote:
with just 2 stalkers, it seems like it would be really easy to die to early maurader pressure, specifically a 9 rax. also the 3:30 timing on that reaper sounds off, but hey i'm a toss player what do i know?
Yeah, I'd like to see some build-order tester numbers to get a feel for how safe it is, especially since they reverted the Barracks and Reaper build times.
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On July 14 2010 08:32 Yokoblue wrote:
Thx a lot for this Thread i looked everywhere to find a good thread about that... Didnt find any that didnt spam "Void ray" all over the place.
I'll try the build but... Wouldnt the terran have at least 1-2 marines + 1 marauder by the time of 4:00 ?
and 1-2 marines + 1 mara can easily kill 2 stalker...
You're right, they tend to have something like that, or 5 marines, or some such thing. Or sometimes less since they try to minimize the units they make early so they can get more teching done.
The idea isn't to fight them in a battle. It is to wear them down. Protoss units can regenerate their shields - terran bio cannot until they get medivacs, which are a long way off. So you just pop up, shoot at the units, then recharge or move the shielded units to the front and the unshielded ones to the back. As newly produced stalkers arrive, you can move them straight to the front for another poke.
Thats why a bunker hard counters it however, since it can be repaired. Its still good to make them repair, and try to snipe scvs and such. But once that bunker is up, you really want to fast tech to blink and hallucinate or voidray. I'll head home now to post some replays.
On July 14 2010 08:40 NB wrote:
im really suspicious about the quality of the posts in this thread. Most of the people who actually contributing have the post count less than 100....
I was bored at work and decided to have some fun with a thread here. Gotta do your first post some time right?
I've only posted intuitive things anyways, you don't have to take my word for anything but if you are a protoss player, you'll be able to look at what is written and get a feel for what we're going for and could get some ideas on how to optimize on whats written - although personally I feel its extremely optimal for at least the first 7 or 8 minutes. (Although I could probably fit armor ugprades in here somewhere, so that the zealot/templars come out of the gate into the mid game really strong)
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Great thread gonna read up on this tomorow when i wake up, since i got problems vs terran aswell
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Inspired by whitera I use a build which I haven't lost with so far, go for a fast star gate with a sentry to ff your ramp and then only build a single void ray.
Its presence alone will cause your opponent to either build more marines or turret up, after thi get around 4 warpgates and spam zealots and upgrade charge.
As long as you keep poking in your VR (you don't have to do any damage but more is better) your opponents bio force will fall to you zealot heavy one.
Its even possible to break their ramp with brute force and still win at times. If they survive this attmept to mantain map control with VR and go zealot templar
High and dark from this anything they throw at you (without them drastically teching of which you should have taken advantage of) you can deal with, even ghosts. Just confining them and maxing with chargelots and high templars is almost an instawin
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Edit: I removed the replays I posted since they aren't compatible with the new patch. I'll go...make some new replays now I guess.
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Just try the build... against 1 comp very hard... It works... Even if he produce a lot more than a regular player... with a lot of micro you can still get the void ray in time or the HT...
I went for Ladder (Im in the 1st/3 of diamond) and went against some1 who reaper rush me... he was in my base at 3:30 Flush... killed 3-4 probe.. while i was chasing a bit... than BAM 2 stalker... then i Went in his base... 1 mara vs 2 Stalker...
Reinforcements.. 3 stalkers against 1 mara... then destroy the wall.. went for SCV and eventually won :D
So this build really work... I never won that easily against a T
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On July 14 2010 06:25 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 06:14 Kpyolysis32 wrote:On July 14 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote:
Yup, what Gnial said. Everything I'm seeing, hearing, reading and feeling says fast Stalker harassment at the front door with Void Rays taking pot-shots at whatever they can find, keep him trapped in his base while you expand.
I'm still on the lookout for both a way to identify and counter an 8-minute 1/1/1 push with Marines, Tanks and a Raven, though. It has all of the benefits of being able to counter all Protoss timing pushes (the Tanks he was already building and a single Viking will thwart all Stalker and VR harass - so you had better have done some major damage before they get situated), while simultaneously being able to build its own utterly devastating timing push of its own. Open 15 Nexus vs. the 1/1/1, it'll pay itself off before any push the 1/1/1 can assemble, and you can (with good micro) survive any rush that comes from their 13 Rax in response, though you'll have to pull probes. A 10-Rax will just kill you outright though unless you cancel your Nexus or scout so early that you just make a delayed gate, but you WILL end up behind. How am I going to identify a 1/1/1 build THAT early AND force him to commit to it? At that point he could EASILY spot the Nexus and just plop another Barracks down instead of a Factory and then walk all over me with Marine spam.
What I love, as a Terran player, is that the only "good" way to handle 1/1/1 for Protoss, is to start committing to FE play, which opens up my options such a large amount. 1 base protoss is just so strong, it tunnels Terran into only one or two different options, none of which promote expansion taking. Although marine spam should never beat protoss outright- there needs to be concussive marauder or tank to deal with stalker- it feels good to have a build that moves Protoss off of one base.
There shouldn't be any way to differentiate between 1/1/1 and something else that early, but you can feel out 1/1/1 well before the starport if you can catch the second refinery placement on Terran's 15-17 food, which is no tech lab rax, before the second depot, only one marine trained and rarely trained completely before the refinery is started. There's no way a second gas that early is going to be an expand or an aggressive bio build.
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On July 14 2010 01:52 Zanez.smarty wrote:
I am a diamond Protoss player. I am fairly confident with my play against Protoss and Zerg, but Terran is by far my worst match up. I must have something like a 25% win rate against them... it's not funny any more. I have struggled against them since the beginning, just assuming that everyone was having the same trouble as I was, but apparently that is not true. I have lately been watching streams, reading strategies, watching all my replays, etc etc, but there are still aspects I cannot seem to manage. I was hoping to get some advice from Terran players themselves. Some Protoss somewhere seem to be beating Terran, so when you Terrans get beat, what is it that beats you?
1. Firstly, when do I expand? I have gotten into the habit of keeping a close eye on my Protoss opponents' natural, and take action when they expand. Terran players, when are Protoss safe to expand against you, and when is it a good idea to stay on one base?
2. Late game MM&M. I have a very solid build against early-mid game MM&M and Ghosts. I get +1armor, Chargelots and GS Sentries. It dominates small amounts of MM&M, but Zealots cannot really break through a Terran wall, which makes it mostly a defensive build. Once it gets into the late game and the MM&M hits critical mass, Zealots are useless again. Should I switch to Stalkers to supplement my HT? Or would Stalkers get obliterated by Marauders too easily? Once they mix in a few tanks, there is almost nothing I can do to fight it.
3. Tanks. Ugh, total nightmare here. The Terran player sits in his main/natural and holds it indefinitely with Tanks and Marines. I cannot assault a base with Tanks, because he spreads out his Tanks and uses Marines with Stim to take out Immortals and Void Rays. He moves out when he has about 10+ tanks, and leapfrogs them towards my base. On a map like Desert Oasis, I have taken to Blinking into his base and forcing him to spread out his troops, and stay defending until he is out of resources. But on a map like Steppes of War, he defends his natural, and there is no way into his main. I have tried out-expanding him, but he moves out relatively quickly and then I am stuck with very few troops. HT can't get near enough to storm, and his Marines stick close enough to his tanks to prevent Cols from hitting them. If I cannot attack his base, and I cannot attack his army, how am I supposed to manage? How do Protoss players beat this push and build up? He has a reactor and a wall-off So I can't assault the main early. He gets a tank very quickly, so any assault is cleared easily. He leapfrogs his assault pretty slowly, so there is never a time when his tanks are unseiged, clumped, or particularly vulnerable. Any tips for this situation?
4. Void Rays. I read fairly often that I should get Void Rays to force the Terran to build a good amount of Marines, but with an early stim upgrade, Void Rays melt to as little as four Marines. I cannot keep these things alive for the life of me.
Any help I can get from Terran players would help IMMENSELY. Any answers to these questions? Any other hints or tips for beating Terran?
Thanks in advance.
I was top 10 diamond toss before patch and now I'm about to get back to diamond again, I've been busy with summerschool so I haven't played much.
Expanding is too variable for me to say, but if you see marines + sieged tanks then expand once, and if he is meching take the whole map. I play stop him from getting his third and let him take his natural on most maps. Basically don't break tank lines, take the whole map and outmacro him. Chargelots, Blinkers, templar, a few immortals and if he has no ravens send DTs. DTs sent one at a time is really irritating and requires a scan for each. If he has no maruaders you can get away from him and use the same DT.
Getting collosi and/or HTs should be good enough to kill bio. If he has marauders and tanks and medivacs he probably doesn't have many vikings (or banshees). If he only has a few tanks immortals/collosi are still effective although I prefer collo b/c emp destroys immortals.
Charelots from proxy pylons on multiple ends along with using chargelots to go into his base when he has moved far enough out is viable. Try to spread your chargelots a bit, and put them on different tanks so he takes a lot of friendly fire and your zealots take less splash. I also wouldn't bother with armor upgrades, attack seems way more important and not like armor helps vs tanks.
Void Rays get raped by vikings, marines, missile turrets and generally I wouldn't invest in them until late game if that, and as support. They are only good against BCs really, or if you can charge on rocks/buildings before you get in range of his defense. With viking range and speed I wouldn't even bother now, not counting range nerf on void ray.
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On July 14 2010 11:08 Mnijykmirl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 06:25 Bibdy wrote:On July 14 2010 06:14 Kpyolysis32 wrote:On July 14 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote:
Yup, what Gnial said. Everything I'm seeing, hearing, reading and feeling says fast Stalker harassment at the front door with Void Rays taking pot-shots at whatever they can find, keep him trapped in his base while you expand.
I'm still on the lookout for both a way to identify and counter an 8-minute 1/1/1 push with Marines, Tanks and a Raven, though. It has all of the benefits of being able to counter all Protoss timing pushes (the Tanks he was already building and a single Viking will thwart all Stalker and VR harass - so you had better have done some major damage before they get situated), while simultaneously being able to build its own utterly devastating timing push of its own. Open 15 Nexus vs. the 1/1/1, it'll pay itself off before any push the 1/1/1 can assemble, and you can (with good micro) survive any rush that comes from their 13 Rax in response, though you'll have to pull probes. A 10-Rax will just kill you outright though unless you cancel your Nexus or scout so early that you just make a delayed gate, but you WILL end up behind. How am I going to identify a 1/1/1 build THAT early AND force him to commit to it? At that point he could EASILY spot the Nexus and just plop another Barracks down instead of a Factory and then walk all over me with Marine spam. What I love, as a Terran player, is that the only "good" way to handle 1/1/1 for Protoss, is to start committing to FE play, which opens up my options such a large amount. 1 base protoss is just so strong, it tunnels Terran into only one or two different options, none of which promote expansion taking. Although marine spam should never beat protoss outright- there needs to be concussive marauder or tank to deal with stalker- it feels good to have a build that moves Protoss off of one base. There shouldn't be any way to differentiate between 1/1/1 and something else that early, but you can feel out 1/1/1 well before the starport if you can catch the second refinery placement on Terran's 15-17 food, which is no tech lab rax, before the second depot, only one marine trained and rarely trained completely before the refinery is started. There's no way a second gas that early is going to be an expand or an aggressive bio build.
I wouldn't say the only way to handle 1/1/1 is FE. Certainly if you're cross positions on large maps or something that might be wise, but 1/1/1 is prone to certain rushes, especially on particular maps. Blistering and Kulas have backdoors that can be blown wide open with a 4-gate or 3-gate robo, Void Rays into Blink Stalkers is very abusable on Oasis, etc.
Frankly Void Rays into Blink Stalkers can be very effective as Void Rays can give you sight onto high ground for you Blink and warp units onto if you have a proxy pylon placed there. A lot of Terran are going 1/1/1 nowadays from what I've seen and they are starting to get too confident in their wall-off.
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EPT
