EPT1-1-1 is more of defend and timing attack in midgame with a diverse unit composition or defend with tech and expand. It's not a rush with 2 tanks and 10 marines build. It's definitely easier to criticize than to perform but the approach these replays showed with 1-1-1 is not optimal at all.
[D] Protoss 2/1/1 - Page 2
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
1-1-1 is more of defend and timing attack in midgame with a diverse unit composition or defend with tech and expand. It's not a rush with 2 tanks and 10 marines build. It's definitely easier to criticize than to perform but the approach these replays showed with 1-1-1 is not optimal at all. | ||
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Acidlineup
123 Posts
Here is something u can try> Instead of building robo first try to build Stargate first and get that fast phoenix (while also savin up for robo and also have some early gateway units to defend) and with this ONE phoenix (so dont wait untill u have like 4) scout his base. there is no way he will know if its real phoenix or a halucination, and with this scout u can know if hes going marine/ghost combo. If he is then STOP building any units from robo, and also stop building any units from a stargate and focus on gateway unist and sentrys so u can block ur ramp untill colossi arrive. Have a practice partner and make him go marine/ghost combo and u do this and let us know pls how it went. ^^ gl. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
I do this in a backwards way. I go 2/1(Stargate)/1(Robo). Usually if I scout with a Pheonix they overproduce marines and die to zealot/sentry. If they don't attack I scout with the obs (Carefully in case of turrets) so I can respond to their composition. More stargate units if it is mech or air. | ||
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Acidlineup
123 Posts
Here is the build u should try> 9 pylon 12 gate (scout) 13 gas 14 pylon 15 cyber core 16 zlot 17 pylon 21 or 22 stalker (to repel any early reaper) when cyber finishes build one sentry and trow down second gas build probes (no units) untill u have enough gas for a stargate while stagate is building throw down second gateway and a pylon and a second sentry keep pumping zlots from one gateway while second is building and only now start researching warpgate upgrade. Build one phoenix and scout his entre base, while also lookin for proxies when warpgate upgrade starts, now is safe to throw down robo. 2 senties with support from gateway units should be enough to stop any early marauder rushes (ur objective is not to engage him, just block ur ramp) See what ur scout tells u, and is hes going more marauders than marines build one voidray and one immortal. If he has all marines and just few marauders(1-2), dont engage in a fight, build more sentries, keep blocking ur ramp while waiting for a collosi and then push and while he is falling back throw down an expansion. The strenght of this build is if he goes mostly marauders with a ghost, just build voidrays and immortal and crush him right there with the support of ur ground forces. If he goes marines/ghost u cant fight and u have to wait for colosi (keep blocking ur ramp with a forcefield) and then to push out from ur base but what u can do is while he is waiting fro u with marines and a ghost to enter ur base, keep pumping only senties and phoenix so u can continue to block ur ramp while in the same time harrasing him with phoenixes (for that u really need to be focused). 2/1/1 beats terran 1/1/1 easily so no explanation there how u should play. banshee rush, easy... just all depends from ur first phoenix scout and u will see it coming. | ||
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
I think the versatility of this build is amazing and perhaps not utilising the ability to get only a single early VR has been overlooked thus far. Gonna try this build some more but seems like the new sliced bread atm  | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 16:46 Acidlineup wrote: I think your points are really good. I'll give them a go the next time I get a chance. I think I had pretty much reached a similar conclusion to you today anyway -- post abridged -- On July 11 2010 18:24 Zacsafus wrote: I feel that perhaps pumping an early VR instead of a phoenix first would be beneficial, as attacking him will allow you to see his army comp so you can check for ghosts. It let's you get a powerful harasser without destroying your tech line and will keep him in his base long enough for a collosi follow up or expand if you see bio play. I think the versatility of this build is amazing and perhaps not utilising the ability to get only a single early VR has been overlooked thus far. Gonna try this build some more but seems like the new sliced bread atm I'm not so sure about the VR first. I think Phoenix is slightly better just for scouting purposes and the decreased cost allows you to get that robo up sooner. I think the VR build lends itself much more to a white-ra style of play which isn't necessarily bad, it's just not a 2/1/1. | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 11 2010 09:45 nujgnoy wrote: 2 of the players didn't really understand what to do with 1-1-1 and lost all their men and tanks attacking the P with 1 or 2 tanks. If a T wants to rush a P at that time, might as well go bio. 1-1-1 is more of defend and timing attack in midgame with a diverse unit composition or defend with tech and expand. It's not a rush with 2 tanks and 10 marines build. It's definitely easier to criticize than to perform but the approach these replays showed with 1-1-1 is not optimal at all. It's not a rush but a form of poking in, no different than a fd build. The inclusion of a phoenix commits my tanks to the initial battle but I will pull my tank back if I can. I'm not sure how my game went (we played a lot of games on Friday) but I think I tried to go for a contain at his choke with vikings to spot the high-ground. Iirc plexa hit me just before my second tank arrived and managed to clean it up pretty well. Sure, if P goes phoenix or heavy gateways then I will lose my push but I can save my tank in a lot of situations and do a lot of damage vs fe and dt. I disagree that its optimal to simply turtle until you hit critical mass of tanks. Maybe a better approach is to wait for 3 tanks and look for the phoenix but that might be too late for dt or fe, I don't know. | ||
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Acidlineup
123 Posts
I'm not so sure about the VR first. I think Phoenix is slightly better just for scouting purposes and the decreased cost allows you to get that robo up sooner. I think the VR build lends itself much more to a white-ra style of play which isn't necessarily bad, it's just not a 2/1/1. Exactly. U go voidrays only if ur phoenix scout tells u hes goin heavy on marauders (and also ofcourse pump immos). Whitera indeed does 2/1/1 only hes style is different. He goes voidrays mixed with dark templars. Thats even more gas heavy that 2/1/1 robo and more risky. Cloacked banshees and u die. | ||
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
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OminouS
Sweden1343 Posts
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sputnik.theory
Poland449 Posts
I'll post some replays when matchmaking decides to stop placing me against silver league players  | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On July 11 2010 21:39 infinity21 wrote: It's not a rush but a form of poking in, no different than a fd build. The inclusion of a phoenix commits my tanks to the initial battle but I will pull my tank back if I can. I'm not sure how my game went (we played a lot of games on Friday) but I think I tried to go for a contain at his choke with vikings to spot the high-ground. Iirc plexa hit me just before my second tank arrived and managed to clean it up pretty well. Sure, if P goes phoenix or heavy gateways then I will lose my push but I can save my tank in a lot of situations and do a lot of damage vs fe and dt. I disagree that its optimal to simply turtle until you hit critical mass of tanks. Maybe a better approach is to wait for 3 tanks and look for the phoenix but that might be too late for dt or fe, I don't know. If you watch current korean progamer TvP, 1. Terran is SCREWED if he loses his tanks w/o killing almost twice as many goons. This forces him to either play completely defensive for the most of the game 2. FD can only work with the best of micro 3. FD is as viable as it is only because of mines. 4. FD needs to come asap with tanks and many number of marines 5. FD works against an expanding P, not really a 1 base P In that rep, 1. In that rep, the terran traded 10+ marines, 1 viking, and 1 tank for pretty much no gas costing units. The Protoss lost his phoenix before the engagement even started when he used graviton beam too early. And STILL the T lost it cost inefficiently. 2. the tank was busy shooting the immortal the entire time 3. There is no mine to save the tank from protoss units 4. The terran not only made a late 2nd refinery which meant VERY late timing, he made a stargate. FD terrans poke around after Barracks-Factory, not Barracks-Factory-Factory (and certainly not after Barracks-Factory-Starport). 5. This P did NOT expand and instead went for a stargate and produced men If the T waits until 3 tanks, the P's army would be relatively a LOT stronger. For ex, he can have 3 immos to match the tanks, or just more zealots and phoenix. And maybe a terran player might feel a bit inactive maintaining a defensive posture, but if the t loses 2 tanks and 10+ marines to "poke around" the t is absolutely forced to be defensive. You threw down 2 bunkers iirc after the fight. Do you seriously think a terran who loses that much force (for doing so little damage) and is trying to stay alive by putting down bunkers can win a macro game against a protoss who now is sitting outside your ramp with a stargate for map control? I'm not saying either of the 2 terran players were bad. I looked at their base, and their macro was decent while managing the battle. But in both cases the terran players were absolutely crushed. I'm not saying a T has to turtle all the game. I clearly said that one possible way to play 1-1-1 is to make a later timing rush when the T possesses a diverse unit mix. But these replays are not very promising executions of a bw style FD which should come after 1-1 and should not be delayed to put down a starport which only gives the P time to produce army. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
That said, I think you should still try to make it work. Assuming that you're still trying to build phoenixes and immortals with your 2-1-1 build, I think you should consider cutting one of those units out. They basically serve the same purpose in the early game: disabling/killing tanks or other terran mech. If you find some way to incorporate into your build the protoss units/tech that are better at killing masses of weaker units (like marines), I think you'll find that your build is more well-rounded and better at dealing with whatever the terran throws at you. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 12 2010 12:57 xDaunt wrote: Everything you wrote is true. I found exactly that in my trials. The first phoenix is really really useless other than scouting information (which is awesome) but you can really only scout out things that you can't stop haha. The build really destroys mech Terrans though, unfortunately there are 2 other builds which are valid and don't involve mech. I can't really work out a way to get into a position where this is valid against the marauder based builds and the marine ghost based builds. Stargate first is very solid against any terran opening if you get a void ray first. However, the problem is that making void rays will cause the terran to mass marines. Eventually, you'll need to get colossi or templar to deal with the larger bio mass that the terran develops, which, as you've noted, is the primary weakness with your build. With this in mind, I don't think that a protoss can or should swing a strict 2-1-1 build. I think the safer move is to use the void ray to buy time to expand and then tech to colossi (this is basically what all my PvT's look like now). That said, I think you should still try to make it work. Assuming that you're still trying to build phoenixes and immortals with your 2-1-1 build, I think you should consider cutting one of those units out. They basically serve the same purpose in the early game: disabling/killing tanks or other terran mech. If you find some way to incorporate into your build the protoss units/tech that are better at killing masses of weaker units (like marines), I think you'll find that your build is more well-rounded and better at dealing with whatever the terran throws at you. | ||
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RAUS
210 Posts
On July 11 2010 09:13 arb wrote: Guardian shield works well against it but youre relying on the immortal to kill the tanks(they'll have emp most def) they'll emp it and shut it down then your army just melts to the tank fire However if you have charge most marine tank/ghost pushes will die pretty easily emp theoretically nulls guardian, and theres no way you can support twilight council and charge and robo and stargate off 1 base | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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Almisael
Austria235 Posts
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