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Aotearoa39261 Posts
So we already had about the theorycraft behind a Protoss 1-1-1 here which lead to some pretty interesting discussion. When Corinthos, Infinity21 and myself were gaming last night I happened to try something very similar to what was suggested in the thread, except it being a 2/1/1 build (2gate, 1 robo, 1 stargate). Let me give you some background quickly, Corinthos is a Diamond Terran, Infinity is currently in platinum but easily a mid range/upper Diamond player, I'm currently Protoss in platinum playing diamonds and I expect to be promoted soon.
Back to the story, so I try this 2-1-1 build and to my surprise I'm easily able to fend off Corinthos's first rine/tank push. Infinity was impressed by the build, and gave it a go himself and his initial rush met with a similar fate. Since then, I've been playing this build a bit and I have 5 replays demonstrating various facets of the build. The games aren't perfect, I make lots of mistakes, but they should serve as a good starting point for the game-based theorycraft as opposed to blind theorycraft like we had in the last thread.
Unfortunately I don't have the first game I used this in  but I do have every other game. I lose a few of these games, but I don't think the losses are because of the build in anyway (i.e. my opponents out play me after I gain an advantage early on).
The idea behind the build is to get Immortals out to take the hits and deal the damage, use the Phoenix to grav lift the Tanks (they're a key unit in 1/1/1 and this takes them right out) and have zeal/stalker/sentry (in whatever proportions) to make short work of the marines and eventually tank. It works pretty well. The 2nd gate I think is necessary to fend off any Marauder pushes - but I'm not entirely convinced it's safe against it at the moment (rep to showcase why below).
Game 1 - ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png) Plexa vs ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png) Infinity21
I lose this game, but I really shouldn't have. Simply not forgetting to build obs would have made a better game of this. But still, not bad for the 2nd time I ever used this build. It certainly showcases it's strength against the 1/1/1 push.
Game 2 - Plexa vs Corinthos
Timings are a bit weird on Steppes due to the rush distance. First push was broken without the aid of a Phoenix so perhaps the Phoenix's are not necessary. Anyway, game drags on and Phoenix get some use.
Game 3 - Plexa vs IcyFenix
This game is absolutely full of stupid mistakes by me. Literally riddled full of them. Nevertheless, it showcases how effective Phoenix can be really well and just how useful immortals are in fending off the early pressure. I would have held the early pressure better if I wasn't dumb and lost my initial 2 stalkers for nothing.
Game 4 - Plexa vs Donareiche
Some Maraduer pressure. I die to it like, really easily. I think with better scouting though it wouldn't have been so bad (i.e. leaving the probe at the ramp as opposed to at the watch tower out of the way). Again, this is on steppes so the rush distance still threw me off a bit. Nevertheless, I think this is a valid weakness of the build and perhaps the 2nd gate really is a bit useless.
Game 5 - Plexa vs Bunny
Simple game demonstrating how the build works when done well. I screw up my micro when I attack, but you get the picture! (my hands were cold T_T).
With those games played, this is what I think of the strengths and weaknesses of the build;
- Immortal/Phoenix is a really rock solid combination for dismantling tank based pushes. Immortals are amazing at soaking hits and dealing damage when the armies are still small (they suck more and more as the game goes on) while Phoenix can remove the tank from play and virtually render the push useless.
- Marauder pressure is a legitimate issue for the build. I'm not entirely convinced that the 2nd gate actually helps. I think scouting for this is absolutely essential when using this build, and hopefully the 2nd gate allows you to stall with a sentry before the immortal comes out (the immortal is key is fending off this pressure). While I didn't use a sentry in the game that I lost, with better scouting I'm sure that this would be a valid way to survive.
- Phoenix/Immortal is excellent for pushing the attack back, although when you run out of grav lift the Phoenix is kinda silly. Nevertheless, it does give you ample time to set up a safe expo and get into the midgame against the Terran very easily.
- I like how this build gives you a quick Stargate. I like using Carriers in PvT and I think this build naturally lends itself well to a mid game Carrier transition.
Now that we have some games to discuss, I'm interested to see how the discussion will continue on from the last thread on the issue!
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Can you give a rough build order?
Ill try this in some games and bring reps back also(diamond lvl toss)
(i still cant figure out how to make reps work -.-)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sure I can give you a build, although I do not guarantee that it is optimal in any way.
9 pylon
13 gate (scout)
14 gas
16 pylon
18 core
20 gas
21 gate
22 warp
22 stalker
24 pylon
26 robo
27 stalker/sentry (this might need to come before robo)
30 stargate
34 immortal
39 phoenix
I think theres a stalker after the immortal as well. Anyway, rough BO
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A couple thoughts:
1) I don't see why this build should be weak against marauders. If you poke around a bit with your scouting probe or first stalker (at the very latest, with your first phoenix or observer), you will have ample warning that the terran is going marauders and will be able to get a couple void rays up. Any stargate opening should stop marauder-based builds cold.
2) A ghost/marine build may be difficult to stop. Immortals, phoenixes, and void rays are all bad against ghost/marine builds. Phoenixes and void rays, when properly used to harass, can help you keep the terran in his base so that you have time to build colossi. However, this can be very difficult. If you scout a marine/ghost build, you might want to delay the stargate and just tech straight for colossi. Keep in mind that relying upon gateways units will result in a loss because you will not have the benefit of the twilight council upgrades.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 07:50 xDaunt wrote:
A couple thoughts:
1) I don't see why this build should be weak against marauders. If you poke around a bit with your scouting probe or first stalker (at the very latest, with your first phoenix or observer), you will have ample warning that the terran is going marauders and will be able to get a couple void rays up. Any stargate opening should stop marauder-based builds cold. Very true, but I'm talking about real hard Marauder rushes. The build leaves you with so little units very early on that quick marauder pressure can be really hard to stop. Later marauder pushes I'm not so worried about since Immortals are good against them and you're right, with a Stargate Void Rays are also an amazing option.
2) A ghost/marine build may be difficult to stop. Immortals, phoenixes, and void rays are all bad against ghost/marine builds. Phoenixes and void rays, when properly used to harass, can help you keep the terran in his base so that you have time to build colossi. However, this can be very difficult. If you scout a marine/ghost build, you might want to delay the stargate and just tech straight for colossi. Keep in mind that relying upon gateways units will result in a loss because you will not have the benefit of the twilight council upgrades. Perhaps, I think you could still use phoenix in a similar way though (i.e. grav lifting the ghosts) since ghosts are a key unit in that mix. It's definitely an interesting thought though. Maraduer/Ghost might be more scary though!
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On July 11 2010 07:49 Plexa wrote:
Sure I can give you a build, although I do not guarantee that it is optimal in any way.
9 pylon
13 gate (scout)
14 gas
16 pylon
18 core
20 gas
21 gate
22 warp
22 stalker
24 pylon
26 robo
27 stalker/sentry (this might need to come before robo)
30 stargate
34 immortal
39 phoenix
I think theres a stalker after the immortal as well. Anyway, rough BO
Ill try this out a couple times then come back with reps
BRB
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On July 11 2010 07:55 Plexa wrote:
Very true, but I'm talking about real hard Marauder rushes. The build leaves you with so little units very early on that quick marauder pressure can be really hard to stop. Later marauder pushes I'm not so worried about since Immortals are good against them and you're right, with a Stargate Void Rays are also an amazing option.
Well let me put it this way: whether a toss can beat a very aggressive marauder rush isn't really that build-specific. All it requires 2 gateways that produce a mixture of zealots and stalkers. You can build whatever tech building you want. If you fail to scout the marauder attack and blindly pursue your build, you're obviously going to have problems because you won't have enough units. If you scout the marauders and shift the order of your build to either 2 gate + robo => stargate or 2 gate + stargate => robo, you'll be fine.
On July 11 2010 07:55 Plexa wrote:
Perhaps, I think you could still use phoenix in a similar way though (i.e. grav lifting the ghosts) since ghosts are a key unit in that mix. It's definitely an interesting thought though. Maraduer/Ghost might be more scary though!
A lot of people talk about using phoenixes to lift ghosts, but I've never seen it work particularly well. Even if you did manage to lift the ghost and prevent the EMP, the mass of stimmed marines is going to shred your army. I think Nony even said that when he goes phoenix first and scouts a ghost/marine build, he cuts phoenix production and transitions into something else.
Marauder/ghost should be easy to deal with. The terran force will be fairly small and a couple void rays will help you burn down the marauders in the absence of massed marines.
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http://rapidshare.com/files/406222694/211_test_1.SC2Replay
Thats a test i did, it looks fairly good though my macro was quite poor(rust + slight lag now in p2?) overall though i think it could be fairly stable with a bit of work
the 2 early sentries killed me i have no idea why i made them >.<
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I guess we're thinking about two different time frames then. I tend to only build about 1-2 phoenix's when using this build so if I scout that he's going marine/ghost then I agree - Immo/Phoenix will get killed. If he's going for a marine/ghost timing (i.e. rines and 1-2 ghosts) really quickly then I'm confident that the build won't get crushed. I think you're referring to a later push in which case (like I said) upon scouting it you would need to add sentries and/or colo depending on the timing.
I think it's still playable.
On July 11 2010 08:18 arb wrote:http://rapidshare.com/files/406222694/211_test_1.SC2ReplayThats a test i did, it looks fairly good though my macro was quite poor(rust + slight lag now in p2?) overall though i think it could be fairly stable with a bit of work the 2 early sentries killed me i have no idea why i made them >.<
I tend to make nonstop immortals for a while because they really are amazing at taking hits. But that Terran didn't push out so it didn't matter haha  he just turtled. In which case just taking expo like you did and being happy is sufficient. I don't usually build that many phoenix since I think their effectiveness degrades over time (and as the tank count increases).
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On July 11 2010 08:19 Plexa wrote:
I guess we're thinking about two different time frames then. I tend to only build about 1-2 phoenix's when using this build so if I scout that he's going marine/ghost then I agree - Immo/Phoenix will get killed. If he's going for a marine/ghost timing (i.e. rines and 1-2 ghosts) really quickly then I'm confident that the build won't get crushed. I think you're referring to a later push in which case (like I said) upon scouting it you would need to add sentries and/or colo depending on the timing.
I think it's still playable.
I think i got up to 4, which was a good thing later on when he had about 3-4 tanks since i could lift them and allow my chargelots
( i got charge as soon as i expanded) to rush in and kill the rest of his army
Its quite a nice build ill probably be trying out later considering i usually do 1sg expand into charge/storm PvT now
I agree maybe a bit overboard on the pheonix but i figure this way you have the option of SCV harass or whatever you want to do also
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sure, if anything the ability to keep making phoenix helps the flexibility of the build. If the build can see a variety of playstyles emerging from it then that just makes it that much better.
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1. Robo-Stargate only should crush marauder or mech oriented play
2. Robo-Stargate should be crushed by marine-ghost oriented play
3. But teching to colo will let the P to crush the marine-ghost heavy composition as soon as the colos are ready
4. The terran will pump vikings to counter the colo, and the p should most likely transition to heavier gateway play incorporating templars
So although lategame will probably look similar, opening this way will help the P be safe against marauder based play making him vulnerable to marine-ghost based play until the colossus is ready. That's the vista I get from first glance, will most likely watch the rep and comment
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1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.)
2) Can you expand before adding the Stargate?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 08:41 Severedevil wrote:
1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.) I'm getting the Robo pretty quickly, the 2nd gate doesn't really affect that much since it doesn't waste gas.
2) Can you expand before adding the Stargate? Depends on the situation, I would suspect a quick marine/tank push would kill me.
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Game 3 is actually TvT between Corinthos and Infinity
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 08:54 Tuke wrote:
Game 3 is actually TvT between Corinthos and Infinity
oops fixed
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It could be used as a vZ follow up after 2 gate pressure into expansion. Since this is a gas oriented build, we could try 2 gate or forge fast expand builds, not for the extra minerals, but taking 4 geysers ASAP so we are allowed an a smooth production and defensive capabilities..
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On July 11 2010 08:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 08:41 Severedevil wrote:
1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.) I'm getting the Robo pretty quickly, the 2nd gate doesn't really affect that much since it doesn't waste gas.
You could definitely get the Robo faster.
You could delay Warp. You could also delay your first Stalker (contingent on not being Reaper harassed, of course), or cut probes/delay chrono on probes to get the #2 gas started before the pylon.
Unfortunately I can't test myself because I no longer have access to an SC2-capable computer... but you could certainly have Immortals out faster if you want them, which you might since they're what ends Marauder pressure.
Depends on the situation, I would suspect a quick marine/tank push would kill me.
Really? I guess I've underestimated marine/tank pushes; I would think Zealot/Stalker/Immortal with a guardian shield would shut that down easily.
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On July 11 2010 09:12 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 08:53 Plexa wrote:On July 11 2010 08:41 Severedevil wrote:
1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.) I'm getting the Robo pretty quickly, the 2nd gate doesn't really affect that much since it doesn't waste gas. You could definitely get the Robo faster. You could delay Warp. You could also delay your first Stalker (contingent on not being Reaper harassed, of course), or cut probes/delay chrono on probes to get the #2 gas started before the pylon. Unfortunately I can't test myself because I no longer have access to an SC2-capable computer... but you could certainly have Immortals out faster if you want them, which you might since they're what ends Marauder pressure. Show nested quote +2) Can you expand before adding the Stargate? Depends on the situation, I would suspect a quick marine/tank push would kill me. Really? I guess I've underestimated marine/tank pushes; I would think Zealot/Stalker/Immortal with a guardian shield would shut that down easily.
Guardian shield works well against it but youre relying on the immortal to kill the tanks(they'll have emp most def) they'll emp it and shut it down then your army just melts to the tank fire
However if you have charge most marine tank/ghost pushes will die pretty easily
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I suspect this will suffer against any marine-heavy build, especially marine-ghost.
If your first stalker sees an emphasis on marines, robo/twilight (heading for chargelot/sentry and then colossi or HTs) might be a safer tech mix.
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EPT
