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Aotearoa39261 Posts
So we already had about the theorycraft behind a Protoss 1-1-1 here which lead to some pretty interesting discussion. When Corinthos, Infinity21 and myself were gaming last night I happened to try something very similar to what was suggested in the thread, except it being a 2/1/1 build (2gate, 1 robo, 1 stargate). Let me give you some background quickly, Corinthos is a Diamond Terran, Infinity is currently in platinum but easily a mid range/upper Diamond player, I'm currently Protoss in platinum playing diamonds and I expect to be promoted soon.
Back to the story, so I try this 2-1-1 build and to my surprise I'm easily able to fend off Corinthos's first rine/tank push. Infinity was impressed by the build, and gave it a go himself and his initial rush met with a similar fate. Since then, I've been playing this build a bit and I have 5 replays demonstrating various facets of the build. The games aren't perfect, I make lots of mistakes, but they should serve as a good starting point for the game-based theorycraft as opposed to blind theorycraft like we had in the last thread.
Unfortunately I don't have the first game I used this in  but I do have every other game. I lose a few of these games, but I don't think the losses are because of the build in anyway (i.e. my opponents out play me after I gain an advantage early on).
The idea behind the build is to get Immortals out to take the hits and deal the damage, use the Phoenix to grav lift the Tanks (they're a key unit in 1/1/1 and this takes them right out) and have zeal/stalker/sentry (in whatever proportions) to make short work of the marines and eventually tank. It works pretty well. The 2nd gate I think is necessary to fend off any Marauder pushes - but I'm not entirely convinced it's safe against it at the moment (rep to showcase why below).
Game 1 - ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png) Plexa vs ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png) Infinity21
I lose this game, but I really shouldn't have. Simply not forgetting to build obs would have made a better game of this. But still, not bad for the 2nd time I ever used this build. It certainly showcases it's strength against the 1/1/1 push.
Game 2 - Plexa vs Corinthos
Timings are a bit weird on Steppes due to the rush distance. First push was broken without the aid of a Phoenix so perhaps the Phoenix's are not necessary. Anyway, game drags on and Phoenix get some use.
Game 3 - Plexa vs IcyFenix
This game is absolutely full of stupid mistakes by me. Literally riddled full of them. Nevertheless, it showcases how effective Phoenix can be really well and just how useful immortals are in fending off the early pressure. I would have held the early pressure better if I wasn't dumb and lost my initial 2 stalkers for nothing.
Game 4 - Plexa vs Donareiche
Some Maraduer pressure. I die to it like, really easily. I think with better scouting though it wouldn't have been so bad (i.e. leaving the probe at the ramp as opposed to at the watch tower out of the way). Again, this is on steppes so the rush distance still threw me off a bit. Nevertheless, I think this is a valid weakness of the build and perhaps the 2nd gate really is a bit useless.
Game 5 - Plexa vs Bunny
Simple game demonstrating how the build works when done well. I screw up my micro when I attack, but you get the picture! (my hands were cold T_T).
With those games played, this is what I think of the strengths and weaknesses of the build;
- Immortal/Phoenix is a really rock solid combination for dismantling tank based pushes. Immortals are amazing at soaking hits and dealing damage when the armies are still small (they suck more and more as the game goes on) while Phoenix can remove the tank from play and virtually render the push useless.
- Marauder pressure is a legitimate issue for the build. I'm not entirely convinced that the 2nd gate actually helps. I think scouting for this is absolutely essential when using this build, and hopefully the 2nd gate allows you to stall with a sentry before the immortal comes out (the immortal is key is fending off this pressure). While I didn't use a sentry in the game that I lost, with better scouting I'm sure that this would be a valid way to survive.
- Phoenix/Immortal is excellent for pushing the attack back, although when you run out of grav lift the Phoenix is kinda silly. Nevertheless, it does give you ample time to set up a safe expo and get into the midgame against the Terran very easily.
- I like how this build gives you a quick Stargate. I like using Carriers in PvT and I think this build naturally lends itself well to a mid game Carrier transition.
Now that we have some games to discuss, I'm interested to see how the discussion will continue on from the last thread on the issue!
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Can you give a rough build order?
Ill try this in some games and bring reps back also(diamond lvl toss)
(i still cant figure out how to make reps work -.-)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sure I can give you a build, although I do not guarantee that it is optimal in any way.
9 pylon
13 gate (scout)
14 gas
16 pylon
18 core
20 gas
21 gate
22 warp
22 stalker
24 pylon
26 robo
27 stalker/sentry (this might need to come before robo)
30 stargate
34 immortal
39 phoenix
I think theres a stalker after the immortal as well. Anyway, rough BO
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A couple thoughts:
1) I don't see why this build should be weak against marauders. If you poke around a bit with your scouting probe or first stalker (at the very latest, with your first phoenix or observer), you will have ample warning that the terran is going marauders and will be able to get a couple void rays up. Any stargate opening should stop marauder-based builds cold.
2) A ghost/marine build may be difficult to stop. Immortals, phoenixes, and void rays are all bad against ghost/marine builds. Phoenixes and void rays, when properly used to harass, can help you keep the terran in his base so that you have time to build colossi. However, this can be very difficult. If you scout a marine/ghost build, you might want to delay the stargate and just tech straight for colossi. Keep in mind that relying upon gateways units will result in a loss because you will not have the benefit of the twilight council upgrades.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 07:50 xDaunt wrote:
A couple thoughts:
1) I don't see why this build should be weak against marauders. If you poke around a bit with your scouting probe or first stalker (at the very latest, with your first phoenix or observer), you will have ample warning that the terran is going marauders and will be able to get a couple void rays up. Any stargate opening should stop marauder-based builds cold. Very true, but I'm talking about real hard Marauder rushes. The build leaves you with so little units very early on that quick marauder pressure can be really hard to stop. Later marauder pushes I'm not so worried about since Immortals are good against them and you're right, with a Stargate Void Rays are also an amazing option.
2) A ghost/marine build may be difficult to stop. Immortals, phoenixes, and void rays are all bad against ghost/marine builds. Phoenixes and void rays, when properly used to harass, can help you keep the terran in his base so that you have time to build colossi. However, this can be very difficult. If you scout a marine/ghost build, you might want to delay the stargate and just tech straight for colossi. Keep in mind that relying upon gateways units will result in a loss because you will not have the benefit of the twilight council upgrades. Perhaps, I think you could still use phoenix in a similar way though (i.e. grav lifting the ghosts) since ghosts are a key unit in that mix. It's definitely an interesting thought though. Maraduer/Ghost might be more scary though!
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On July 11 2010 07:49 Plexa wrote:
Sure I can give you a build, although I do not guarantee that it is optimal in any way.
9 pylon
13 gate (scout)
14 gas
16 pylon
18 core
20 gas
21 gate
22 warp
22 stalker
24 pylon
26 robo
27 stalker/sentry (this might need to come before robo)
30 stargate
34 immortal
39 phoenix
I think theres a stalker after the immortal as well. Anyway, rough BO
Ill try this out a couple times then come back with reps
BRB
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On July 11 2010 07:55 Plexa wrote:
Very true, but I'm talking about real hard Marauder rushes. The build leaves you with so little units very early on that quick marauder pressure can be really hard to stop. Later marauder pushes I'm not so worried about since Immortals are good against them and you're right, with a Stargate Void Rays are also an amazing option.
Well let me put it this way: whether a toss can beat a very aggressive marauder rush isn't really that build-specific. All it requires 2 gateways that produce a mixture of zealots and stalkers. You can build whatever tech building you want. If you fail to scout the marauder attack and blindly pursue your build, you're obviously going to have problems because you won't have enough units. If you scout the marauders and shift the order of your build to either 2 gate + robo => stargate or 2 gate + stargate => robo, you'll be fine.
On July 11 2010 07:55 Plexa wrote:
Perhaps, I think you could still use phoenix in a similar way though (i.e. grav lifting the ghosts) since ghosts are a key unit in that mix. It's definitely an interesting thought though. Maraduer/Ghost might be more scary though!
A lot of people talk about using phoenixes to lift ghosts, but I've never seen it work particularly well. Even if you did manage to lift the ghost and prevent the EMP, the mass of stimmed marines is going to shred your army. I think Nony even said that when he goes phoenix first and scouts a ghost/marine build, he cuts phoenix production and transitions into something else.
Marauder/ghost should be easy to deal with. The terran force will be fairly small and a couple void rays will help you burn down the marauders in the absence of massed marines.
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http://rapidshare.com/files/406222694/211_test_1.SC2Replay
Thats a test i did, it looks fairly good though my macro was quite poor(rust + slight lag now in p2?) overall though i think it could be fairly stable with a bit of work
the 2 early sentries killed me i have no idea why i made them >.<
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I guess we're thinking about two different time frames then. I tend to only build about 1-2 phoenix's when using this build so if I scout that he's going marine/ghost then I agree - Immo/Phoenix will get killed. If he's going for a marine/ghost timing (i.e. rines and 1-2 ghosts) really quickly then I'm confident that the build won't get crushed. I think you're referring to a later push in which case (like I said) upon scouting it you would need to add sentries and/or colo depending on the timing.
I think it's still playable.
On July 11 2010 08:18 arb wrote:http://rapidshare.com/files/406222694/211_test_1.SC2ReplayThats a test i did, it looks fairly good though my macro was quite poor(rust + slight lag now in p2?) overall though i think it could be fairly stable with a bit of work the 2 early sentries killed me i have no idea why i made them >.<
I tend to make nonstop immortals for a while because they really are amazing at taking hits. But that Terran didn't push out so it didn't matter haha  he just turtled. In which case just taking expo like you did and being happy is sufficient. I don't usually build that many phoenix since I think their effectiveness degrades over time (and as the tank count increases).
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On July 11 2010 08:19 Plexa wrote:
I guess we're thinking about two different time frames then. I tend to only build about 1-2 phoenix's when using this build so if I scout that he's going marine/ghost then I agree - Immo/Phoenix will get killed. If he's going for a marine/ghost timing (i.e. rines and 1-2 ghosts) really quickly then I'm confident that the build won't get crushed. I think you're referring to a later push in which case (like I said) upon scouting it you would need to add sentries and/or colo depending on the timing.
I think it's still playable.
I think i got up to 4, which was a good thing later on when he had about 3-4 tanks since i could lift them and allow my chargelots
( i got charge as soon as i expanded) to rush in and kill the rest of his army
Its quite a nice build ill probably be trying out later considering i usually do 1sg expand into charge/storm PvT now
I agree maybe a bit overboard on the pheonix but i figure this way you have the option of SCV harass or whatever you want to do also
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Sure, if anything the ability to keep making phoenix helps the flexibility of the build. If the build can see a variety of playstyles emerging from it then that just makes it that much better.
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1. Robo-Stargate only should crush marauder or mech oriented play
2. Robo-Stargate should be crushed by marine-ghost oriented play
3. But teching to colo will let the P to crush the marine-ghost heavy composition as soon as the colos are ready
4. The terran will pump vikings to counter the colo, and the p should most likely transition to heavier gateway play incorporating templars
So although lategame will probably look similar, opening this way will help the P be safe against marauder based play making him vulnerable to marine-ghost based play until the colossus is ready. That's the vista I get from first glance, will most likely watch the rep and comment
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1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.)
2) Can you expand before adding the Stargate?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 08:41 Severedevil wrote:
1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.) I'm getting the Robo pretty quickly, the 2nd gate doesn't really affect that much since it doesn't waste gas.
2) Can you expand before adding the Stargate? Depends on the situation, I would suspect a quick marine/tank push would kill me.
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Game 3 is actually TvT between Corinthos and Infinity
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 08:54 Tuke wrote:
Game 3 is actually TvT between Corinthos and Infinity
oops fixed
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It could be used as a vZ follow up after 2 gate pressure into expansion. Since this is a gas oriented build, we could try 2 gate or forge fast expand builds, not for the extra minerals, but taking 4 geysers ASAP so we are allowed an a smooth production and defensive capabilities..
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On July 11 2010 08:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 08:41 Severedevil wrote:
1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.) I'm getting the Robo pretty quickly, the 2nd gate doesn't really affect that much since it doesn't waste gas.
You could definitely get the Robo faster.
You could delay Warp. You could also delay your first Stalker (contingent on not being Reaper harassed, of course), or cut probes/delay chrono on probes to get the #2 gas started before the pylon.
Unfortunately I can't test myself because I no longer have access to an SC2-capable computer... but you could certainly have Immortals out faster if you want them, which you might since they're what ends Marauder pressure.
Depends on the situation, I would suspect a quick marine/tank push would kill me.
Really? I guess I've underestimated marine/tank pushes; I would think Zealot/Stalker/Immortal with a guardian shield would shut that down easily.
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On July 11 2010 09:12 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 08:53 Plexa wrote:On July 11 2010 08:41 Severedevil wrote:
1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.) I'm getting the Robo pretty quickly, the 2nd gate doesn't really affect that much since it doesn't waste gas. You could definitely get the Robo faster. You could delay Warp. You could also delay your first Stalker (contingent on not being Reaper harassed, of course), or cut probes/delay chrono on probes to get the #2 gas started before the pylon. Unfortunately I can't test myself because I no longer have access to an SC2-capable computer... but you could certainly have Immortals out faster if you want them, which you might since they're what ends Marauder pressure. Show nested quote +2) Can you expand before adding the Stargate? Depends on the situation, I would suspect a quick marine/tank push would kill me. Really? I guess I've underestimated marine/tank pushes; I would think Zealot/Stalker/Immortal with a guardian shield would shut that down easily.
Guardian shield works well against it but youre relying on the immortal to kill the tanks(they'll have emp most def) they'll emp it and shut it down then your army just melts to the tank fire
However if you have charge most marine tank/ghost pushes will die pretty easily
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I suspect this will suffer against any marine-heavy build, especially marine-ghost.
If your first stalker sees an emphasis on marines, robo/twilight (heading for chargelot/sentry and then colossi or HTs) might be a safer tech mix.
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2 of the players didn't really understand what to do with 1-1-1 and lost all their men and tanks attacking the P with 1 or 2 tanks. If a T wants to rush a P at that time, might as well go bio.
1-1-1 is more of defend and timing attack in midgame with a diverse unit composition or defend with tech and expand. It's not a rush with 2 tanks and 10 marines build. It's definitely easier to criticize than to perform but the approach these replays showed with 1-1-1 is not optimal at all.
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Im not too sure, but the way i see it this build is GREAT and only really vulnerable to marine/ghost pushes.
Here is something u can try>
Instead of building robo first try to build Stargate first and get that fast phoenix (while also savin up for robo and also have some early gateway units to defend) and with this ONE phoenix (so dont wait untill u have like 4) scout his base. there is no way he will know if its real phoenix or a halucination, and with this scout u can know if hes going marine/ghost combo. If he is then STOP building any units from robo, and also stop building any units from a stargate and focus on gateway unist and sentrys so u can block ur ramp untill colossi arrive. Have a practice partner and make him go marine/ghost combo and u do this and let us know pls how it went. ^^ gl.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
This just got raped by a marine/ghost/marauder push rofl. Not that I played well but the weaknesses are glaring. I'm going to have to do some thinking to come up with a viable transition since I don't think you can get colo's out in time with so much gas committed. I'll look into jinro's advice and try some stargate first action.
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Plexa did you scout with the first Pheonix?
I do this in a backwards way. I go 2/1(Stargate)/1(Robo).
Usually if I scout with a Pheonix they overproduce marines and die to zealot/sentry. If they don't attack I scout with the obs (Carefully in case of turrets) so I can respond to their composition. More stargate units if it is mech or air.
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I found a way. If ur doin protoss 2/1/1 its really important to skip early warpgate upgrade.
Here is the build u should try>
9 pylon
12 gate (scout)
13 gas
14 pylon
15 cyber core
16 zlot
17 pylon
21 or 22 stalker (to repel any early reaper)
when cyber finishes build one sentry and trow down second gas
build probes (no units) untill u have enough gas for a stargate
while stagate is building throw down second gateway and a pylon and a second sentry
keep pumping zlots from one gateway while second is building and only now start researching warpgate upgrade.
Build one phoenix and scout his entre base, while also lookin for proxies
when warpgate upgrade starts, now is safe to throw down robo.
2 senties with support from gateway units should be enough to stop any early marauder rushes (ur objective is not to engage him, just block ur ramp)
See what ur scout tells u, and is hes going more marauders than marines build one voidray and one immortal.
If he has all marines and just few marauders(1-2), dont engage in a fight, build more sentries, keep blocking ur ramp while waiting for a collosi and then push and while he is falling back throw down an expansion.
The strenght of this build is if he goes mostly marauders with a ghost, just build voidrays and immortal and crush him right there with the support of ur ground forces. If he goes marines/ghost u cant fight and u have to wait for colosi (keep blocking ur ramp with a forcefield) and then to push out from ur base but what u can do is while he is waiting fro u with marines and a ghost to enter ur base, keep pumping only senties and phoenix so u can continue to block ur ramp while in the same time harrasing him with phoenixes (for that u really need to be focused).
2/1/1 beats terran 1/1/1 easily so no explanation there how u should play.
banshee rush, easy... just all depends from ur first phoenix scout and u will see it coming.
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I feel that perhaps pumping an early VR instead of a phoenix first would be beneficial, as attacking him will allow you to see his army comp so you can check for ghosts. It let's you get a powerful harasser without destroying your tech line and will keep him in his base long enough for a collosi follow up or expand if you see bio play.
I think the versatility of this build is amazing and perhaps not utilising the ability to get only a single early VR has been overlooked thus far. Gonna try this build some more but seems like the new sliced bread atm
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 11 2010 16:46 Acidlineup wrote:
-- post abridged -- I think your points are really good. I'll give them a go the next time I get a chance. I think I had pretty much reached a similar conclusion to you today anyway
On July 11 2010 18:24 Zacsafus wrote:I feel that perhaps pumping an early VR instead of a phoenix first would be beneficial, as attacking him will allow you to see his army comp so you can check for ghosts. It let's you get a powerful harasser without destroying your tech line and will keep him in his base long enough for a collosi follow up or expand if you see bio play. I think the versatility of this build is amazing and perhaps not utilising the ability to get only a single early VR has been overlooked thus far. Gonna try this build some more but seems like the new sliced bread atm
I'm not so sure about the VR first. I think Phoenix is slightly better just for scouting purposes and the decreased cost allows you to get that robo up sooner. I think the VR build lends itself much more to a white-ra style of play which isn't necessarily bad, it's just not a 2/1/1.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 11 2010 09:45 nujgnoy wrote:
2 of the players didn't really understand what to do with 1-1-1 and lost all their men and tanks attacking the P with 1 or 2 tanks. If a T wants to rush a P at that time, might as well go bio.
1-1-1 is more of defend and timing attack in midgame with a diverse unit composition or defend with tech and expand. It's not a rush with 2 tanks and 10 marines build. It's definitely easier to criticize than to perform but the approach these replays showed with 1-1-1 is not optimal at all.
It's not a rush but a form of poking in, no different than a fd build. The inclusion of a phoenix commits my tanks to the initial battle but I will pull my tank back if I can.
I'm not sure how my game went (we played a lot of games on Friday) but I think I tried to go for a contain at his choke with vikings to spot the high-ground. Iirc plexa hit me just before my second tank arrived and managed to clean it up pretty well.
Sure, if P goes phoenix or heavy gateways then I will lose my push but I can save my tank in a lot of situations and do a lot of damage vs fe and dt. I disagree that its optimal to simply turtle until you hit critical mass of tanks. Maybe a better approach is to wait for 3 tanks and look for the phoenix but that might be too late for dt or fe, I don't know.
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I'm not so sure about the VR first. I think Phoenix is slightly better just for scouting purposes and the decreased cost allows you to get that robo up sooner. I think the VR build lends itself much more to a white-ra style of play which isn't necessarily bad, it's just not a 2/1/1.
Exactly. U go voidrays only if ur phoenix scout tells u hes goin heavy on marauders (and also ofcourse pump immos).
Whitera indeed does 2/1/1 only hes style is different. He goes voidrays mixed with dark templars. Thats even more gas heavy that 2/1/1 robo and more risky. Cloacked banshees and u die.
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Yeah perhaps phoenix may be better, i think its just me getting too carried away with how powerful VRs are lols
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I've done this build in PvP the last 2 months of phase 1. Worked less well since the Void Ray range nerf.
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this is a great opening, thanks for the post.
I'll post some replays when matchmaking decides to stop placing me against silver league players
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On July 11 2010 21:39 infinity21 wrote:
It's not a rush but a form of poking in, no different than a fd build. The inclusion of a phoenix commits my tanks to the initial battle but I will pull my tank back if I can.
I'm not sure how my game went (we played a lot of games on Friday) but I think I tried to go for a contain at his choke with vikings to spot the high-ground. Iirc plexa hit me just before my second tank arrived and managed to clean it up pretty well.
Sure, if P goes phoenix or heavy gateways then I will lose my push but I can save my tank in a lot of situations and do a lot of damage vs fe and dt. I disagree that its optimal to simply turtle until you hit critical mass of tanks. Maybe a better approach is to wait for 3 tanks and look for the phoenix but that might be too late for dt or fe, I don't know.
If you watch current korean progamer TvP,
1. Terran is SCREWED if he loses his tanks w/o killing almost twice as many goons. This forces him to either play completely defensive for the most of the game
2. FD can only work with the best of micro
3. FD is as viable as it is only because of mines.
4. FD needs to come asap with tanks and many number of marines
5. FD works against an expanding P, not really a 1 base P
In that rep,
1. In that rep, the terran traded 10+ marines, 1 viking, and 1 tank for pretty much no gas costing units. The Protoss lost his phoenix before the engagement even started when he used graviton beam too early. And STILL the T lost it cost inefficiently.
2. the tank was busy shooting the immortal the entire time
3. There is no mine to save the tank from protoss units
4. The terran not only made a late 2nd refinery which meant VERY late timing, he made a stargate. FD terrans poke around after Barracks-Factory, not Barracks-Factory-Factory (and certainly not after Barracks-Factory-Starport).
5. This P did NOT expand and instead went for a stargate and produced men
If the T waits until 3 tanks, the P's army would be relatively a LOT stronger. For ex, he can have 3 immos to match the tanks, or just more zealots and phoenix.
And maybe a terran player might feel a bit inactive maintaining a defensive posture, but if the t loses 2 tanks and 10+ marines to "poke around" the t is absolutely forced to be defensive. You threw down 2 bunkers iirc after the fight. Do you seriously think a terran who loses that much force (for doing so little damage) and is trying to stay alive by putting down bunkers can win a macro game against a protoss who now is sitting outside your ramp with a stargate for map control?
I'm not saying either of the 2 terran players were bad. I looked at their base, and their macro was decent while managing the battle. But in both cases the terran players were absolutely crushed. I'm not saying a T has to turtle all the game. I clearly said that one possible way to play 1-1-1 is to make a later timing rush when the T possesses a diverse unit mix. But these replays are not very promising executions of a bw style FD which should come after 1-1 and should not be delayed to put down a starport which only gives the P time to produce army.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I've been playing the stargate first variation for most of today against various people (nujgnoy especially) and I don't think it's solid. It's ridiculously vulnerable to marine/marauder pushes as it leaves you with virtually nothing to deal with it (not even blocking my ramp really helps). I'm not quite sold on whether this is a viable standard build just yet. I don't have time to post up replays from today, but I will get to that once I get back home !
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Stargate first is very solid against any terran opening if you get a void ray first. However, the problem is that making void rays will cause the terran to mass marines. Eventually, you'll need to get colossi or templar to deal with the larger bio mass that the terran develops, which, as you've noted, is the primary weakness with your build. With this in mind, I don't think that a protoss can or should swing a strict 2-1-1 build. I think the safer move is to use the void ray to buy time to expand and then tech to colossi (this is basically what all my PvT's look like now).
That said, I think you should still try to make it work. Assuming that you're still trying to build phoenixes and immortals with your 2-1-1 build, I think you should consider cutting one of those units out. They basically serve the same purpose in the early game: disabling/killing tanks or other terran mech. If you find some way to incorporate into your build the protoss units/tech that are better at killing masses of weaker units (like marines), I think you'll find that your build is more well-rounded and better at dealing with whatever the terran throws at you.
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I've done this build vs zerg in phase one... its actually nice opening, but you have to end it early. The voids take care of the ling / roaches, the zealot/sentry/stalker the lings... and the robo takes care of hydra or roach...
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 12 2010 12:57 xDaunt wrote:
Stargate first is very solid against any terran opening if you get a void ray first. However, the problem is that making void rays will cause the terran to mass marines. Eventually, you'll need to get colossi or templar to deal with the larger bio mass that the terran develops, which, as you've noted, is the primary weakness with your build. With this in mind, I don't think that a protoss can or should swing a strict 2-1-1 build. I think the safer move is to use the void ray to buy time to expand and then tech to colossi (this is basically what all my PvT's look like now).
That said, I think you should still try to make it work. Assuming that you're still trying to build phoenixes and immortals with your 2-1-1 build, I think you should consider cutting one of those units out. They basically serve the same purpose in the early game: disabling/killing tanks or other terran mech. If you find some way to incorporate into your build the protoss units/tech that are better at killing masses of weaker units (like marines), I think you'll find that your build is more well-rounded and better at dealing with whatever the terran throws at you. Everything you wrote is true. I found exactly that in my trials. The first phoenix is really really useless other than scouting information (which is awesome) but you can really only scout out things that you can't stop haha. The build really destroys mech Terrans though, unfortunately there are 2 other builds which are valid and don't involve mech. I can't really work out a way to get into a position where this is valid against the marauder based builds and the marine ghost based builds.
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On July 11 2010 09:13 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 09:12 Severedevil wrote:On July 11 2010 08:53 Plexa wrote:On July 11 2010 08:41 Severedevil wrote:
1) Why not go gate/robo/gate for faster Immortals?
The less time you give the opponent to pump marauders, the easier it should be to defend. (You could delay warp if you need, it's not a huge priority if you're only on two gateways and you're defending.) I'm getting the Robo pretty quickly, the 2nd gate doesn't really affect that much since it doesn't waste gas. You could definitely get the Robo faster. You could delay Warp. You could also delay your first Stalker (contingent on not being Reaper harassed, of course), or cut probes/delay chrono on probes to get the #2 gas started before the pylon. Unfortunately I can't test myself because I no longer have access to an SC2-capable computer... but you could certainly have Immortals out faster if you want them, which you might since they're what ends Marauder pressure. 2) Can you expand before adding the Stargate? Depends on the situation, I would suspect a quick marine/tank push would kill me. Really? I guess I've underestimated marine/tank pushes; I would think Zealot/Stalker/Immortal with a guardian shield would shut that down easily. Guardian shield works well against it but youre relying on the immortal to kill the tanks(they'll have emp most def) they'll emp it and shut it down then your army just melts to the tank fire However if you have charge most marine tank/ghost pushes will die pretty easily
emp theoretically nulls guardian, and theres no way you can support twilight council and charge and robo and stargate off 1 base
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this one is very good vs tank builds, good vs maradeur heavy build (rush is not a problem if you constantly use your 2 gates. And this is bad vs 3 rax marine heavy openings
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Almisael
Austria235 Posts
can anyone watch these replays? all i get is a black screen...
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i dislike being on even bases against t, seems like an ultra safe build against whats already been discussed but i can't see you going into the midgame with good econ. it's like an all-in defense lol
the stargate opening 2-1 with zeal-sentry constant and phx is how i keep him back and hold dedicated pushes as long as your scouting and being delicate with your phx. stargate -> expand -> your 2-1-1 seems perfectly fine to me
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EPT
