|
Baneling busts are fun, but I get few opportunities to practice it. I'd like the build fully explained by someone who masters it.
This is what I've understood: Feel free to correct me
If your opponent scouts the baneling nest it's obviously all over as they will make units instead of macroing/teching.
Baneling busts consist of making zerglings and banelings to bust down a wallin at natural or main, where the opponent thinks they're safe to tech and macro a 1-base play - usually resulting in stuff like fast void ray or banshee spam. It has be done quick and decisive, taking out many workers or key buildings (such as the precious tech he tried to achieve)
Baneling Bust build:
Scout early to see the wallin (I scout at 9)
14 spawning pool
16 build extractor and put 3 drones on it
16 then build queen
until ~30 spam zerglings, keep a few on the ramp to prevent scout
@100 gas zergling speed
@50 gas baneling nest, move lings to outside his main. Hide them if possible, try to time the movement with the completion of the nest.
@200min 200 gas Morph 8 banelings (how many is good for toss/terran?)
Move banelings in front to bust
Spam lings while doing this
profit
Some numbers to keep in mind
4 banelings > 1 supply depot
5 banelings > 1 pylon
4 banelings > 1 zealot
2 banelings > 1 marine
|
I probably would not waste time trying to work out a good BO for baneling busts as it is easy to scout and easy to counter for good players.
|
My ambition is to prove otherwise 
|
On May 23 2010 17:47 Hider wrote:
I probably would not waste time trying to work out a good BO for baneling busts as it is easy to scout and easy to counter for good players.
Wha? Have you ever played against a Z who baneling busted you early game? I mean if you play Terran, they might be easier to stop but for Protoss, it's devastating. They rape all the gateway units you have at the beginning, like the zealots that are guarding your ramp and then they can run lings in freely to harass the mineral line, either killing a lot of probes there or forcing you to pull them off, stopping your income.
Even if it's easy to scout, what will you do? Make more units? Banelings and zerglings will rip right through that. Banelings, IMO, needs a nerf. No friendly damage is pushing it, considering that it will wreck your opponent early game if micro'd appropriately.
|
I like bane-ling all-ins
I usually do
14 gas
14 pool
16 queen
and mass lings from then
when the pool is ready you will have 100+ minerals and 100 gas, tech ling speed
at 50 gas baneling nest
wait outside his base w your lings make your banelings near his base
its worse in macro than your build but faster lings/banelings
all-in!
|
Yes, I prefer macro-oriented builds you can lay back on. As you say, yours is more of an all-in, so it's playstyle preference I guess. Yours might be better in the end, as a sufficiently high tech from the opponent counters the bust (air units, tanks)
|
On May 23 2010 17:52 Tedder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 17:47 Hider wrote:
I probably would not waste time trying to work out a good BO for baneling busts as it is easy to scout and easy to counter for good players. Wha? Have you ever played against a Z who baneling busted you early game? I mean if you play Terran, they might be easier to stop but for Protoss, it's devastating. They rape all the gateway units you have at the beginning, like the zealots that are guarding your ramp and then they can run lings in freely to harass the mineral line, either killing a lot of probes there or forcing you to pull them off, stopping your income. Even if it's easy to scout, what will you do? Make more units? Banelings and zerglings will rip right through that. Banelings, IMO, needs a nerf. No friendly damage is pushing it, considering that it will wreck your opponent early game if micro'd appropriately.
Ok if you get bane bused by a zerg before you get a sent you deserve to lose. Drop a sent between the banelings as they move up ramp and FF them with stalker while taking no damage to zealots. If you do get 2 sents you can easily box the banelings with your FFs, focus them down and take zero casualties.
Banelings doing friendly damage? Have you seen how few hp lings have? You would essentially be spending 25/25 to blow up your own lings or cause the risk of a chain reaction in your blings where your entire bling army explodes randomly.
|
Banelings shouldn't do damage on death. Or at the very least, do half damage. Would fix a lot.
|
On May 23 2010 18:09 x8eikdls wrote:
Banelings shouldn't do damage on death. Or at the very least, do half damage. Would fix a lot.
Since i'm throwing 50 minerals and 25 gas on each explosion i'd like for it to do decent damage, thanks.
|
baneling bust does not work in ZvT if the terran opens with reactor hellions and has decent micro (whether they walled with 2 depot + rax or fact + rax). By the time the bust shows up I have at least 4 hellions (more if they go for the later version). Every time a Z goes baneling bust on me it's a free win because I can kill the lings and banelings with microed hellions, and even if they killed a few scvs or depots their economy is trash and I can win easily by transitioning into banshees. It's a very poor strategy for ZvT which will get you wins at lower levels but will stop working at a certain point.
|
Keep it on topic.
AcrossFiveJulys: There are counters to each build of course. The baneling bust only works if you don't scout it, which you obviously did. Would you say that it's effective versus protoss then?
|
EZ to counter as terran. Just dont wall in with supply depots vs z. Instead, rax at choke. Simply use 2 rax + 1 fac as a wall and he will be forced to make a large amount to bust. Use scvs to repare. Meanwhile, fast tech to banshees to rape him.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2010 18:04 Owarida wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 17:52 Tedder wrote:On May 23 2010 17:47 Hider wrote:
I probably would not waste time trying to work out a good BO for baneling busts as it is easy to scout and easy to counter for good players. Wha? Have you ever played against a Z who baneling busted you early game? I mean if you play Terran, they might be easier to stop but for Protoss, it's devastating. They rape all the gateway units you have at the beginning, like the zealots that are guarding your ramp and then they can run lings in freely to harass the mineral line, either killing a lot of probes there or forcing you to pull them off, stopping your income. Even if it's easy to scout, what will you do? Make more units? Banelings and zerglings will rip right through that. Banelings, IMO, needs a nerf. No friendly damage is pushing it, considering that it will wreck your opponent early game if micro'd appropriately. Ok if you get bane bused by a zerg before you get a sent you deserve to lose. Drop a sent between the banelings as they move up ramp and FF them with stalker while taking no damage to zealots. If you do get 2 sents you can easily box the banelings with your FFs, focus them down and take zero casualties. Banelings doing friendly damage? Have you seen how few hp lings have? You would essentially be spending 25/25 to blow up your own lings or cause the risk of a chain reaction in your blings where your entire bling army explodes randomly.
...Lets force field the ramp to delay the inevitable, is that what you're saying? Do you think that a zerg is just going to carelessly a-move them up the ramp and then go back to their base without paying the slightest attention to force fields? Once force field goes down, pull back. If you manage to box them in, great, but there will be a few that wouldn't get boxed and escape. Even if you were to kill off the ones that you have boxed, you're contained if the zerg then constantly pumps out lings and then techs to whatever the hell he/she wants.
Baneling openings are strong, do not underestimate that.
|
On May 23 2010 17:52 Tedder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 17:47 Hider wrote:
I probably would not waste time trying to work out a good BO for baneling busts as it is easy to scout and easy to counter for good players. Wha? Have you ever played against a Z who baneling busted you early game? I mean if you play Terran, they might be easier to stop but for Protoss, it's devastating. They rape all the gateway units you have at the beginning, like the zealots that are guarding your ramp and then they can run lings in freely to harass the mineral line, either killing a lot of probes there or forcing you to pull them off, stopping your income. Even if it's easy to scout, what will you do? Make more units? Banelings and zerglings will rip right through that. Banelings, IMO, needs a nerf. No friendly damage is pushing it, considering that it will wreck your opponent early game if micro'd appropriately.
Sentries easily counter ling/ling.
|
A well-done baneling bust is pretty deadly. As a toss it essentially forces you to cut back on your tech to get an early sentry. Otherwise the banelings kill the zels and the speedlings kill the stalkers + everything else
|
On May 23 2010 18:22 ayadew wrote:Keep it on topic. AcrossFiveJulys: There are counters to each build of course. The baneling bust only works if you don't scout it, which you obviously did. Would you say that it's effective versus protoss then?
It's not just a counter, but a hard counter that will win 99% of the time, and furthermore it's a fairly standard build. I mean can you imagine a ZvT opening in broodwar that has a chance of rolling over mech but always fails to bio openings? That's equivalent to baneling bust.
Actually most of the time I can't scout it because lings take out my probe well before the baneling next goes down and before I can detect any obvious signs (low drone count, no roach warren, no expo). So what happens is I encounter lings/banelings with my first two hellions that roll out (sometimes the hellions don't see them and I have to turn them around to defend my base).
I'm not sure about its effectiveness in ZvP but I haven't seen any pros do it.
|
Then, would you suggest canceling the baneling bust if you see a fast factory producing units (with overlord scout, perhaps sacrificing an early overlord just to see this?) and just go roaches as you have a lot of gas and good econ?
I still think speedlings is a good threat to hellions, it just comes down to micro perhaps.
|
If T goes early hellions and has decent micro, the baneling bust is screwed even if you manage to break down their wall. Thankfully most T players don't use hellions early on
|
As was said, if you intend on staying in Silver or Bronze your entire career than baneling busts are the way to go, but the moment you square off against competent players this strat as an opener is a failed one.
It puts you too far behind as far as your econ, and if it fails(which it will 6 or 7 times out of 10) at higher levels then the counter attack is going to crush you.
I won 90% of my games in silver against terran with this tactic but I've now completely gotten rid of it as my loss rate was at 90% when laddered up.
The magic number for this was 34 supply I found. You build out 17 drones max, of which you'll use 1 for the pool, 1 for the nest, 1 for the extractor and one for an early spine crawler to fight off reapers.
I would go 13 pool on this, 14 extractor, and not build the nest until after I started the speed upgrade at the pool.
AFter the pool is done you just crank out lings and attack when you get to 33 supply. 5 Banelings to bust down the wall and the rest to mop up the troops. If you wait for more lings they are able to build enough troops to fight you back 1/2 of the time, go sooner and you don't have enough to clean em up.
What I've found is that you need to take out the troops first.. Don't go straight for the SCV's as you split up your lings and will eventually get cleaned out. Even if you loose 80% of the lings taking out the rines or mauraders your macro should ensure another 8 lings arriving at the terran base within a matter of seconds after that wall comes down.
But again, as was said you are better off ditching this strat right now and practice the hell out of something else. This should only be used for fun against low level players because I mean let's face it, the baneling bust opener has gotta be one of the most fun ways to kill a terran. But the more you use this now, the less practice you will have on a viable strategy when you ladder up and that just means more losses that are going to be on your score until you perfect a viable gold and plat level opener.
|
On May 23 2010 21:00 EscPlan9 wrote:
If T goes early hellions and has decent micro, the baneling bust is screwed even if you manage to break down their wall. Thankfully most T players don't use hellions early on
you have like 1-2 hellions when beneling bust breaks your wall and its always followed by mass speedlings who own low numbers of hellions even if u have perfect micro
you wont be able to build more hellions because you are supply blocked
best way to prevent it is to never wall in with supply which is hard on some maps and very annoying because of the addon mechanics ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
