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Disclaimer: This information has been organized and researched by the Protoss players Huk and Whiplash (me duh) from vT Gaming. We're pretty good players  . This information is also designed for players that are at least platinum and of similar skill levels.
As of now PvP can be accurately described as a rock paper scissors match up. Each build has its own strengths and weaknesses, and each current mainstream build that is used in PvP will be displayed here. The builds will all be compared against each other, approximating which one will have the upper hand. The builds do not include very early builds such as 2 gate proxy or cannon rushes.
Here is a graph representing the PvP builds used as of now. Read left to top. Ex. 2-3 Gate Immortal is greater than or equal to going Blink Stalkers.
![[image loading]](http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9958/pvpgraph.jpg)
It just wouldn't be a TL post without a graph, now would it?
Mass Stalker Build:
Vs 4 Gate All-In: ( = )
Generally 4-5 gate will have the advantage earlier on, but as game progresses and mass Stalker blink kicks in the game will start to swing to mass Stalkers. Overall the match up is pretty even I think it comes down a lot to micro/positioning by both players. Either player can probably squeeze out some value with +1 attack upgrade. Mass Stalker is more fun to play though imo .
Vs Colossus : ( ≤ )
This can be a closer match up, a lot comes down to micro. If the Colossus player scouts mass Stalker or knows its coming then the smarter build would be to stay with Immortals. If The Colossus player already invested into Colossus though then stick to it. It comes down to micro really but with the ability to get an observer the Colossus player should bide his time until he can get a critical number of Colossus and move out. The Stalker player should try to atilla the hun (read: INSANE micro) micro vs Colossus player and maybe invest in a +1 forge upgrade and/or an expo. I would give a very slight advantage to the Colossus player.
Vs 2-3 Gate Immortal: ( ≤ )
This is a hard match up for mass Stalkers but a better micro player can pull it off. If you are in a good position map wise, you may be able to attack your opponents main before having to return to your own base. If you can do this and defend the subsequent counter-attack, you will most likely have gain the advantage. Once again the mass Stalker player might be able to sneak in a +1 for an advantage in the first major engagement. You want to dance your Stalkers around your opponent's army without committing to a large attack, which is exactly what your Immortal opponent will try to do.Nice force field/positioning after a mass blink can easily win the game for immortal player.
Vs Void Ray: ( > )
Not much to say here, blink Stalkers are the pure counter to Void Rays. As long as you don't seriously mess up something mass stalker should be ahead here every time
Vs Phoenix: ( > )
Although tougher then playing against Void Rays, mass Stalker should still come out ahead; maybe with a few Zealots and Sentries. With blink you can easily pick off Phoenixes without taking losses and generally with good micro you will beat the Phoenix player in a major engagement.
Vs Dark Templar Rush: ( < )
For obvious reason your not going to have detection, but with some smart play if u see the Dark Templar coming through little ripples on your screen you can hold it off with Sentry call-in/fast forge and force field blocks. You will still be behind though if you fend it off because Dark Templars give map control and an easy opportunity to expand.
4-5 Gate All-In Build:
Vs Colossus: ( < )
4-5 Gate obviously has a huge advantage early on, and huge disadvantage later on. At the higher levels your not going to be able to pull it off unless you hide it really really well, or its on a open map (Scrap Station ramp, Kulas Ravine choke, etc.) Generally if you don't do a good amount of damage within first 10-15 minutes you will slowly but surely fall behind unless you can manage to get an expansion up and pull off some great micro. The Colossus player will be looking to bide his time until he knows he can steamroll over his opponent's puny gateway army.
Vs 2-3 Gate Immortal: ( ≤ )
4-5 Gate will have the advantage early on, but slowly move to a disadvantage later on. It isn't as bad as facing Colossus, but it still is a similar situation. If you don't do damage early on your going to fall far behind, but like every PvP match up good force field and micro will win you the game anyways ^^ (LOL).
Vs Void Ray: ( > )
The 4-5 Gate will come out ahead here just because even if they wait for 2-3 Void Rays before showing up, your going have good early pressure and know SOMETHING is up. You can easily throw down 5 stalkers immediately in addition to the units you already have. After that just play smart and you should come out on top.
Vs Phoenix: ( > )
The game should play out the similar to fighting Void Rays. Most Phoenix builds have a decent number of gateway units added in but you should have more units then he does overall. As long as you don't make some major mistakes.
Vs Dark Templar: ( < )
For obvious reasons... like in mass Stalker vs Dark Templar if you can somehow manage to spot it or predict it, or see little ripples, you can survive. Your going to want to warp in Sentries asap and force field your choke until u can get cannons and observers but either way it seems like your going to be behind here.
Colossus Tech Build:
Vs 2-3 Gate Immortal: ( > )
You're going to have the edge here with higher tech vs a usually more passive/defensive player that for whatever reason thought you weren't going Colossus. Either way the Immortal player will probably want to transition to Colossus after making the mistake of opening with immortal, and will be slightly behind. The Colossus player would be smart to scout well and come out when range is upgraded; usually enabling a good timing window to end game.
Vs Void Ray: ( ≤ )
It sucks when you rush Colossus and Thermal Lances/ your first Colossus are about 1/2 way done when 2 void rays enter your base. At this point your behind and should look to transition into 3-4 Gate + Immortal (if you can). The Void Ray player needs to attack with a ground army and Void Rays, and try to win with early advantage if possible. If you do opt to stick with Colossus then you're going to be at a disadvantage just because your unit composition is going to be a lot harder to balance out then your opponent's.
Vs Phoenix: ( < )
Your going to be in a similar position as facing Void Rays except that now even if you transition to Immortals, they can be constantly liftoff/raped by phoenix's anyways. Your going to be very behind so basically do the same thing as you would against Void Rays and hope you can pull off some good micro or your opponent makes mistakes.
Vs Dark Templar: ( > )
With a Robotics you can easily get or already have an observer if they decide to Dark Templar rush you. Basically your looking at an attack-move win here.
2-3 Gate Immortal:
Vs Void Ray: ( ≥ )
This is a pretty close match up and I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me but I feel like the immortal player can easily transition here while the Stargate player is more locked to what he started. Generally the starting unit compositions are equal coming down to micro but I still will give the advantage here to Immortal player. Watch out if the Void Ray Protoss tries to transition into Phoenixes however.
Vs Phoenix: ( > )
Also pretty close, usually Void Ray/Phoenix builds are pretty similar vs others. I think Phoenix's are safer here but would get less "free wins" then Void Ray (also very true in PvZ). I would give the advantage to the Phoenix build, then Void Rays vs Immortals but its really close. The liftoff ability really kills Immortals because in most battles you're going to be able to always disable them or just target their anti-air, then clean up the rest later. 
Vs Dark Templar: ( > )
Observers + attack move = gg.
Void Ray Build:
Vs Phoenix: ( < )
Although i haven't tested it Phoenixes should come out here as the victor as long as proper micro takes place, but i would assume 1 if not both players would transition here (this is the key factor in why you never see this build happen). Either way it would be pretty interesting to see since no matter what charge Void Rays beat Phoenixes, but Phoenixes have a faster movement speed and can harass Probes. It could be extremely micro intensive.
Vs Dark Templar: ( ≤ )
This match up is the rarest/funniest IMO. Basically what it comes down to is HOPEFULLY if your the Void Ray player your going to scout the Dark Templar when u attack his main, and HOPEFULLY your going to know to sentry/cannon/robo. Even still, after all that your going to be a bit behind because if the Dark Templar player doesn't flat out kill you, he is going to have free map control and easy access to blink Stalkers, which means once you do come out your going to be against a mass gateway army with blink stalkers and an earlier expo.
Phoenix Build:
Vs Dark Templar: ( < )
Similar to Void Rays except it depends on how you play it. Some people who go Phoenix will hide it until they get 3-5, while others will scout with 1 asap to see whats up. If you scout with 1 and see the Dark Shrine your going to be ahead because you will have more then ample time to adjust accordingly. If you wait for 4-5 your finished because they are going to have Dark Templar in your base before you even move out.
Wow, that's a lot of data to sift through! Give us your thoughts and opinions!
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I hate Protoss but I approve of this thread
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Nice read, although the graph might suggest that its a rock-paper-scissors match up when it's really not. So to everyone, please do read the rest of the article.
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Very nice. Very useful. A lot of it is kinda common sense stuff for players with more experience in higher level PvP (like the DT stuff lol), but the insight is always nice to have. I personally didn't really know much about the counters for stargate builds as I don't see them pulled off very well that often. But ultimately, I think every PvP game really just comes down to which player can safely expo first and which player has better force field micro because force field > all.
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On May 12 2010 17:04 Nadagast wrote:
I hate Protoss but I approve of this thread
brilliant input there nancy
nice thread whiplash! Out of curiosity, how exactly do you properly micro blink mass stalker vs phoenix + gate rushes?
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On May 12 2010 17:18 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 17:04 Nadagast wrote:
I hate Protoss but I approve of this thread brilliant input there nancy nice thread whiplash! Out of curiosity, how exactly do you properly micro blink mass stalker vs phoenix + gate rushes?
Sorry, he made me reply :D
Plus this thread seems very useful (though I don't play P, it looks well thought out) so it deserves extra bumps
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I hate PvP because every second game people cheese you, so out of fear to be cheesed I started doing the same stupid strategies which leads to fast games where there is no real skill.
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Wow this is a goldmine of information on the mirror match. Thanks for compiling it!
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Helpful and interesting topic since I'm a protoss player!
But I'm a little curious as to why a colossus build is superior to a 4-5 warpgate all-in. I would think that the all-in build would scout the hard tech and attack accordingly. A heavy zealot/sentry with some good FFs would ripe through the 1-2 colossus of the player wouldn't it?
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Is Forge FE a viable build at the top, or is it just something I manage to do due to luck?
I dont know about the top level, but I can hold FFE in most cases in mid gold.
If it is, I would like to know how it match up against those opening as well.
Good thread btw.
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On May 12 2010 17:55 mkfk1 wrote:
Is Forge FE a viable build at the top, or is it just something I manage to do due to luck?
I dont know about the top level, but I can hold FFE in most cases in mid gold.
If it is, I would like to know how it match up against those opening as well.
Good thread btw.
Any toss that sees FE will either rush void rays or counter expo and have faster tech due to going gates before forge.
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Pretty interesting read, thanks for the effort!
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wow, very impressive. Do you have replays to put everything into context? How many games of each match up did you guys play? All tests done post patch 11? Thanks for the post btw.
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On May 12 2010 18:14 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 17:55 mkfk1 wrote:
Is Forge FE a viable build at the top, or is it just something I manage to do due to luck?
I dont know about the top level, but I can hold FFE in most cases in mid gold.
If it is, I would like to know how it match up against those opening as well.
Good thread btw. Any toss that sees FE will either rush void rays or counter expo and have faster tech due to going gates before forge.
I admit to the faster tec.
But void ray rush doesnt beat forge FE. Unless void rush at higher level are much more faster than gold.
I wonder about this, because the eco advantage do translate to slightly more tier 1.5 units. At the 5 minute mark. And at the 3-5 minute mark, the early unit advantage is dealt with strategic placement of cannons. Admittedly, this only works on maps that a close to natural with 1 entry to main. But so far, for me atleast is a fairly stable opening.
And no, I would not not recommend FE if the first scout see 2 gate or more with no gas.
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Yeah, once in a while you run into people who just make gates and rally zealots into your base. Losing to that is embarrassing. Otherwise nice guide, though I would vote for 2gate robo as probably the safest opening, because you are going to have enough sentries to block your choke and can make units on demand to counter their build.
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I think the safest build is 3 gate blink since it isn't really weak to anything if you get a forge and 1-2 cannons in case of DT. However, you have to transition fast because robo builds will eventually eat you alive.
Anyways, this is a fantastic guide and whiplash and huk are amazing players so you'd best be listening to them. I do think that PvP is the most counter-heavy matchup right now, especially because of the specialization of units. It's not necessarily a bad thing if people eventually gravitate to safe play, but right now it's very very cheese heavy because people just do a high risk build like proxy voidray and hope it works.
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Awesome guide! Now if we could tag VODs of each example to each matchup (I am sure some has already been played) that will be even more uber awesome...!
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Great post, thanks for taking the time to write this!
So, here's my question:
I usually open with 2-3 gate Immortals cause I find it to be safest build overall, giving you a fast obs, being able to hold off blink builds and 4 gate rushes and I think it's generally a nice and flexible build that suits my playstyle ( opening safe and out expanding the opponent).
So of course my big problem is against fast colossi. Whenever i scout it I usually just try to hit the timing where he just has one Colossus out and no range so I can snipe it with the two or three Immortals I have but if he holds it off I find my self (obviously) so much behind.
From the point of view of the player that went immortals how would you transition against fast Colossi? Is this generally a bo auto loss?
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Russian Federation60 Posts
I cheesed my way through PvP since day one. I only lost twice or thrice to super early 3 gate zealot all-ins and early proxy all-ins.
My strat is basically delayed warp all-in. I go for a very fast warpgate upgrade and chronoboost it to the max. Then stop producing probes when I feel that I have enough to support constant production from 4 gates (don't know the exact number). Then gradually add more gates and build zealots + sentries and place some ninja pylons around my opponent's base. It is a good idea to move out when your warpgates are up, though waiting a bit doesn't hurt. Then ctrl-a to the win. The key is obviously good force field micro.
I play mid-low plat and high gold. I hear at high plat such strat gets denied by early colossi though.
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I think 4-5 warpgate should be >/< immo/collosi depending on the map tbh. oh maps where you can forcefield yourself in off of 1-2 sentries to buy time for immo/collosi, it is definitely the case of immo/collosi > warpgate rush, but in my experiance on maps like kulas, blistering and scrap where the ramp is wide open and huge, it's ridiculously hard to stop zealot sentry warpgate pushes with robo tech unless you've somehow scouted it early enough and produced a TON of sentries.
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Based on this Robo would be the best blind choice every time.
Personally I think a 4 gate early push and expand has a HUGE advantage over a 2-3 gate immortal build. Generally there will only be 1-2 immortals, ~8 stalkers/zealots/sentries vs my 18-20 gateway group. If he holds off your initial push, tech charge and go zealot heavy to take out the immortals.
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On May 12 2010 20:27 DamageInq wrote:
Based on this Robo would be the best blind choice every time.
well, yeah, but thats assuming that everyone you play against has an equal chance to do one of the 5 or 6 builds they listed here, which is not the case, since robo counters the most, it is therefor the most commonly used, making the build that specifically counters this much more viable than if everyone you played against was rolling a dice on which build to go... Then you get into the situation of "well, he thinks imma go collosi, and go voidray, so i should go blink stalker" then the other person levels you by actually going robo and immo's instead etc. etc. Hence why a lot of people believe the idea of mirror MUs to be rock paper scissors(Not saying I do, just its obvious where it comes from ;P).
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On May 12 2010 20:27 DamageInq wrote:
Based on this Robo would be the best blind choice every time.
I think it's moreso that "Robo build would be the best choice MOST of the time", with the other builds thrown in to vary your play and prevent the opponent to simply counter a Robo build.
Not that I play P or anything. Just wanted this particular statement.
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A lot of the matchups are heavily dependent on the map.. I mean if you wanna go collo on scrap or blistering you're in for a nightmare against a 4 gater. But on Steppes it's a lot easier.
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4-5 warpgate is not nearly as all-in in PvP because the other protoss will not have expanded either. It's more all-in vs. zerg and FE-terran because if you lose your army in the push, you're way behind.
That said, I agree with the other posters that 4-5 warpgate should crush 3gate immortal. You're heavy on zealot/sentry, making his immortals worthless, and then you go into infinite forcefield on his ramp (or straight up kill him if there's no ramp to split your troops) while you expo and tech to colossus.
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Pretty useless chart to be honest, it implies that the tech builds such as the colossus build or blink stalkers do this without any scouting. Scouting is generally quite easy early on in PvP as there is no way to kill the probe before the first stalker arrives, for example a fast voidray build can generally be scouted quite well and thus the colossus build can adapt by simply not making the support bay...
Also all these builds are 1 base apparently, is there any reason why a decently fast expansion (say 25 population) with some cannons is impossible? Blink stalkers and colossi don't care much about a cannon defense but 4 gate for example does.
Going by this chart colossi build seems best as long as you scout that your opponent didn't go stargate. I actually agree with this, so regardless of the method I do agree with the outcome.
Personally I think PvP on most maps is just about who has the most colossi, especially since the sentry nerf, you just have to reach that point safely which is difficult as the initial investment of robo and support bay is quite big. Scouting and determining when to make your robo and support bay is key to understanding this matchup but as long as you can defend while starting the colossus' race first you have a big advantage.
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I don't understand why colos is so strong vs immortal builds. I feel like until the colos opener has atleast 3 colos and range upgrade the immortal opener has a big window to either end game (depending on map) or expo and make more gates, then being able to pick his battles in middle and flank the colos army or in some way minimize colos splash. Does the timing not work out this way at all? My experience in pvp is that unless the immortal opener does something retarded like attack into your nat he's going to be ahead in unit count, have a faster expo, and have map control.
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therefore according to your graph, PvP we should always go blink stalkers? your graph shows that Blink Stalkers is the way to go, it is not inferior to anything (its inferior or equal to collosi, etc)
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
Almost all builds in pvp are extremely timing dependant. You've mostly decided which build is better as if these were lategame unit composition choices which is extremely flawed.This is especially true since pvps rarely get past the early game.
For example you put 4-5 gate all-in as ≤ 2-3 gate immortal and in the description you say that 4-5gate allin is ahead early on then falls behind. The 4-5gate all-in is as you've allready described in the name of the build *an all-in*. this is like saying going fast dt drop in pvt puts you behind *insert random build* the times you dont do any damage, well duh.
Another example, you put dark templar rush ahead of 2-4gate mass blink stalker. The player going stalker isnt going to have detection but you're playing a hyper aggressive build getting a lot of units early on versus a tech build. Unless the player teching dt's outplay his opponent in someway he's not going to survive to get dts or if he does he wont without taking damage and/or his tech being scouted before it's finished.
Then there's also map considerations, like mass blink stalker as well as mass zeal/sentry are much stronger on blistering sands than on other maps. Adding the fact that a good player can adapt his build based on what he scouts claiming that pvp is like rock paper scissor is just as misguided a description in sc2 as it was in bw.
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and i thought PvP was just proxy zealot wars =X
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This is really awesome but I have to say that a lot of this varies on a map per map basis (blink stalkers are far more effective on Kulas Ravine, etc).
I think the best transition out of an immortal opening once you scout an enemy's 4 warpgate build is to throw down a stargate. When they see immortals they're likely to stop building stalkers, at which point you hit their mostly zealot/sentry composition with void rays/phoenixes along with the rest of your gateway army and hopefully come out ahead.
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sorry i figured ppl reading would use common sense, idiots
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On May 12 2010 17:06 NzaR wrote:
Nice read, although the graph might suggest that its a rock-paper-scissors match up when it's really not. So to everyone, please do read the rest of the article.
suggest? The OP outright says that it is a rock-paper-scissors matchup:
On May 12 2010 16:24 Whiplash wrote:
As of now PvP can be accurately described as a rock paper scissors match up.
btw you can probably condense the chart to:
-robo-builds
-warpgate builds
-stargate builds
-templar build
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amazing chart youve done there, i wish someone could do something similar for all mu's
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8748 Posts
In my experience, if you scout with your first Phoenix, you can still win against the builds that Phoenix are good against, but you can also survive the builds that Phoenix would lose against. I would change Phoenix build to being equal to Blink and DT. Phoenix might be > than DT actually because the DT player will have barely any gas to get anti-air but the Phoenix player will get detection in time to defend against DT's. I think 4 warpgate is still > Phoenix, though I'm hoping the Sentry change will shift that a little bit.
I think Warpgate/Robotics builds that don't go Colossi can come out ahead of Colossi builds by expanding faster and then going Phoenix.
I think DT builds can often do better than you think against builds that get Observers. Usually, a Robotics player gets only one Observer and by the time he sees his opponent going DT's, the DT's are at this base. Then the Observer has to fly all the way back and that time period can really hurt. After the DT tech, the DT player can play 4-5 Warpgate without having to worry about anti-air or detection.
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Wow very nice post, gives me things to work upon but my own feeling of the matchup Thank you
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On May 12 2010 23:34 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I think DT builds can often do better than you think against builds that get Observers. Usually, a Robotics player gets only one Observer and by the time he sees his opponent going DT's, the DT's are at this base. Then the Observer has to fly all the way back and that time period can really hurt. After the DT tech, the DT player can play 4-5 Warpgate without having to worry about anti-air or detection.
Very true. You can rack up quite a number of kills if the defending player doesn't have multiple observers/cannons. In addition you can still pin him in his base long enough to transition.
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I just played a game where I saw the other protoss going for a 2 gate push with zeals. I countered it with stalkers and then he went mass void ray......... easy win tbh
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I don't think getting colossi before expanding is viable at all. Without the support of a lot of gateway units they're very easy to snipe, be it with blink stalkers, immortals, immortals in a warp prism, voidrays or phoenixes. Expanding with this build isn't advisable as you have to wait for the range upgrade to complete while the opponent can take a much faster expansion and get a huge macro lead.
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Awesome! It's just really sad that I couldn't see any of these builds due to earl 2gate rush 
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Love the chart - any chance you could post a general BO for each build? I'd like to test out some of these matchups myself =)
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i just wana add in that you should mention about aggressive early game and the timing for being aggressive early that will pay off (b4 the wrap tech kick in)...
also u forgot to mention wrap rush with shuttle (forgot the name at the moment) where u make lot of sentries to protect when u make wrap gates and stuck in resources so that you can wrap a giant army into ur opt base in early mid game (this is rare but i saw some mid-level platnium players pulled it off)
moreover, sentries with force field lock opt while u FE and lastly, the HT in late-mid game
i also want to have more advices for the upgrades and stuff but ye, xD
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Thanks for the pretty useful info. Although I'm still not totally on board with the mass Phoenix builds.
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Nice chart. Thank you Huk and Whiplash.
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Building a mid-game Photon Cannon at your choke will literally negate any kind of DT rush and I think that's going to become a standard, eventually. People rushing for any kind of tech outside of a Robo Fac would be wise to invest some minerals in doing that.
Phoenix rushes can also get stomped by
I'm thinking the strongest build is 2-Gate Zealot pressure into Cannoning your front door into Void Ray harass, expand, cannon your choke and min lines a bit, build another Starport and then pump Carriers. No, really. Carriers are frightening as fuck when you get like 4+. Focus-fire all Stalkers and Void Rays and the game is yours.
Your opponent will have to react to 2-Gate Zealot pressure by building their own, halting their tech, which will then probably be followed by lots of gas spent on Sentries to ensure a clear victory over your Zealots. Void Ray harass will then become a big pain in the ass and cause production of more Stalkers, which you can quite easily steamroll if you camp for a bit and pump out Carriers from 2 bases, all because its tough to take on Photon Cannons + defenders without Collossi. They'll have to sit on their laurels camping because of your harass, and teching to confront your Photon Cannons, giving you a lot of time to get Carriers going.
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On May 13 2010 02:39 Bibdy wrote:
Building a mid-game Photon Cannon at your choke will literally negate any kind of DT rush and I think that's going to become a standard, eventually. People rushing for any kind of tech outside of a Robo Fac would be wise to invest some minerals in doing that.
Phoenix rushes can also get stomped by
I'm thinking the strongest build is 2-Gate Zealot pressure into Cannoning your front door into Void Ray harass, expand, cannon your choke and min lines a bit, build another Starport and then pump Carriers. No, really. Carriers are frightening as fuck when you get like 4+. Focus-fire all Stalkers and Void Rays and the game is yours.
Your opponent will have to react to 2-Gate Zealot pressure by building their own, halting their tech, which will then probably be followed by lots of gas spent on Sentries to ensure a clear victory over your Zealots. Void Ray harass will then become a big pain in the ass and cause production of more Stalkers, which you can quite easily steamroll if you camp for a bit and pump out Carriers from 2 bases, all because its tough to take on Photon Cannons + defenders without Collossi.
Carriers are garbage PvP. Blink stalkers, voidrays, sentry shield - all these things dominate carriers. You're better off massing voidrays with speed and getting a mothership or something. Carriers are a really good way to lose.
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Not from what I've seen. 1 or 2 suck. But 4+ is fucking insane. They tear up Stalkers and Void Rays very quick, and when you run out, its over.
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On May 13 2010 02:43 Bibdy wrote:
Not from what I've seen. 1 or 2 suck. But 4+ is fucking insane. They tear up Stalkers and Void Rays very quick, and when you run out, its over.
You will never get 4+ carriers in the first place without being completely cripple in the higher levels of play. PvP as it is now is pretty much completely dependent on the first few minutes of the game. Whenever I scout someone throwing down cannons at their choke I just expo or mass up an even greater army/tech. I just don't see carriers being all that useful.
Also, just having a cannon at your choke won't stop DTs. Warp prisms can provide an endless supply of DTs into your base, especially if you get the speed upgrade for them. It's pretty easy for them to just find a random location to power up, throw down 1-2 DTs and fly away. Then come back a couple minutes later and repeat. Even if the DT player forces you to throw up a ring of cannons, that's an advantage for that player anyways.
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One suggestion?
Perhaps link each "build" could have a hyperlink to a build order/strat? Being a terrible player, this would make this topic even MORE awesome than it already is.
In response to anyone that may say "lol use the search function, noob". Since these players are defining the Build, their exact defnition of the build may differ from something I find using search.
Example
The Awesome Build
etc etc.
vs. Not so awesome Build (> )
blah blah blah
Vs. cheezerush build (</=)
blah blah blah
vs. anything Ragnar4 does. (>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> )
Blah blah blah he sucks blah blah blah.
Anything Ragnar4 Does
vs. Not So Awesome Build (<<<<< )
blah blah blah
vs. Cheese Rush Build (<<< )
blah blah blah
vs The Awesome Build (<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< )
blah blah lol blah.
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Man I need this lol... its hard to say this stuff for sure cuz it so heavily depends on the map though... void rays are insanely good on maps like desert oasis, where the gas is right on the edge of a cliff (pick off the gas and then go hide in a corner, rinse and repeat) but suck hardcore on maps like scrap station or lost temple. The ramp issue plays a big role as well - this all needs to be looked at more indepth, since the liquipedia has next to nothing on this matchup :S.
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On May 13 2010 03:06 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 02:43 Bibdy wrote:
Not from what I've seen. 1 or 2 suck. But 4+ is fucking insane. They tear up Stalkers and Void Rays very quick, and when you run out, its over. You will never get 4+ carriers in the first place without being completely cripple in the higher levels of play. PvP as it is now is pretty much completely dependent on the first few minutes of the game. Whenever I scout someone throwing down cannons at their choke I just expo or mass up an even greater army/tech. I just don't see carriers being all that useful. Also, just having a cannon at your choke won't stop DTs. Warp prisms can provide an endless supply of DTs into your base, especially if you get the speed upgrade for them. It's pretty easy for them to just find a random location to power up, throw down 1-2 DTs and fly away. Then come back a couple minutes later and repeat. Even if the DT player forces you to throw up a ring of cannons, that's an advantage for that player anyways.
It'll stop a DT rush, which is the main strat Whiplash described in the OP. You obviously don't rely on it forever. Nobody in their right mind rushes for VRs, Phoenixes or DTs and then never follow up with an Observer at some later stage. 1 Cannon is all you need to stop the DT rush and at that point you negate their ability to be a game-ending unit. They'll have to build a proper army to beat you.
In other words, if you're going to rush VRs, just build 1 Cannon and you negate one of the strats that would otherwise beat you. Now there's only 2 strats in that list that can beat you. Not 3. That goes for any of the builds, which is why I think it'll become standard play for everything at some point.
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Is there any reason to do a VR rush? Based on the chart and explanations in the thread, it seems like a phoenix are on even footing or better than a VR rush. Are there any situations where a VR rush is better than a phoenix rush in PvP?
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I don't know about that stalker with blink<dt, why not just proxy a robotics and blink in to his main to snipe the nexus? Takes some blink and micro to not lose your stalkers while you're killing his nexus, but he will have committed most of his dt to the offensive so that should make things a little easier. then both of you can't mine while you get an obs, hell, if you have the money you could even proxy 2 robos, to make damn sure you get an obs out, or just make a lot of pylons around the single proxy, once you get that obs out though he can't win if you've kept a decent amount of stalkers around, as stalker with blink and obs just owns dt. also, it would be sweet to put that proxy robo in a place with least amount of open ground around it, like against a wall, or up in one of those watchtower places on blistering, so that way you can surround it fully with only a couple pylons, meaning he will have to hack through them in order to get to the juicy robo, and also enough that he can't just pull the plug on it.
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post on liquipedia imo ^^
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Huk, what do you think of PvP? i hate the rock paper scissors dynamic, so much that I'm almost going to switch races. it seems stupid of a matchup for the safe build vs stargate tech is completely countered by robo tech.
I hate build order losses; i try to play "safetoss," but it looks like theres no safetoss build.
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You'd really rather play ZvZ or TvT for excitement? Have fun with that.
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Where does 3 warp + forge expand fall into this chart?
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The graph is really helpful! Thanks!
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Thanks for this. I seem to only get void ray rushers in PvP, so I've always just massed stalkers. Gonna try some of these other strats out.
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Can you guys do a section on 2-3 gate Immortal versus 4-5 gate? You said it's better in the midgame, but I can never make it that far if I face 4-5 gate. A majority of my opponents always do that and it basically forces to do so as well.
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On May 13 2010 14:13 Chaoz wrote:
Can you guys do a section on 2-3 gate Immortal versus 4-5 gate? You said it's better in the midgame, but I can never make it that far if I face 4-5 gate. A majority of my opponents always do that and it basically forces to do so as well.
Exactly. How am I supposed to get immortals with 2 gates if my opponents has 4 gates. The other player just pressures with mass zealots.
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The main problem with all tech builds is that to hold off a (potential) 4 gate opponent: you have to give up map control because the only defensible position is your main ramp. Then your opponent can expand with impunity and even catch up to you in tech. Thus in midgame you are not facing a 1 base/4 gate opponent with you 1 base/2-3 gate + robo, but a 2 base/6-8 gate + 1-2 robo. There is of course a small timing window as the expansion goes up, but the production capacity of 4 warpgates makes defending quite easy.
Another big problem is the map pool, which as of now favors early aggression with small distances (at least compared to the high mobility of the armies, also proxy- and warpgates make reinforcements arrive at almost the same time for both sides), hard to defend natural expansions (there are no really small chokes and no ramps for naturals!) and open third expansions. Most BW maps used nowadays favor macro builds because they have been designed on opposite lines than Blizzards current SC2 beta maps.
This, I think however, is a conceptual difference between the Korean and Blizzard's mapmakers. blizz seems to want quick, fast paced and action packed games, while the Korean BW style turned towards longer (20-40 minutes or even longer) matches - I imagine because a big BO5 match that is done in 50 minutes is lackluster compared to the same BO5 played over, lets say 3 hours with lots of show (and advertising).
Anyway, as long as we have to play on these maps, I think the most robust play style is a strong opening to develop map control then take an expansion, while teching comes last. The success of any FE or quick tech depends on the willingness of your opponent to leave you alone and not prepare for your next move.
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Great work, thanks Whiplash & HuK.
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Great article, I like going 2-3 gate immortal and adapting upon scout into either Colossus or phoenixes.
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Gogogogo - do the same for PvT and PvZ (half-joke) Awesome write-up
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Relik the "main problem" is that you can't make a nexus. There is a big enough window to roll over the person expanding.
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I would question your logic that phoenix rush < DT rush. Phoenix's come out incredibly early when rushing for them and they are of course excellent scout units, one would assume also that you'll be in the opponents base harrasing with your phoenix anyway so it seems quite a challenge to NOT spot the dark shrine going up and respond accordingly (with its HUUUUGE build timesez >.<)
Edit: just read your explanation and okay fair point but assuming your Cboosting the phoenixes I think you would still have by far enough response time when you move out with your 5 phoenix (Remember even if you are late on the detection, if you are still on 1 base you can easily defend against dark templar by using spotter probes to block your pylon and being quick with forcefields.
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On May 12 2010 17:50 Teebagger wrote:
Helpful and interesting topic since I'm a protoss player!
But I'm a little curious as to why a colossus build is superior to a 4-5 warpgate all-in. I would think that the all-in build would scout the hard tech and attack accordingly. A heavy zealot/sentry with some good FFs would ripe through the 1-2 colossus of the player wouldn't it?
As the collosi player you will be the defendor (and thus obviously have superior positioning) and whilst defending on one base you only need the one forcefield, theres really no way to get your collosi surrounded unless your half asleep, and with the range upgrade the leeway on positioning is just so much in your favor, if this build encounter had a fight out in the open ~ 2 collosi it could be a different story.
edit: apologies double post =[
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Haha this graph is awesome. I actually went through the graph and it's correct from my experience as a protoss player.
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I like how all the analysis is on one base all in builds. This is a nice analysis of which ones do better. Obviously you can try to transition out of these later for an expansion but meh.
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This match up is the rarest/funniest IMO
Oh yes. I remember a game when we raised each other bases with rays and darks and the one to raise more quickly won.
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4 gate >> colossus i think. just use sentries...
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hmm, since the most common way i've seen people try to counter the pheonix build is by massing stalkers, whenever i do it, instead of adding a third gateway, i usually add a robo, gives me obs in time to stop dt's without having to give away my stargate tech too early, and the imortals really do help against the mass stalkers with my zealots, does mean i have a couple less sentries than would be ideal, but i can usually target theirs with my pheonix anyway so i come out ahead in forcefields, i usually do quite well with this build,
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I'd make an argument for Forge FE, at LEAST on Lost Temple. I realize that proper counters aren't that hard to do, and the other player should be ahead in minerals and tech, but if you're confident in your macro, it's possible to pull it off. I manage to win with this fairly often as a rank ~32 plat.
Mostly, if timed correctly, and if it also catches the opposite player off-guard, then it should deal with 4gate, and I've won against 2gate robo as well.
Though, proper gameplay from the opponent will probably able to beat fast forge, because of the extra minerals and tech. I just think it's an option, if done correctly, to catch your opponent off guard, and hopefully take advantage of the confusion. A lot of players (who admittedly, might not be the best) try to do a push in response to fast forge, and end up losing because I'm able to muster up probes at two bases instead of just one, where I usually proceed to a 5gate build with mass blink stalkers.
OTHER THAN THAT, I really like this thread, thanks for the info.
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What was the build you and HuK used for the "Dark Templar Rush", I'm extremely curious; or is it just some sort of DT harassment? And if so, then the dt rush really shouldn't be charted! It's kind of misleading~ :3
peace & love
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On May 18 2010 05:16 OldSkuLL wrote:
4 gate >> colossus i think. just use sentries...
For... guardian shield? Hallucination?
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wow, good job on digging this thread up!
this really need a HUGE update on new build like forge FE and wrap rush KR style =))
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Heh yeah some stuff have changed since may as far as this guide goes. I'll talk to huk and see if we can make an updated version some time in the future.
edit: Huk isnt interested so nope
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On August 07 2010 01:47 Whiplash wrote:
Heh yeah some stuff have changed since may as far as this guide goes. I'll talk to huk and see if we can make an updated version some time in the future.
edit: Huk isnt interested so nope
dude, contact plexa and antimage, else me :D... lots of people want to hear pros' opinion on mirror MU atm.
simply bc they are mostly retarded except TvT
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I doubt HuK wants to give away his secrets . Also, PvP is a lot more complicated than any chart like this could explain.
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I dunno about you guys but I've died enough to 1 base colo builds even though i take the upper hand in the beginning. I've started going for the 1 base colo every game now and my win rate has skyrocketed.
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take my advice with a grain of salt as i'm only a random top diamond player, in by no means a stacked division, but 1 base colo is really strong i think. even if they pump immortal to counter the colo, your defensive concave + FF will let you buy enough time to pump out the necessary zealots to counter the immortal production. when i see someone going immortals after my colo tech, i make sure i add enough warpgates to have 4 that i can use to pump out any additional zealots i need, as they're just really cost effective vs immortal. stalkers can kite zealot balls, but you can minimize that with colossus range and micro etc.
so by preventing a rush with immortal/stalker, if he tries to expand, then you should be able to timing attack, perhaps with the ability to throw down a twilight council and get charge lots to ensure that he cannot kite your forces but that depends partly on the map or when these different developments occur. if he doesn't expand too early, then i think you'll be able to expand yourself pretty freely with critical number of collosi.
could be wrong about all that, but it's helped me win games i really felt unsure about @_@
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On August 07 2010 04:00 FreeZEternal wrote:
I dunno about you guys but I've died enough to 1 base colo builds even though i take the upper hand in the beginning. I've started going for the 1 base colo every game now and my win rate has skyrocketed.
on maps with chokes i really think 1base collo is where it's at
but if there isn't choke u can beat it by expanding first and massive flank with stalkers and immortals in front
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Where's mothership rush?!
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On August 07 2010 07:36 kyarisan wrote:
take my advice with a grain of salt as i'm only a random top diamond player, in by no means a stacked division, but 1 base colo is really strong i think. even if they pump immortal to counter the colo, your defensive concave + FF will let you buy enough time to pump out the necessary zealots to counter the immortal production. when i see someone going immortals after my colo tech, i make sure i add enough warpgates to have 4 that i can use to pump out any additional zealots i need, as they're just really cost effective vs immortal. stalkers can kite zealot balls, but you can minimize that with colossus range and micro etc.
so by preventing a rush with immortal/stalker, if he tries to expand, then you should be able to timing attack, perhaps with the ability to throw down a twilight council and get charge lots to ensure that he cannot kite your forces but that depends partly on the map or when these different developments occur. if he doesn't expand too early, then i think you'll be able to expand yourself pretty freely with critical number of collosi.
could be wrong about all that, but it's helped me win games i really felt unsure about @_@
thanks to you guys, my "counter 1 base collosi" build is winning like sky rockets =D
seriously, are you all THAT naive? =))
PvP, seeing a guy going robo and turtle up is way too easy to counter, 3 gate blink rush with robo or 2 gate FE are both crush colossi hard. not to mention the chrono by expan is double which make you macro much faster. if you try to push early with 2 colossi, 2 group control basicly crush you FAST. if you try to get 4 or 5 colossi, its basicly an all-in build since you pretty much broke. 1 wrap prism harras while you moving out will shut the deal consider how imobility the army is.
+ Show Spoiler +
^You have the right to consider the fact that the above paragraph i made it up. But the fact that im winning vs 1 base colossi is totally true =)
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Does this PvP chart still moderately apply to the recent patches?
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On August 07 2010 08:15 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 07:36 kyarisan wrote:
take my advice with a grain of salt as i'm only a random top diamond player, in by no means a stacked division, but 1 base colo is really strong i think. even if they pump immortal to counter the colo, your defensive concave + FF will let you buy enough time to pump out the necessary zealots to counter the immortal production. when i see someone going immortals after my colo tech, i make sure i add enough warpgates to have 4 that i can use to pump out any additional zealots i need, as they're just really cost effective vs immortal. stalkers can kite zealot balls, but you can minimize that with colossus range and micro etc.
so by preventing a rush with immortal/stalker, if he tries to expand, then you should be able to timing attack, perhaps with the ability to throw down a twilight council and get charge lots to ensure that he cannot kite your forces but that depends partly on the map or when these different developments occur. if he doesn't expand too early, then i think you'll be able to expand yourself pretty freely with critical number of collosi.
could be wrong about all that, but it's helped me win games i really felt unsure about @_@ thanks to you guys, my "counter 1 base collosi" build is winning like sky rockets =D seriously, are you all THAT naive? =)) PvP, seeing a guy going robo and turtle up is way too easy to counter, 3 gate blink rush with robo or 2 gate FE are both crush colossi hard. not to mention the chrono by expan is double which make you macro much faster. if you try to push early with 2 colossi, 2 group control basicly crush you FAST. if you try to get 4 or 5 colossi, its basicly an all-in build since you pretty much broke. 1 wrap prism harras while you moving out will shut the deal consider how imobility the army is. + Show Spoiler +
^You have the right to consider the fact that the above paragraph i made it up. But the fact that im winning vs 1 base colossi is totally true =)
a flaw in your logic is that i'm not getting colossi because i want to turtle up on one base, just that i want a fast colossus so i can have a significant advantage in my unit composition. the post i made above yours was a response to heavy immortal play prior to an expand. if i don't see immortals, then all i do is
a) scout scout scout, look for expands, twilight, stargate (if twilight, look for fast archives or shrine while observing enemy army size)
b) match gateway count
c) expand after critical mass of colossi
there are a lot of facets to this match though, and 3 gate blink stalker rush has a lot of its own problems, the fact that you're doing it blind, without a fast obs to scout the other guy, the fact that a quick TC means your opponent spent it on a robo that can produce immortals to counter the blink stalkers, etc. and yes you can focus fire on one, but if i see a TC and no robo im going to be constantly chronoboosting immortals and you won't be able to focus fire down multiple immortals before your stalkers take a ridiculous amount of damage from my immortals and the rest of my army.
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On August 07 2010 09:58 kyarisan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 08:15 NB wrote:On August 07 2010 07:36 kyarisan wrote:
take my advice with a grain of salt as i'm only a random top diamond player, in by no means a stacked division, but 1 base colo is really strong i think. even if they pump immortal to counter the colo, your defensive concave + FF will let you buy enough time to pump out the necessary zealots to counter the immortal production. when i see someone going immortals after my colo tech, i make sure i add enough warpgates to have 4 that i can use to pump out any additional zealots i need, as they're just really cost effective vs immortal. stalkers can kite zealot balls, but you can minimize that with colossus range and micro etc.
so by preventing a rush with immortal/stalker, if he tries to expand, then you should be able to timing attack, perhaps with the ability to throw down a twilight council and get charge lots to ensure that he cannot kite your forces but that depends partly on the map or when these different developments occur. if he doesn't expand too early, then i think you'll be able to expand yourself pretty freely with critical number of collosi.
could be wrong about all that, but it's helped me win games i really felt unsure about @_@ thanks to you guys, my "counter 1 base collosi" build is winning like sky rockets =D seriously, are you all THAT naive? =)) PvP, seeing a guy going robo and turtle up is way too easy to counter, 3 gate blink rush with robo or 2 gate FE are both crush colossi hard. not to mention the chrono by expan is double which make you macro much faster. if you try to push early with 2 colossi, 2 group control basicly crush you FAST. if you try to get 4 or 5 colossi, its basicly an all-in build since you pretty much broke. 1 wrap prism harras while you moving out will shut the deal consider how imobility the army is. + Show Spoiler +
^You have the right to consider the fact that the above paragraph i made it up. But the fact that im winning vs 1 base colossi is totally true =)
a flaw in your logic is that i'm not getting colossi because i want to turtle up on one base, just that i want a fast colossus so i can have a significant advantage in my unit composition. the post i made above yours was a response to heavy immortal play prior to an expand. if i don't see immortals, then all i do is a) scout scout scout, look for expands, twilight, stargate (if twilight, look for fast archives or shrine while observing enemy army size) b) match gateway count c) expand after critical mass of colossi there are a lot of facets to this match though, and 3 gate blink stalker rush has a lot of its own problems, the fact that you're doing it blind, without a fast obs to scout the other guy, the fact that a quick TC means your opponent spent it on a robo that can produce immortals to counter the blink stalkers, etc. and yes you can focus fire on one, but if i see a TC and no robo im going to be constantly chronoboosting immortals and you won't be able to focus fire down multiple immortals before your stalkers take a ridiculous amount of damage from my immortals and the rest of my army.
true story bro , true story =)
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I think, once you enter the midgame, PvP is actually a pretty good matchup.
It's certainly the most fun of the mirror matches since it has a number of viable strategies.
I main 'toss, but from my experience TvT is tanks an vikings, and ZvZ is ling/bling/muta. There are _no_ other viable strategies.
In PvP you _are_ forced to match gateway for gateway but it changes a lot once the mid game starts, which with liberal use of forcefields, it can often do so.
When I get some time I'm going to write up my feelings on PvP matchup from a high plat, low diamond perspective since there's a lot of players at this tier that are now starting to tune their play and this is a key matchup to do so with so many players going Protoss.
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90% of my pvp is a contest between who can get their 4gate out the fastest and have the proxy pylon closest to the opponent.
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Nice chart, I agree with several posters that 4-5 gate all-in usually beats Robo play. They just have too much stuff and can overwhelm you before Collosi or Immortals come out.
Also, why isn't two gate Zealot rush all-in on the chart? Proxied or not, I have yet to win against anyone using this strat =/
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Generally 75% of the players I PvP against use four gate, with the remaining 25% having a robotics build of some kind. The original chart is out of date, especially since I would say four gate can do fine against dark templar, I believe you can attack before their DT are out and put pressure on them while buying yourself time for detection.
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On August 12 2010 21:41 FuRong wrote:
Nice chart, I agree with several posters that 4-5 gate all-in usually beats Robo play. They just have too much stuff and can overwhelm you before Collosi or Immortals come out.
Also, why isn't two gate Zealot rush all-in on the chart? Proxied or not, I have yet to win against anyone using this strat =/
Personally, when I see a 2gate, I match it. 2 gate Vs. 2 gate (assuming all skill levels equal) defender wins. I haven't been able to beat a well executed 2 gate (let alone proxied) doing anything but another 2 gate.
A problem I sometimes have is the opposite of what I may think: Building placement. If I create a choke that is too narrow, while one of my zealots are battling off at one of his zealots, the rest of his army is ripping through my gateway wall. Just keep that in mind when fighting a 2 gate.
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nice writeup :O
alot of helpfull info 
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On August 07 2010 08:15 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 07:36 kyarisan wrote:
take my advice with a grain of salt as i'm only a random top diamond player, in by no means a stacked division, but 1 base colo is really strong i think. even if they pump immortal to counter the colo, your defensive concave + FF will let you buy enough time to pump out the necessary zealots to counter the immortal production. when i see someone going immortals after my colo tech, i make sure i add enough warpgates to have 4 that i can use to pump out any additional zealots i need, as they're just really cost effective vs immortal. stalkers can kite zealot balls, but you can minimize that with colossus range and micro etc.
so by preventing a rush with immortal/stalker, if he tries to expand, then you should be able to timing attack, perhaps with the ability to throw down a twilight council and get charge lots to ensure that he cannot kite your forces but that depends partly on the map or when these different developments occur. if he doesn't expand too early, then i think you'll be able to expand yourself pretty freely with critical number of collosi.
could be wrong about all that, but it's helped me win games i really felt unsure about @_@ thanks to you guys, my "counter 1 base collosi" build is winning like sky rockets =D seriously, are you all THAT naive? =)) PvP, seeing a guy going robo and turtle up is way too easy to counter, 3 gate blink rush with robo or 2 gate FE are both crush colossi hard. not to mention the chrono by expan is double which make you macro much faster. if you try to push early with 2 colossi, 2 group control basicly crush you FAST. if you try to get 4 or 5 colossi, its basicly an all-in build since you pretty much broke. 1 wrap prism harras while you moving out will shut the deal consider how imobility the army is. + Show Spoiler +
^You have the right to consider the fact that the above paragraph i made it up. But the fact that im winning vs 1 base colossi is totally true =)
I routinely play a 1 base colossus build and I'm not sure if what you described would work, but I'm interested in practicing against what you consider to be a counter colossus build. Message me for a few games please sometime? getSome.950 (:
Against blink stalkers all you need is to make a few immortals to hold it off and snipe their observers if they opt for a robo facility, and then start making colossus when they start making zealots and sentries to combat the immortals. Also I don't see an FE build being effective since a good colossus attack will win against two gateways worth of units before the expansion really kicks in.
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Loving the chart. Straight forward and to the point. PvP is by far the most dynamic and fun mirror match up to play, another reason to go toss. If you guys could make a PvT chart of this sort I would and I'm sure most other Protoss's would appreciate it. PvT isn't as straight forward though so it may be a bit more challenging.
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On August 15 2010 18:42 NET wrote:
Loving the chart. Straight forward and to the point. PvP is by far the most dynamic and fun mirror match up to play, another reason to go toss. If you guys could make a PvT chart of this sort I would and I'm sure most other Protoss's would appreciate it. PvT isn't as straight forward though so it may be a bit more challenging.
Hell no, PvP is by far the most boring, dreadful matchup in the entire game, and the ONE thing that makes me sad I switched to P, since i got 2 awesome and fun matchups, and then this dreary SHIT to deal with...
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Don't really like watching the PvP match-up. Don't like playing it either. Still a very useful OP though.
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TBH I think all three mirror matchups in this game are dreadful. But out of the three, you would be hard pressed to convince me PvP isn't the most dynamic.
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On August 16 2010 06:18 Bull-Demon wrote:
TBH I think all three mirror matchups in this game are dreadful. But out of the three, you would be hard pressed to convince me PvP isn't the most dynamic.
It's a rock paper scissors game, with less micro than SC1 ZvZ.
Not to say that the micro in PvP isnt important, and it might be the maps that just suck.
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hmm idk.. i feel like 11gate, 15 gate, zealot rushing works spectacularly for me if they dont do the same thing i do at least. the 11/15 gate beats forge/gate builds and definitely punishes 1base tech builds. the only time ive lost with this build was when the protoss had ridiculously good stalker kiting and then just raped me with a mass of chargelots and very very effective forcefielding and guardian shield against my blink stalkers.
EDIT: is the 11/15 gate not a valid build? cuz i feel like it wins me a lot of my pvp matches. im rank 7 plat in my division now btw.
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Great thread alot of learning can be done!
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On August 16 2010 07:56 AER0K wrote:
hmm idk.. i feel like 11gate, 15 gate, zealot rushing works spectacularly for me if they dont do the same thing i do at least. the 11/15 gate beats forge/gate builds and definitely punishes 1base tech builds. the only time ive lost with this build was when the protoss had ridiculously good stalker kiting and then just raped me with a mass of chargelots and very very effective forcefielding and guardian shield against my blink stalkers.
EDIT: is the 11/15 gate not a valid build? cuz i feel like it wins me a lot of my pvp matches. im rank 7 plat in my division now btw.
Everyone at the top of the ladder will have that stalker micro. That's why it's not a legitimate build. Learn how to not use that build because you will reach a point where everyone will kite your zealots like that and it will no longer be viable to go 11/15 gate.
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On August 16 2010 08:23 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 07:56 AER0K wrote:
hmm idk.. i feel like 11gate, 15 gate, zealot rushing works spectacularly for me if they dont do the same thing i do at least. the 11/15 gate beats forge/gate builds and definitely punishes 1base tech builds. the only time ive lost with this build was when the protoss had ridiculously good stalker kiting and then just raped me with a mass of chargelots and very very effective forcefielding and guardian shield against my blink stalkers.
EDIT: is the 11/15 gate not a valid build? cuz i feel like it wins me a lot of my pvp matches. im rank 7 plat in my division now btw. Everyone at the top of the ladder will have that stalker micro. That's why it's not a legitimate build. Learn how to not use that build because you will reach a point where everyone will kite your zealots like that and it will no longer be viable to go 11/15 gate.
unless you go 11/15 gate stalker
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EPT
