i just wana add in that you should mention about aggressive early game and the timing for being aggressive early that will pay off (b4 the wrap tech kick in)...
also u forgot to mention wrap rush with shuttle (forgot the name at the moment) where u make lot of sentries to protect when u make wrap gates and stuck in resources so that you can wrap a giant army into ur opt base in early mid game (this is rare but i saw some mid-level platnium players pulled it off)
moreover, sentries with force field lock opt while u FE and lastly, the HT in late-mid game

i also want to have more advices

for the upgrades and stuff but ye, xD

holy_war

United States3590 Posts

May 12 2010 17:29 GMT

#43

Thanks for the pretty useful info. Although I'm still not totally on board with the mass Phoenix builds.

Alou

United States3748 Posts

May 12 2010 17:37 GMT

#44

Nice chart. Thank you Huk and Whiplash.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

May 12 2010 17:39 GMT

#45

Building a mid-game Photon Cannon at your choke will literally negate any kind of DT rush and I think that's going to become a standard, eventually. People rushing for any kind of tech outside of a Robo Fac would be wise to invest some minerals in doing that.

Phoenix rushes can also get stomped by

I'm thinking the strongest build is 2-Gate Zealot pressure into Cannoning your front door into Void Ray harass, expand, cannon your choke and min lines a bit, build another Starport and then pump Carriers. No, really. Carriers are frightening as fuck when you get like 4+. Focus-fire all Stalkers and Void Rays and the game is yours.

Your opponent will have to react to 2-Gate Zealot pressure by building their own, halting their tech, which will then probably be followed by lots of gas spent on Sentries to ensure a clear victory over your Zealots. Void Ray harass will then become a big pain in the ass and cause production of more Stalkers, which you can quite easily steamroll if you camp for a bit and pump out Carriers from 2 bases, all because its tough to take on Photon Cannons + defenders without Collossi. They'll have to sit on their laurels camping because of your harass, and teching to confront your Photon Cannons, giving you a lot of time to get Carriers going.

Floophead_III

United States1832 Posts

May 12 2010 17:42 GMT

#46

On May 13 2010 02:39 Bibdy wrote:
Building a mid-game Photon Cannon at your choke will literally negate any kind of DT rush and I think that's going to become a standard, eventually. People rushing for any kind of tech outside of a Robo Fac would be wise to invest some minerals in doing that.

Phoenix rushes can also get stomped by

I'm thinking the strongest build is 2-Gate Zealot pressure into Cannoning your front door into Void Ray harass, expand, cannon your choke and min lines a bit, build another Starport and then pump Carriers. No, really. Carriers are frightening as fuck when you get like 4+. Focus-fire all Stalkers and Void Rays and the game is yours.

Your opponent will have to react to 2-Gate Zealot pressure by building their own, halting their tech, which will then probably be followed by lots of gas spent on Sentries to ensure a clear victory over your Zealots. Void Ray harass will then become a big pain in the ass and cause production of more Stalkers, which you can quite easily steamroll if you camp for a bit and pump out Carriers from 2 bases, all because its tough to take on Photon Cannons + defenders without Collossi.

Carriers are garbage PvP. Blink stalkers, voidrays, sentry shield - all these things dominate carriers. You're better off massing voidrays with speed and getting a mothership or something. Carriers are a really good way to lose.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

May 12 2010 17:43 GMT

#47

Not from what I've seen. 1 or 2 suck. But 4+ is fucking insane. They tear up Stalkers and Void Rays very quick, and when you run out, its over.

Ryuu314

United States12679 Posts

May 12 2010 18:06 GMT

#48

On May 13 2010 02:43 Bibdy wrote:
Not from what I've seen. 1 or 2 suck. But 4+ is fucking insane. They tear up Stalkers and Void Rays very quick, and when you run out, its over.

You will never get 4+ carriers in the first place without being completely cripple in the higher levels of play. PvP as it is now is pretty much completely dependent on the first few minutes of the game. Whenever I scout someone throwing down cannons at their choke I just expo or mass up an even greater army/tech. I just don't see carriers being all that useful.

Also, just having a cannon at your choke won't stop DTs. Warp prisms can provide an endless supply of DTs into your base, especially if you get the speed upgrade for them. It's pretty easy for them to just find a random location to power up, throw down 1-2 DTs and fly away. Then come back a couple minutes later and repeat. Even if the DT player forces you to throw up a ring of cannons, that's an advantage for that player anyways.

Ragnar4

United States64 Posts

May 12 2010 18:17 GMT

#49

One suggestion?

Perhaps link each "build" could have a hyperlink to a build order/strat? Being a terrible player, this would make this topic even MORE awesome than it already is.

In response to anyone that may say "lol use the search function, noob". Since these players are defining the Build, their exact defnition of the build may differ from something I find using search.

Example

The Awesome Build
etc etc.

vs. Not so awesome Build (> )
blah blah blah

Vs. cheezerush build (</=)
blah blah blah

vs. anything Ragnar4 does. (>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> )
Blah blah blah he sucks blah blah blah.

Anything Ragnar4 Does
vs. Not So Awesome Build (<<<<< )
blah blah blah

vs. Cheese Rush Build (<<< )
blah blah blah

vs The Awesome Build (<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< )
blah blah lol blah.

KnightOfNi

United States1508 Posts

May 12 2010 18:20 GMT

#50

Man I need this lol... its hard to say this stuff for sure cuz it so heavily depends on the map though... void rays are insanely good on maps like desert oasis, where the gas is right on the edge of a cliff (pick off the gas and then go hide in a corner, rinse and repeat) but suck hardcore on maps like scrap station or lost temple. The ramp issue plays a big role as well - this all needs to be looked at more indepth, since the liquipedia has next to nothing on this matchup :S.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

May 12 2010 18:32 GMT

#51

On May 13 2010 03:06 Ryuu314 wrote:

Show nested quote +

It'll stop a DT rush, which is the main strat Whiplash described in the OP. You obviously don't rely on it forever. Nobody in their right mind rushes for VRs, Phoenixes or DTs and then never follow up with an Observer at some later stage. 1 Cannon is all you need to stop the DT rush and at that point you negate their ability to be a game-ending unit. They'll have to build a proper army to beat you.

In other words, if you're going to rush VRs, just build 1 Cannon and you negate one of the strats that would otherwise beat you. Now there's only 2 strats in that list that can beat you. Not 3. That goes for any of the builds, which is why I think it'll become standard play for everything at some point.

gereth86

United States26 Posts

May 12 2010 18:45 GMT

#52

Is there any reason to do a VR rush? Based on the chart and explanations in the thread, it seems like a phoenix are on even footing or better than a VR rush. Are there any situations where a VR rush is better than a phoenix rush in PvP?

musashi

United States29 Posts

May 12 2010 19:03 GMT

#53

I don't know about that stalker with blink<dt, why not just proxy a robotics and blink in to his main to snipe the nexus? Takes some blink and micro to not lose your stalkers while you're killing his nexus, but he will have committed most of his dt to the offensive so that should make things a little easier. then both of you can't mine while you get an obs, hell, if you have the money you could even proxy 2 robos, to make damn sure you get an obs out, or just make a lot of pylons around the single proxy, once you get that obs out though he can't win if you've kept a decent amount of stalkers around, as stalker with blink and obs just owns dt. also, it would be sweet to put that proxy robo in a place with least amount of open ground around it, like against a wall, or up in one of those watchtower places on blistering, so that way you can surround it fully with only a couple pylons, meaning he will have to hack through them in order to get to the juicy robo, and also enough that he can't just pull the plug on it.

JiYan

United States3668 Posts

May 12 2010 19:23 GMT

#54

post on liquipedia imo ^^

RAUS

210 Posts

May 12 2010 21:20 GMT

#55

Huk, what do you think of PvP? i hate the rock paper scissors dynamic, so much that I'm almost going to switch races. it seems stupid of a matchup for the safe build vs stargate tech is completely countered by robo tech.

I hate build order losses; i try to play "safetoss," but it looks like theres no safetoss build.