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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
I can find the youtube video but has anyone done any test to find when tanks reach critical mass vs immortals? We know in small numbers immortals win but when do tanks start winning due to splash? 10? 20? Just something i was thinking about. edit: Magic number with 0 ups each is 20 tanks. http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4846 some 150 flash style push might be very powerful esp since the new siege tanks do full dmg vs light. | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
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Kantutan
Canada1319 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
But it really doesn't matter. Any decent number of tanks + 1 ghost will kill all the immortals in the world. Conversely, a few immortals can absorb tank hits and EMP long enough for psi storm and blink stalkers to kill your whole army. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
Seige tanks will win with like 70 food left in open field unseige tanks will lose hardcore in open field with 108 food left for immortals They may do more dmg unseige but no splash hurts : ( | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
On May 12 2010 09:44 xnub wrote: 200 vs 200 Seige tanks will win with like 70 food left in open field unseige tanks will lose hardcore in open field with 108 food left for immortals They may do more dmg unseige but no splash hurts : ( Right but at what # do they cancel out and become cost effective vs immortals? if its say 30/30 then i can see a nice mid game timing push that would destroy a toss ground army | ||
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seRapH
United States9799 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:07 metaldragon wrote: Right but at what # do they cancel out and become cost effective vs immortals? if its say 30/30 then i can see a nice mid game timing push that would destroy a toss ground army until they get obs and see your composition, tech switch to void rays and zealots and then someone'll be in deep ship. | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
the idea composition is tanks viking hellion. also you should be usings scans alot more when going mech since you dont need the minerals as much anyway. | ||
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whatthemate
Australia51 Posts
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seRapH
United States9799 Posts
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mlee
United States116 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:29 whatthemate wrote: tanks do not rape zealot.they only do full dmg vs armoured targets. i really dont get why Tl.net is filled with so many newbie posts asking irrelevant questions. if you are new you should be asking elsewhere for help. yeah... cuz everyone who touches this game immediately become bonjwas overnight. Isn't the whole purpose of a site like this to help the newbies? | ||
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seRapH
United States9799 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:40 mlee wrote: yeah... cuz everyone who touches this game immediately become bonjwas overnight. Isn't the whole purpose of a site like this to help the newbies? actually, the site's name is "Team Liquid", which is a starcraft team. so no, its not, its made for them~ ok, in reality, the site's actually made to follow progaming, which is to help you, but not in the same way you're thinking. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:29 whatthemate wrote: tanks do not rape zealot.they only do full dmg vs armoured targets. i really dont get why Tl.net is filled with so many newbie posts asking irrelevant questions. if you are new you should be asking elsewhere for help. Lol guy with 3 posts trying to speak for all of TL. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:29 whatthemate wrote: tanks do not rape zealot.they only do full dmg vs armoured targets. i really dont get why Tl.net is filled with so many newbie posts asking irrelevant questions. if you are new you should be asking elsewhere for help. tanks do 35+35 damage versus light. kindly gtfo kthx. User temp banned for this post | ||
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whatthemate
Australia51 Posts
e.g who cares if its maxed out siege tank vs immortals. who the hell plays a game like that? dont theorycraft some sort of 2v2 casual player turtling strat like void ray massing. or something stupid like 200 scvs vs 200 probes, because this topic is stupid. What's this now? im talking about tank mode not siege mode. and your maths is wrong siege with no upgrades does 60 dmg. also re read metal dragon's post. he said tank does full dmg vs light. siege mode does 60 damage in sc2. everyone knows about the small large medium unit size dmg modifiers in sc1. they do not carry over in sc2. dont quote the obvious facts otherwise you may confuse everyone else. also you thought that i thought that siege mode does little dmg vs zealots. it does full damage. 60 universal in siege mode. dont assume anything. there's no need to mention siege mode vs light. that's why I quoted his post, because it was wrong from the beginning. siege mode does 60(no upgrades) vs everything. why bother mentioning light? | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
This is assuming tanks are sieged with a spotter. let me try to uploads rep http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4846 | ||
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dicember
United States50 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:49 Half wrote: tanks do 35+35 damage versus light. kindly gtfo kthx. no. unsieged, they do 10+10 against armored. Sieged, they do 60 splash same against all armor types. | ||
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PROJECTILE
United States226 Posts
0/0 siege tank: unsieged - 15 + 10 armored sieged - 60 to all with splash | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
I would say that if you're going tanks you need to have ghosts anyways, so thinking about pure tanks vs pure immortals is completely pointless past low numbers, and at that point marines will play an essential role. Tanks are the key to beating protoss. The trick is keeping on top of stargate tech and positioning, playing smart and not getting caught unseiged, and especially not falling too far behind in the macro game. | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
On May 12 2010 15:53 Luddite wrote: so, is an army of mass seige tanks actually good against protoss then? Assuming they don't switch to air units obviously. yes. As long as you have 20+ tanks you will more then likely destroy anything on the ground they may send at you esp with a little support. the numbers are a little bias in favor of toss since immortals are 4 supply and tanks are 3 and immortals cost 100 more mineral. so you have room to throw in hellions or marines to make up the difference. ghost help a ton but i dont see why we can see a return of tank,hellion,viking in a similar fashion to sc1. Its gotten to the point where i just build a early starport as a "just in case" measure for dealing with voidrays. you scout air you pump vikings similar to how you would make goliaths in sc1. ghost will give you a CRUSHING ground army but that same gas/supply spent in vikings will give you a much more stable army vs anything they might throw your way. I guess I'm saying if we can find a way to treat ghost as the "end game" unit to completely walk over everything instead of a all in ground push unit we can see a much more effective end game army. Keep in mind vikings do as much as a stimmed marauder to light units and about the same dps as a unstimmed marauder to heavy units. Just having a few vikings on the field immediately cuts off options for toss ad gives T more control of the game. The main point in this is for me is "how much can I get away with without ghost going mech?" | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
On May 12 2010 16:15 dogabutila wrote: and assuming they dont have chargelots or another way into your base.....yes? to be fair upgraded hellion and tanks destroy chargelots. Mech is all about positioning if you cant properly position yourself with mech then you shouldn't be using it to begin with. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
I see blink stalkers becoming a mainstay for Protoss if Terran starts switching to mass tanks, and I see the same fundamental flaw that made Idra cry imba: lack of maneuverability for the Terran army versus hyper maneuverability for the Protoss. | ||
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gedassan
Lithuania83 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:29 whatthemate wrote: tanks do not rape zealot.they only do full dmg vs armoured targets. i really dont get why Tl.net is filled with so many newbie posts asking irrelevant questions. if you are new you should be asking elsewhere for help. As a non-newbie you should know better than announce statements such as "tanks only do full dmg vs armoured targets". And you also cannot "assume unsieged mode" because SIEGE tanks are used for their siege and range in 98% of cases. Thankfully, TL.net is not filled with "pros" pulling stats/info out of their behind. Just a few of those. | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
On May 12 2010 16:33 Azarkon wrote: I think blink stalkers will be the build to beat for mass tanks. Blink stalkers are almost as solid as dragoons were in SC 1, do bonus damage against armored, and have far greater maneuverability, so you won't waste time running back and forth taking tank fire all the while. Oh, and stalkers destroy hellions, vikings, and ghosts, and are relatively cheap and fast to get. Plus they can skip the siege tank defense altogether with their pin point striking capabilities, which allows them to cut holes wherever they desire (similar to how arbiter recall worked in BW, but significantly easier). I see blink stalkers becoming a mainstay for Protoss if Terran starts switching to mass tanks, and I see the same fundamental flaw that made Idra cry imba: lack of maneuverability for the Terran army versus hyper maneuverability for the Protoss. In small numbers I think this is true I still think in the 20+ range tanks will crush blink stalkers too but thats something i need to test. | ||
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Clearout
Norway1060 Posts
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Synk
United States297 Posts
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shalafiend
United States62 Posts
as for mobility, i currently use an air mech style of play, which involves rine/ghost opening to deal w/ immortal/void rays. i get bunkers on my ramp for added comfort. i then expand to my natural, and get around 4 siege tanks, and transition into 2 starports. i proceed to pump medivacs/vikings/banshees. Since this is gas heavy, the extra minerals are used on hellions/marines, with the occasional ghost thrown in. the point of this build is to harrass your opponent constantly with drops and banshees, while you expand with your surplus minerals. the drops give you a comfort zone to safely expand and get your banshee count up. once you have this moblie force up, you obtain map control/dps. ghosts/tanks to protect expansions, and dropship hellion/marines for constant harrassment. | ||
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Teebagger
United States38 Posts
On May 12 2010 17:13 Synk wrote: I believe mass siege tanks basically win against any ground army period. You have to mix in air once they have 6 or more, unless the mass siege tank player is bad at moving and positioning his tanks. I have had a strong immortal mix toss army ripped to shreds by a 6+ siege tank + rines out front army. I was under the impression that immortals would have no problem with it but mass siege tank damage is just out of control against anything on the ground in my experience. Yeah, I have to agree. A friend of mine insists on always going towards a mech-styled build when he plays TvP. I'll try to get a rep up soon but here's the jist of his strategy. He goes marine heavy at the start to build up gas, and then spends it all on tanks. He'll slowly creep up the map with tanks and build turrets all over the map. With his tanks reinforced with mass marines, mixed with a ghost or 2, his army is extremely effective against my zealot/sentry/stalker/immortal army. The only time I've beaten this is by immortal dropping + warping in a bunch of units to do some nice harassment. Otherwise, if the game goes past 15 minutes, I generally lose. Any suggestions? | ||
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Roniii
United States289 Posts
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Conris
United States79 Posts
On May 12 2010 16:33 Azarkon wrote: I think blink stalkers will be the build to beat for mass tanks. Blink stalkers are almost as solid as dragoons were in SC 1, do bonus damage against armored, and have far greater maneuverability, so you won't waste time running back and forth taking tank fire all the while. Oh, and stalkers destroy hellions, vikings, and ghosts, and are relatively cheap and fast to get. Plus they can skip the siege tank defense altogether with their pin point striking capabilities, which allows them to cut holes wherever they desire (similar to how arbiter recall worked in BW, but significantly easier). I see blink stalkers becoming a mainstay for Protoss if Terran starts switching to mass tanks, and I see the same fundamental flaw that made Idra cry imba: lack of maneuverability for the Terran army versus hyper maneuverability for the Protoss. been in this situation and used mass blinkers, it's an old replay and i don't really want to watch them one at a time to find it... however, assuming it's not a blob of tanks seiging in a ball (not that it matters, your stalkers would get demolished after the blink->volley anyway. stalker is hardly a close solution to massed tanks. the trouble is not which unit counters mass tanks aside from air. but that when tanks at critical mass, it means the front row tanks are expendable, there's not a unit that's effective against tanks that are expendable for toss. tbh, as the thread says, 20+ tanks is the magic number, by that time if there are any vikings whatsoever, it's GG, unless you catch them in movement unseiged and somehow have HT on high ground spamming storms while having a ridiculous amount of chargelots getting in range before seige is fully finished. but then again, that's never gonna happen. it's the same as 20+ immortals with pheonix's, you will not stop them. but then again, if tier 2 units for toss and terran becomes massed and expendable, it's a good time to call GG, the game has probably been going on for 30+ minutes anyway. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
IIRC in bw there is a hallu + goon build to counter T tank push. | ||
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
On May 12 2010 13:16 PROJECTILE wrote: jesus, the misinformation in this thread is terrible. 0/0 siege tank: unsieged - 15 + 10 armored sieged - 60 to all with splash it took 19 posts for someone to get this information correct... The sc2 strategy forum needs more chill... although i feel not even that will save it =[ | ||
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Competent
United States406 Posts
Make sure the rines tank the blow from immortals and you will have no eco problem replacing rines, then your tanks will mass up considering they aren't dieing and its gg. I don't know at how many tanks will it be " I win " but I do know 3-4 with about 20 marines stops a sizable immortal army. | ||
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Starfox
Austria699 Posts
On May 12 2010 13:16 PROJECTILE wrote: jesus, the misinformation in this thread is terrible. 0/0 siege tank: unsieged - 15 + 10 armored sieged - 60 to all with splash 60 dmg @ 0 - 0.4687 30 dmg (25%) @ 0.4687 - 0.7812 15 dmg @ 0.7812 - 1.25 sorry that you spread misinformation  | ||
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NoNoNoNoNyoron
United States78 Posts
On May 12 2010 10:54 whatthemate wrote: ^If i were a moderator I would have immediately deleted this thread. Including banning you Fruscainte. You have only a small number of posts too. do not treat this as your personal blog, its not some intimate diary revealing your thoughts and theorycrafting on some retarted situation like this topic. especially if its completely irrelevant or not useful. Blasius's thread of TvZ is perfect example of how to post. e.g who cares if its maxed out siege tank vs immortals. who the hell plays a game like that? dont theorycraft some sort of 2v2 casual player turtling strat like void ray massing. or something stupid like 200 scvs vs 200 probes, because this topic is stupid. What's this now? im talking about tank mode not siege mode. and your maths is wrong siege with no upgrades does 60 dmg. also re read metal dragon's post. he said tank does full dmg vs light. siege mode does 60 damage in sc2. everyone knows about the small large medium unit size dmg modifiers in sc1. they do not carry over in sc2. dont quote the obvious facts otherwise you may confuse everyone else. also you thought that i thought that siege mode does little dmg vs zealots. it does full damage. 60 universal in siege mode. dont assume anything. there's no need to mention siege mode vs light. that's why I quoted his post, because it was wrong from the beginning. siege mode does 60(no upgrades) vs everything. why bother mentioning light? I don't see why you think this is a stupid thread, I think it is a perfectly legitimate discussion because being able to overcome a hard-counter is very impressive. They are not discussing what happens when 200/200 siege tanks and immortals clash, they're trying to find the critical point where siege tanks actually beat their hard counter effectively. At 20 tanks, it is very doable, something no one has bothered to try. | ||
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