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On May 11 2010 13:17 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 12:00 Shenron wrote:
Really you shouldn't try to keep a FE alive if he's 2 gate rushing. If he 2 gate rushes and you hold it off on one base you'll still be ahead. To get ahead when he's NOT rushing you, you FE. Agree with this. OP post is just economic talk and not relevant to overall strategy ... if I scout 2gate I will most definitely 1base on smaller maps and roachspam for the win.
You've got the right idea here. The only reason I made this thread was because I was looking closely at 14H 13P as an economic option on certain maps. I did some analysis and figured I would post it here and see what others thought.
This is definitely not gonna be the thread that rocks the SC2 Beta. This is just a guy (me) interested in a build (14H 13P) looking at what way to make it work best. Those wondering about whether some other economic build is better have good questions but are slightly missing the point. This isn't a thread about those other builds, just this one that I'm looking closely at.
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well im a 1550 plat player and i just tried ur build vs a protoss who scouted it out and had already decieded to do double warpgate or whatever its called before he had seen it. I was able to throw off his rush relativly easily. this build has alot of potential for those who have at least 100 apm to manage everything and keep your resources low, it does take some getting used to.
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On May 11 2010 10:17 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
If the hatchery gets blocked for a significant amount of time, it will become very dangerous to put it down. Sending two drones can get any probe/SCV out of the way very quickly.
Thanks for the analysis, but this is wrong. If opponent decides to micro his probe/scv (not just waypoint it), two drones still have to chase for a while, and you definitely need to pool first in this case. Also Protoss can do pylon block. This is the biggest disadvantage in hatch-first build.
Edit: also your own table shows that 9o is at least the same as 10o+ext.trick. And if we take into account that you lose 10 minerals from ext trick (4 minerals cant be spend), 9o is better.
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I tried some different openings as zerg with a 14 pool to see which ET was worth doing. I watched when I was first at 14 food and had the 200 minerals to buy the spawning pool, and if there were any drones still building.
Overlord at 10: 1:53, 1:54, 1:54 with one drone building
Overlord at 9: 1:52, 1:55, 1:56 with no drones building.
Overlord at 10+ET: 1:54, 1:55 with no drones building.
Double ET+Overlord at 12: 1:56, 1:59 with two drones building.
ET+Overlord at 11: 1:53, 1:57, 1:57 with no drones building.
I tried to do the trick as quickly as possible and with no time lost on making drones (always whenever I had the minerals or supply)
Personally I prefer overlord at 9 since it doesn't get as much larva buildup or waiting for larva while making drones, and there's less to do in the beginning so there's less change of fucking it up. From what I could see ET is pretty much no difference at all from overlord at 9. Have anyone done similar tests to see if ET is in fact better, or just think it's better?
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I completely agree that 14-hatching in both ZvP and ZvT seems to be the way to go because of the creep to get the early spine crawler down. It also creates a better staging area to ramp up on several spine crawlers when you're facing an all-in. I decided to try that and get the spine crawler down and spawn lings the moment the hatch pops even knowing I'm going to get rushed and I started having better results. There are many fine technical details that you must get the timing of to deal with everything like cannon cheese, proxies, bunker rushes, reapers, hellions, banshees, void rays, etc. But once you get the timings down you'll ever want to go pool first unless you really have to in ZvP/T again. It's so nice to be close to matching their economies in the early game and getting saturation on 2 bases early so you can make a lot of hydras or mutas.
There are a lot of ways to block a 14-hatch from being effective, so having both good pool-first and hatch-first openings is a must. It's not too hard to throw down a pool the moment you see your hatch is going to get blocked by a pylon or bunker. The only real consideration is the timing of your extractor. I like to go extractor at the same time as pool when I 14-hatch, it just feels best that way. I get speedlings and lair going at just the right times to defeat early BS. So if you go pool first you should consider getting the extractor a little after pool to match the timing. And if you have to kill a pylon or bunker you're going to need even more minerals relative to gas early on to pay for the lings and the hatch.
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On May 11 2010 15:57 Kyruel wrote:
well im a 1550 plat player and i just tried ur build vs a protoss who scouted it out and had already decieded to do double warpgate or whatever its called before he had seen it. I was able to throw off his rush relativly easily. this build has alot of potential for those who have at least 100 apm to manage everything and keep your resources low, it does take some getting used to.
I'm not at your playing level, but this is my experience. Early attacks are easily blocked with the creep + sudden influx of zerglings.
On May 11 2010 21:17 goszar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 10:17 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
If the hatchery gets blocked for a significant amount of time, it will become very dangerous to put it down. Sending two drones can get any probe/SCV out of the way very quickly.
Thanks for the analysis, but this is wrong. If opponent decides to micro his probe/scv (not just waypoint it), two drones still have to chase for a while, and you definitely need to pool first in this case. Also Protoss can do pylon block. This is the biggest disadvantage in hatch-first build. [1] Edit: also your own table shows that 9o is at least the same as 10o+ext.trick. And if we take into account that you lose 10 minerals from ext trick (4 minerals cant be spend), 9o is better. [2]
[1] If you set one drone to attack move and micro the other, it is pretty easy. You obviously cannot do anything about a pylon block, but that's the same story as BW.
[2] The 9O timing is the same as 10-O-ET timing. I based my conclusion on which was superior based on the economy. I initially decided that 10-O-ET had better economy because my intuition was that earlier drones coming out sooner meant more money. But I looked at the numbers very carefully today and found that the two are practically equivalent in terms of economy. I updated the post accordingly.
Also I'm not sure how you can say that you lose 10 minerals from ET just because you can't spend 4 minerals. Maybe on some millisecond level, that is correct, but after you get >9 drones, you have practically continuous income so that the discrete 5 inputs don't matter anymore.
On May 11 2010 22:07 Highwayman wrote:
There are many fine technical details that you must get the timing of to deal with everything like cannon cheese, proxies, bunker rushes, reapers, hellions, banshees, void rays, etc. But once you get the timings down you'll ever want to go pool first unless you really have to in ZvP/T again. It's so nice to be close to matching their economies in the early game and getting saturation on 2 bases early so you can make a lot of hydras or mutas. [1]
There are a lot of ways to block a 14-hatch from being effective, so having both good pool-first and hatch-first openings is a must. It's not too hard to throw down a pool the moment you see your hatch is going to get blocked by a pylon or bunker. The only real consideration is the timing of your extractor. I like to go extractor at the same time as pool when I 14-hatch, it just feels best that way. I get speedlings and lair going at just the right times to defeat early BS. So if you go pool first you should consider getting the extractor a little after pool to match the timing. And if you have to kill a pylon or bunker you're going to need even more minerals relative to gas early on to pay for the lings and the hatch. [2]
[1] The other detail that's very different is the queen timing. Your first queen comes out late in comparison to Pool-first builds, but your second queen comes out a lot earlier, and you can actually support both of them as soon as you build them.
[2] I've only had a handful of people actually try to block my Hatch. Most of them are happy that I'm going Hatch first because they feel like their early attack is just going to be that much stronger. But yes, if you are certain that your Hatch is gonna get blocked, you should immediately throw down a Pool AND an Extractor so that you're spending your money better and that you can prepare for Ling Speed or fast Lair if necessary.
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I thought 14 hatch is a BO loss vs fast (proxy) reaper + bunker? How do you deal with that?
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On May 12 2010 02:10 BlasiuS wrote:
I thought 14 hatch is a BO loss vs fast (proxy) reaper + bunker? How do you deal with that?
You don't let the bunker finish. If it finishes in range of your hatch you're pretty much screwed though.
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On May 11 2010 10:17 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[1] The other detail that's very different is the queen timing. Your first queen comes out late in comparison to Pool-first builds, but your second queen comes out a lot earlier, and you can actually support both of them as soon as you build them.
Great point. I definitely believe I've noticed this difference. When I go pool first I end up having a ton of extra larva or energy fairly early in the game, while when I go hatch first I'm usually able to spend all my larva at least until the mid-game is well established.
On May 11 2010 10:17 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
[2] I've only had a handful of people actually try to block my hatch. Most of them are happy that I'm going Hatch first because they feel like their early attack is just going to be that much stronger. But yes, if you are certain that your Hatch is gonna get blocked, you should immediately throw down a Pool AND an Extractor so that you're spending your money better and that you can prepare for Ling Speed or fast Lair if necessary.
I also experience very few people trying to block my hatch, and if they do they're rarely successful. But I mention this because I've seen some of the top players becoming really successful at blocking, so I think it's important to be aware of it. Even if they don't block it, they immediately go into the mode where they must attack as soon as possible with whatever force they can muster. It seems to play right into my favor because spine crawlers are so cost effective in the early game when you can ensure they're hitting targets in the battle (no gas and -1 supply!). I had problems with defending cannon cheese and bunker rushes because of the morphing hatch's lack of vision but sending my first spawned overlord (2nd total) to the natural solved that issue almost completely. I will also send a drone to chase the SCV or probe around if it seems like they're trying to peel off to do something sneaky, which seems especially effective considering so many toss players rely on the close proxy pylon for their initial attack.
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since roach nerf, i've switched to this as my standard opener. so far, my maths tell me it can stop almost any rush.
ive had the most trouble with a 2gate/mass zealot, but thats a matter of throwing down enough spine crawlers to deal with it.
i have not attempted it on steppes yet.
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I Personnaly believe that the 11th drone, who is my scout drone, coming out faster is more important than a very little Eco advantage. Thus 10 ET Ovi is definitiy the best of these 3 builds IMO. I don't get cheesed, and am able to completely adapt to rush builds (chrono 10 gate, 9 rax mass marine, etc.). The 12th and 13th coming later is actually an Advantage because I often can switch to a late overpool if needed. I do think this should be taken into consideration in your choices... 
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EPT
