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On May 06 2010 14:10 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 12:44 Floophead_III wrote:On May 06 2010 12:35 xnub wrote:
just marauders. mass hydras or zerglings or go mutas good hydra/roach/infestor mix > then any MMM ball No don't get hydras. Hydras suck by themselves vs bio. NEVER make roaches vs T bio. It's pointless and cost ineffective. Vs low numbers pure speedling does fine (try to fight on creep if at all possible). Vs higher numbers either get mutas or go baneling/speedling. I did some tests the other day and banelings actually do quite well vs marauder balls. Really the correct thing is to survive until mutas which force marines which allows you to go banelings >>> infestors. Marauder spam will lose to speedlings provided you position smartly and don't get caught without enough. Once you hit a large ball of marauders speedlings lose efficiency due to surface area vs damage so banelings become a good choice. I haven't found a T-bio strat that doesn't plain die to speedling >>> muta >>> baneling >>> infestor >>> broodlord. I think that's the correct tech path to go vs bio builds. Pure marauders vs pure hydras ? hydras win hands down /shrug same food count of course oh and he was talking about marauder balls not bio with rines or anything Roachs/hydra/infestor > MMM ball with same food count
ur seriously suggesting using more expensive unit, which comes at t2, vs t1 unit, early marauder push , will obliterate pretty much all you have, and you wont have hydras, unless you went 1 base mass hydras, but he will get some marines and some more marauders, and still will run over you..
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The OP was describing what happened when he did a baneling bust build and found that the T had countered with Marauders on the ramp while pumping more to counter the baneling bust. It's key to scout the ramp before morphing your lings into banelings imo. If you see that the wall won't be cracked you need to be saving units for the inevitable counter push and scouting to see what composition you need to make to counter his next step.
Baneling bust is nearly all-in, but you have a sizable army of speedlings to catch an early push out in the open if he tries aggression.
Here's my usual flow, doesn't work 100% of the time to get me to midgame but it's damned better than losing all the time like I did before.
-When you get critical mass of lings start fixing your econ or teching.
-Scout the ramp
-If marauders blocking it or wall is too thick, don't morph those banelings.
-Keep a scout for his push, but get your lings in a position to catch the marauders in a bad position.
-Scout his next step
-Pick your next step from your scouting. (+1 lings while working on econ, tech to hydra/infest/muta, etc. etc.)
-If he pushes out you really have to choose the location of the fight (get a nice surround, surround near some spine crawlers, just delay him enough, etc.)
He can be really far ahead of you on econ at this point and the Marauder ball you describe just may be too much against speedlings (especially with the potential stim), but if you play smart you can catch an advantageous moment and put that nice ~30 zergling force to use to surround the fatties.
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I find that im usually not behind by very much when going for a baneling bust and it doesnt work out. (as long as I dont fail and lose all my units uselessly ofc).
I mean by the time the baneling+speedling timing is there, I have a queen, and an expo is being built, along with a reasonable amount of drones.
Catching up shouldnt be too much of an issue, as long as I find a way to hold him off without having to invest double the amount of money on army compared to him. Gonna see how more banelings work out.
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Moar Fungal Growth. Moar Hydra. Less other bad units.
Edit: Alternatively, Mutas lolol
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Fungal growth works wonders.
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Hydra/ling/bling + fungal > MMM whether its pure marauders or not. Spine crawlers are also cost effective if you can put them up in such a way he can't pick them off 1 at a time.
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Firstly, don't go baneling bust against terran every game, because baneling bust doesn't do well vs. early marauders (as you have seen).
early-game: use speedlings, speedlings beat marauders for cost until marauders get medivacs and/or +1 armor
mid-game: use mutas, even if you lose your expo, you will be ahead since you can kill off his marauders and then harass his base while rebuilding your hatch
late-game: use broodlords
If he's going pure marauder, don't make any crawlers, don't make any roaches, don't make any banelings. Once you get lair, hydras are ok, but mutas are far better.
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On May 06 2010 14:32 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 14:10 xnub wrote:
Pure marauders vs pure hydras ? hydras win hands down /shrug same food count of course
Hm, well did you try it out for yourself, or are you just arm waving? Because personally, that has not been my experience. Stimmed marauders do about the same dps to hydras as hydras do back to them. (taking into account the armor on marauders) And marauders have 25 more life than hydras. And marauders can kill hydras cleanly, hydras waste some dps on killing marauders, since it takes 9 and a half shots to kill a marauder, and they cant fire half shots. In my personal experience, a pure hydra vs stimmed marauder fight in equal numbers, is not clearly in the hydra's favor at all. Also, in equal numbers, the zerg player payed more for his army, hydras are more expensive than marauders.
I have always found when I have Hydra's and my opponent has Marauder I can win the fight or he retreats.
Marauders do not rape hydra's like they rape roaches at all... So saying Hydra aren't recommended is dumb I always go hydra as they are a good unit against both T and P.
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On May 06 2010 23:39 Smikis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 14:10 xnub wrote:On May 06 2010 12:44 Floophead_III wrote:On May 06 2010 12:35 xnub wrote:
just marauders. mass hydras or zerglings or go mutas good hydra/roach/infestor mix > then any MMM ball No don't get hydras. Hydras suck by themselves vs bio. NEVER make roaches vs T bio. It's pointless and cost ineffective. Vs low numbers pure speedling does fine (try to fight on creep if at all possible). Vs higher numbers either get mutas or go baneling/speedling. I did some tests the other day and banelings actually do quite well vs marauder balls. Really the correct thing is to survive until mutas which force marines which allows you to go banelings >>> infestors. Marauder spam will lose to speedlings provided you position smartly and don't get caught without enough. Once you hit a large ball of marauders speedlings lose efficiency due to surface area vs damage so banelings become a good choice. I haven't found a T-bio strat that doesn't plain die to speedling >>> muta >>> baneling >>> infestor >>> broodlord. I think that's the correct tech path to go vs bio builds. Pure marauders vs pure hydras ? hydras win hands down /shrug same food count of course oh and he was talking about marauder balls not bio with rines or anything Roachs/hydra/infestor > MMM ball with same food count ur seriously suggesting using more expensive unit, which comes at t2, vs t1 unit, early marauder push , will obliterate pretty much all you have, and you wont have hydras, unless you went 1 base mass hydras, but he will get some marines and some more marauders, and still will run over you..
Shut up noob.
OP, I suggest using speedlings, hydras and infestors. Mass marauder is a stupid strategy and your speedlings will be able to keep toe to toe with his maurauders unti mid game where the ball is too big for effective speedling rape. At that point, you will have infestors and hydras which easily clean up on maurauders.
When you do use mutas, and he has a superior ground army, you want to just focus on harass to make him stay at base and waste resources getting turrets or vikings. If he attacks before you were able to effectively harass with mutas and beats you, then you didn't produce enough lings.
As with all scenarios, you should be scouting your opponent to stay on top of his strategy. If he starts adding a lot of marines, then you can either add more infestors to rely on fungal growth or you can mix in banelings.
On fungal growth: you can fungal the back of the ball and micro your units back slightly to fight fewer marauders at once. Or if you have enough infestors, you can fungal the whole thing and get a concave position on him.
The marauder strategy will only get deadly once he introduces another unit, particularly the raven. But as far as just mass marauders... speedlings -> hydra/infestor.
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Marauders take 9 shots to kill a hydra, assuming equal upgrades, becauset he hydra will regen 1 hp during the fight. Well, atl east 1 hp. That said, as a new Zerg player (from terran), once the Marauder ball starts hitting critical mass fighting it seems almost impossible as there is no logical counter to it. You can throw out lings because the fuckers are hardly worth their minerals after 5 mins, throw out banelings because marauders are too tanky, throw out roaches and Ultralisks because they are armoured and what are you left with? Air units (which, whilst quite useful you cannot easily transition to a muta/ling army from your hydra/w/e army because of the insane amount of gas you need to pump pure mutas NOW) and hydralisks and infestors (fungal growth tickles marauders BUT I do see some use for it in disrupting the Terran's firing line, neural parasite is not good vs marauders but definitey against those tanks behind them and infested terran is lolpants).
As mentioned, Hydras are not great units. They are spammable, move quick on creep and are the only halfway decent AA you've got in your entire lineup. Still they are not great. They are very fragile and whilst they definitely do good dps that's good dps by Zerg standards, which is not comparable to thor/tank/collosus/immortal motherfuckery and the fact they are the only good main combat unit after 10 mins is tempered by the fact they cannot be allowed to be TOO good at GtG combat because they shoot air too (something the marauders admittedly don't do).
So how do zergs win? Well, straightforward. Expand like crazy and macro like crazy. Having shit units is well offset by having never ending streams of the pricks.
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On May 07 2010 02:53 iaguz wrote:
Marauders take 9 shots to kill a hydra, assuming equal upgrades, becauset he hydra will regen 1 hp during the fight. Well, atl east 1 hp. That said, as a new Zerg player (from terran), once the Marauder ball starts hitting critical mass fighting it seems almost impossible as there is no logical counter to it. You can throw out lings because the fuckers are hardly worth their minerals after 5 mins, throw out banelings because marauders are too tanky, throw out roaches and Ultralisks because they are armoured and what are you left with? Air units (which, whilst quite useful you cannot easily transition to a muta/ling army from your hydra/w/e army because of the insane amount of gas you need to pump pure mutas NOW) and hydralisks and infestors (fungal growth tickles marauders BUT I do see some use for it in disrupting the Terran's firing line, neural parasite is not good vs marauders but definitey against those tanks behind them and infested terran is lolpants).
As mentioned, Hydras are not great units. They are spammable, move quick on creep and are the only halfway decent AA you've got in your entire lineup. Still they are not great. They are very fragile and whilst they definitely do good dps that's good dps by Zerg standards, which is not comparable to thor/tank/collosus/immortal motherfuckery and the fact they are the only good main combat unit after 10 mins is tempered by the fact they cannot be allowed to be TOO good at GtG combat because they shoot air too (something the marauders admittedly don't do).
So how do zergs win? Well, straightforward. Expand like crazy and macro like crazy. Having shit units is well offset by having never ending streams of the pricks.
If there were a league below copper, would you be in it?
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Baneling bust is pretty easily countered.
But a good quick mass marauder timing push definitely takes finesse to beat. What I'm seeing as the key are either banelings, infestors, or a combination of both along with speedlings. Banelings are still really effective vs marauders, but you just have to have more of them and/or centrifugal hooks. I think the best play would probably be to make a lot of speedlings early and when you can make more. Get early lair (which can be worked into a variety of builds), and make an infestion pit and infestors as quickly as possible.Then make a baneling nest somewhat early so you have the baneling option. And the nice thing is that you can avoid making banelings until you see the push coming if you're scouting properly, but making them early isn't really going to hurt you in ZvT. I'm really curious about the timing but I bet you get an infestor or 2 with enough energy to fungal just in time. Tactically you just fungal the marauder ball, then move in with banelings and speedlings. This will negate the concussive shell kiting that they can do against only speedlings completely as they can't move and the banelings will do lots of instant damage, making them easy to clean up with speedlings that you can also be spawning as the battle is happening. I'm not sure at the moment which is better: zergling speed or lair with the first 100 gas. I suspect it's probably better to get lair first so you can get infestors going as quickly as possible because of how important they are, and it gives you a better build to transition to other things (mutas, hydras, roach tech) if you scout the need. Hydras seem like a bad choice vs this type of quick marauder-only push if you FE, and you should, because you won't quite have enough hydras because they just take too much damage. In theory hydras are a good counter, but timing-wise it's pretty tough to get that critical number.
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On May 06 2010 23:39 Smikis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 14:10 xnub wrote:On May 06 2010 12:44 Floophead_III wrote:On May 06 2010 12:35 xnub wrote:
just marauders. mass hydras or zerglings or go mutas good hydra/roach/infestor mix > then any MMM ball No don't get hydras. Hydras suck by themselves vs bio. NEVER make roaches vs T bio. It's pointless and cost ineffective. Vs low numbers pure speedling does fine (try to fight on creep if at all possible). Vs higher numbers either get mutas or go baneling/speedling. I did some tests the other day and banelings actually do quite well vs marauder balls. Really the correct thing is to survive until mutas which force marines which allows you to go banelings >>> infestors. Marauder spam will lose to speedlings provided you position smartly and don't get caught without enough. Once you hit a large ball of marauders speedlings lose efficiency due to surface area vs damage so banelings become a good choice. I haven't found a T-bio strat that doesn't plain die to speedling >>> muta >>> baneling >>> infestor >>> broodlord. I think that's the correct tech path to go vs bio builds. Pure marauders vs pure hydras ? hydras win hands down /shrug same food count of course oh and he was talking about marauder balls not bio with rines or anything Roachs/hydra/infestor > MMM ball with same food count ur seriously suggesting using more expensive unit, which comes at t2, vs t1 unit, early marauder push , will obliterate pretty much all you have, and you wont have hydras, unless you went 1 base mass hydras, but he will get some marines and some more marauders, and still will run over you..
He was saying pure marauder was rolling him. He said he was able to try mutas/hydras and more so its not a early push and he can/has the tech by then. Also i was giving him a pure counter to pure marauders. To show they are not OP he is just not macroing or microing like he should be. Hydras would rape them but most likly he will have hydra/zerglings a very good counter.
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I don't think I've seen it mentioned but the +1 melee attack upgrade is critical for zerglings against marauders. And if you get to lair try to get the 2nd melee upgrade.
The difficult part of this build in my opinion is fending off a marauder push right as your hydra den is finishing. And I think it's most effective just to do lings with some small roach support. Yes roaches get owned but given their non-melee range they'll be able to do some extra dps to the marauders while your lings that can't hit them run around in circles. Also he probably won't be able to focus fire the roaches as well as he wants since lings will be disrupting his movement. Either way roaches and up'd zerglings do about the same DPS verse marauders.
I don't know whether or not to recommend early ground armor. M's do 10 damage so with 1 armor they'd do 9. Over 4 shots that is 36 damage but with heal you might be able to recoup some of that life, depending how quickly the zergling gets shot.
IF he brings helions, try to break off a group of 6 speedlings or roaches and chase them around... They shouldn't have pre-igniter since he probably won't have the gas for it. A good way to make him not bring helions is to hide your zerglings in some spot terrans don't usually scan, and make sure he sees your roach warren.
After lair tech is up if you can get mutalisks (which i would recommend over hydras) then you can just keep on going with muta/ling. When he makes thors make infestors. Don't really want to devote any more thought than that just because there's no set formula like "oh yeah you'll win if you get to lair tech". Only thing i'll suggest is fungal growth works well with ultralisks.
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On May 06 2010 14:32 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2010 14:10 xnub wrote:
Pure marauders vs pure hydras ? hydras win hands down /shrug same food count of course
Hm, well did you try it out for yourself, or are you just arm waving? Because personally, that has not been my experience. Stimmed marauders do about the same dps to hydras as hydras do back to them. (taking into account the armor on marauders) And marauders have 25 more life than hydras. And marauders can kill hydras cleanly, hydras waste some dps on killing marauders, since it takes 9 and a half shots to kill a marauder, and they cant fire half shots. In my personal experience, a pure hydra vs stimmed marauder fight in equal numbers, is not clearly in the hydra's favor at all. Also, in equal numbers, the zerg player payed more for his army, hydras are more expensive than marauders.
Hydras do 14.46 dps on light
marauders do 10.45 on light stimed and lose 20 hp and last for only 15 sec then they are back to doing 6.67
Yes hydras take more shots to kill a marauder but they shoot under a sec were as a marauder even with the stim shoot alot slower.
None stim 10 on 10 hydras live with 5-6 avg
stim 10 on 10 hydras live with 3-4 avg
1250 min 400 gas Marauders
1000min 500 gas hydras
Both microed and played by humans larger balls still same hydras win.
Then in real battles add in zerglings/roachs to eat dmg weeeee rape. Roachs a bio ball zerglings a noob that is pushing marauders only
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10 marauders vs10 hydras is not the issue. Yea the hydras can take on small numbers of marauders, but if the terran gets like 50+ it is really hard, even with support units like infestors. Stim not only lets you do more dps in large battles but also makes the AI make an arc much faster which is a huge benefit in large battles.
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On May 08 2010 02:10 mawno wrote:
10 marauders vs10 hydras is not the issue. Yea the hydras can take on small numbers of marauders, but if the terran gets like 50+ it is really hard, even with support units like infestors. Stim not only lets you do more dps in large battles but also makes the AI make an arc much faster which is a huge benefit in large battles.
big #'s late games Roach/hydra/infestor RAPES MMM like hands down rapes. Fungal growth run away omg they are all stuck in one spot : O and hope they stimmed lol. Watch all the medvacs try and pop there life back up do it again fungal growth run. Weeeee Medvacs out of eng and he has a bunch of low hp units attack win.
and if you are playing def creep speed go go. Even without doing the kite fungal hydra/roach/infestor head on will win vs a MMM ball of the same food/size easy
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On May 07 2010 02:53 iaguz wrote:
Marauders take 9 shots to kill a hydra, assuming equal upgrades, becauset he hydra will regen 1 hp during the fight. Well, atl east 1 hp. That said, as a new Zerg player (from terran), once the Marauder ball starts hitting critical mass fighting it seems almost impossible as there is no logical counter to it. You can throw out lings because the fuckers are hardly worth their minerals after 5 mins, throw out banelings because marauders are too tanky, throw out roaches and Ultralisks because they are armoured and what are you left with? Air units (which, whilst quite useful you cannot easily transition to a muta/ling army from your hydra/w/e army because of the insane amount of gas you need to pump pure mutas NOW) and hydralisks and infestors (fungal growth tickles marauders BUT I do see some use for it in disrupting the Terran's firing line, neural parasite is not good vs marauders but definitey against those tanks behind them and infested terran is lolpants).
As mentioned, Hydras are not great units. They are spammable, move quick on creep and are the only halfway decent AA you've got in your entire lineup. Still they are not great. They are very fragile and whilst they definitely do good dps that's good dps by Zerg standards, which is not comparable to thor/tank/collosus/immortal motherfuckery and the fact they are the only good main combat unit after 10 mins is tempered by the fact they cannot be allowed to be TOO good at GtG combat because they shoot air too (something the marauders admittedly don't do).
So how do zergs win? Well, straightforward. Expand like crazy and macro like crazy. Having shit units is well offset by having never ending streams of the pricks.
lmao at calling hydras, roaches, mutas, or broodlords "shit units"
Zerg players have the most insane macro mechanic but continue to play the victim? Hydras are one of the best for-cost units in the game man.
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hydra/ling/bling/infestor
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Bling bust isn't early aggression. It puts you fairly all in.
If you're going for that early of a bling bust, a contingency plan is extremely hard to execute correctly. It's pretty damn all in and if you don't at least kill like all his scvs (if not win outright), you lose.
If you're expoing at the same time, there's really no way you can do so without not dying as your army will be lacking if you're putting money into the expo, specially if terran is going pure marauder. It's even 100x worse if they opened hellion. ling as an army is ok against marauder but if you're doing the bling bust build + an expo, you won't be able to keep up with his numbers.
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EPT
