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I just watched the semi finals and finals replays of Zotac Beta Cup #10. Replays and results are linked here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116985
My impression was, that both HayprO (Z) and Dimaga (Z) were throwing a game against Sonnenkind (Naniwa, P) when trying to go 14 Hatch, but the Expo was smartly blocked by a probe. Their macro and their overall gameplan seemed to get hurt very badly by the probe at the Expo.
They had to wait for pool and lings to get rid of the drone/pylon, then building the expo very late (I think Haypro even built a 3rd Hatch near the expo in the meantime). I also had the impression that they did not go for pool and more drones immediately, instead to were occupied with microing their drone against the probe and getting stuck on ~400 minerals.
Both games continued with the probe building a pylon at the expo spot and then running back a little bit to build a proxy stargate/robotics facility and the games ended pretty fast after that.
So my questions:
What is the correct backup plan for a Zerg if the expo spot is blocked by a P player (maybe also T?) by a probe/pylon?
(a) Go for an expo at another spot, although it might be hard to defend?
(b) Send 2 drones to the expo, 1 to fend of the probe and 1 to build the expo? (Might not work because of the pylon block followup)
(c) Give up saving 300 minerals for the expo and throw down a pool and more drones with the money immediately instead?
(d) Pull more drones to be able to destroy the pylon faster?
(e) Always go 14 pool instead of hatch, because then there is less delay till the lings arrive?
Thanks for any advice.
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Generally in BW you'd just plop down a 12 pool as the safest solution vs T or P. In this case a 14 pool would be perfectly fine. It's not nearly as harmful because you get a faster queen = faster spawn larva which offsets having 1 hatch. Protoss is delaying his own build considerably to place an early pylon like that, so it's fine if you lose a little eco in the end.
To avoid this problem all together it's a good idea to hide your hatch-making drone behind the minerals or something. hatches place like 5x faster in BW so you can't block them nearly as easily, but if you do get in the way clearing the probe with drones is nearly impossible because they have a melee attack that is possibly the stupidest attack in the game (it's really that bad).
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Hmm, if you watch the replays, the P player new, that the Zerg was going for the fast expo (without scouting it), so probe was blocking the spot long before he had the 300 minerals to build the Hatchery or any drone was in sight range. So I don't think that hiding the drone would help.
So the only good plan is (e) - always go pool first? But even then you would lose quite some time till the first lings arrive to fend of the drone.
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if you really want that early expo, then go for a 14 hatch, but dont expect it to always work. a 13pool 14 hatch or 15pool 14 hatch is fine, too. these lets you get some zerglings out if a probe tries to block, and if theres no probe your hatch isnt significantly delayed either. plus you get an earlier queen, which is always good.
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hmm.. maybe a idea that will fail against a decent scout... but would it be possible to lure the protoss? do a 14 pool and if thats not seen or you manage to send the drone out early enough that the probe turns to follow you could have him think he's delaying you in a major way. mind trick you know 
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Wouldn't 13 pool just to kill any shenanigans be better? or even 12 pool on a small map?
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On May 04 2010 22:03 ZergOwaR wrote:hmm.. maybe a idea that will fail against a decent scout... but would it be possible to lure the protoss? do a 14 pool and if thats not seen or you manage to send the drone out early enough that the probe turns to follow you could have him think he's delaying you in a major way. mind trick you know
happens all the time in bw. dont see why it wouldnt work in sc2
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Against a Zerg who's intent on expanding right after he pools and defending with 1 spinecrawler to pump mass drones this is devastating. If you let him pull it off he's going to have a huge head start if you stop him he's going to be far behind. They usually have no plan for what to do if they get it blocked and if they do have a plan they are already behind in executing it by the time they figure out you're going to block them. So I recommend expanding after your first 2 zerglings come out. That's at around 18. Prior to this you should also build your queen and get gas because you're going to need zergling speed or possibly roaches to hold your expo. The reason for that is because you have no creep at your expo to get spine crawlers up soon enough to stop chrono'd zealots or bunkers. You have to do this against a good player because they should all be blocking your expo if you don't have zerglings out.
Also you should never 14 hatch before pool. It's just not worth it most of the time. Unless you expect your opponent to be totally passive early game.
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I haven't seen the games but I'm not sure why they 14 hatched against a toss because so much more can go wrong if they block the hatch or proxy gate. I'll be kind of surprised if they continue with the 14 hatch and I haven't seen them do the 14 hatch before.
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2nd queen, zergling speed, zerglings, pressure.
2nd queen, roach den.
Lair + zerglings.
Any of these are viable. It's extremely annoying to have ur expansion blocked and it will set you back but the question is how much. I always start collecting 1 extractor worth of gas @ 18 for this reason. The transition from having your expo blocked into 2hat roach is pretty smooth.
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Oh... in this game they didn't pool first? Im too busy to look at the rep ATM, sorry. But from what I can tell there is basically no advantage, and significant disadvantage, to going hat before pool in any matchup.
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On May 05 2010 07:55 travis wrote:
Oh... in this game they didn't pool first? Im too busy to look at the rep ATM, sorry. But from what I can tell there is basically no advantage, and significant disadvantage, to going hat before pool in any matchup.
There was a thread a while back that showed that 14 hatch before pool is better but the advantage doesn't kick in until the 4 min mark and you get lings and roaches out slower before then.
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On May 05 2010 08:48 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 07:55 travis wrote:
Oh... in this game they didn't pool first? Im too busy to look at the rep ATM, sorry. But from what I can tell there is basically no advantage, and significant disadvantage, to going hat before pool in any matchup. There was a thread a while back that showed that 14 hatch before pool is better but the advantage doesn't kick in until the 4 min mark and you get lings and roaches out slower before then.
It becomes totally dependent on when you get attacked. You'll have more larva but you'll often times be spending more just to repel an attack where you have less units and consequently lose more in the process. On the other hand if you don't get attacked and don't make anything but drones your economy grows so quickly you'll have a real economy advantage. I feel like people don't realize how quickly an unchecked Zerg can grow their economy once they are on two bases.
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On May 05 2010 09:55 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 08:48 guitarizt wrote:On May 05 2010 07:55 travis wrote:
Oh... in this game they didn't pool first? Im too busy to look at the rep ATM, sorry. But from what I can tell there is basically no advantage, and significant disadvantage, to going hat before pool in any matchup. There was a thread a while back that showed that 14 hatch before pool is better but the advantage doesn't kick in until the 4 min mark and you get lings and roaches out slower before then. It becomes totally dependent on when you get attacked. You'll have more larva but you'll often times be spending more just to repel an attack where you have less units and consequently lose more in the process. On the other hand if you don't get attacked and don't make anything but drones your economy grows so quickly you'll have a real economy advantage. I feel like people don't realize how quickly an unchecked Zerg can grow their economy once they are on two bases.
and how quick is that.. with 14 hatch, your income wont be that great, even after second hatch comes out. you wont have much of income,
income doesnt grow that much, just wach some replays.. early hatch means you expand having 550~income, while enemy most likely on 850, then you obviously get back to even footing, few more mins latter. you will go to 1200.. opposed to 900.. from single base.. not to mention insane defensive cost needed, and mass workers production.. its not exactly that explosive as you claim..
unless you actually go for 24 workers for minerals alone in each hatch.. you wont go over 1250 income per 2 hatches..
and there is no chance you will for 48 workers, as benefits are too small, nor you will have money for it.. so that gives you like 300 advantage over t and maybe 350 over one base p..
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pool before hatch is economically better and more versatile. I don't get why players even bother with hatch first builds. The few merits is to hatch first compared to pool first is that your hatchery will be starting to build earlier so that it will actually have more hitpoints against a zeal rush. In some builds the extra 2 pop the hatch provides is neccesary for the build as well.
Pool first is strictly better though in my opinion simply because it equates to more larvae, saturation isn't a issue till 16 drones anyway and pool first is much more versatile. I've never seen someone give good arguments for why to hatch first except maybe to avoid getting the hatch blocked which obviously doesn't work all the time either.
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Every replay I've watched the hatch first has always generated a better econ than pool first... you are also able to solidify your position sooner and transfer drones quicker to avoid saturation issues (unless you're drones are perfectly on two per crystal or something).
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It is also nice to be able to make a second queen sooner.
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The beauty of 14 Hatch 14 Pool build is that you start two queens at the same time. If your opponent is very passive, just mass drones and win on huge eco advantage.
But sadly clever Protosses started doing the pylon block.
Before this, I just always sent two drones to FE if a saw a probe by scouting drone or ovie.
Now I think it's much safer to do FE after 2-8 lings (18-22 range).
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ok, firstly, 14 hat 14 pool doesn't really allow u to make a 2nd queen much sooner. maybe slightly sooner? but ur first queen is later.
anyways I am not convinced hat before pool gives a significant econ advantage at all, and so I am going to test it later today
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14 hatch 14 pool allows you to double queen as soon as your pool finishes, which in turn lets you drone whore like no tomarrow.
Just watch out for 2-gate zealot pushes, so keep drones on scouting missions always. If they start letting some Zs out of there base, you need to start putting crawlers down like yesterday along with some lings as lurebait
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There have been countless topics about this before, pool first really is economically better.
A short recap:
queens generate larvae at a higher rate then a hatchery.
Pool first build gives a queen earlier and a hatchery later. The starting time of the pool in a hatch first is the same as the starting time of the hatch in a pool first build.
Having the queen earlier earlier equates to more larvae in total then having the hatchery earlier. The queen gives eggs in batches of 4 though while the hatchery gives them 1 at a time and 1 directly, if you seek to create 8 fast zerglings for example hatch first can be easier.
The advantage of a faster 2nd queen with a hatch first build is almost a moot point, given that you can't support dual queens this early anyway. 2 fast queens only results in unspent larvae especially since you need to make zerglings and not drones against a capable opponent.
Conclusion, overall queen(pool) first is better as it's more versatile and can eco-boom better as well, hatch first is only relevant as it's easier to get those early 8 zerglings which are preferred by some players to counter the first 2 zealots.
Just because some 'pro's' do hatch first doesn't mean it's better. There are tons of example's of great players doing suboptimal builds even though it's easy to proof some are just better. Just look at 9 overlord vs 10 overlord for example, 9 is strictly better but some still do 10. Many players don't bother to take a analytical view at build orders including the pro's as lots of times it doesn't really matter much. It can also be argued that the difference between pool and hatch first is too small to really matter and that personal preferences are more important.
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I just keep doing what I would normally do without having a FE if the opponent is doing their best to block it. You just have to keep going as efficient as possible and not let them frustrate you. I'm not the best by any means but I am pretty high in ladder when I have the time to play.
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On May 06 2010 01:25 Markwerf wrote:
There have been countless topics about this before, pool first really is economically better.
A short recap:
queens generate larvae at a higher rate then a hatchery.
Pool first build gives a queen earlier and a hatchery later. The starting time of the pool in a hatch first is the same as the starting time of the hatch in a pool first build.
Having the queen earlier earlier equates to more larvae in total then having the hatchery earlier. The queen gives eggs in batches of 4 though while the hatchery gives them 1 at a time and 1 directly, if you seek to create 8 fast zerglings for example hatch first can be easier.
The advantage of a faster 2nd queen with a hatch first build is almost a moot point, given that you can't support dual queens this early anyway. 2 fast queens only results in unspent larvae especially since you need to make zerglings and not drones against a capable opponent.
Conclusion, overall queen(pool) first is better as it's more versatile and can eco-boom better as well, hatch first is only relevant as it's easier to get those early 8 zerglings which are preferred by some players to counter the first 2 zealots.
Just because some 'pro's' do hatch first doesn't mean it's better. There are tons of example's of great players doing suboptimal builds even though it's easy to proof some are just better. Just look at 9 overlord vs 10 overlord for example, 9 is strictly better but some still do 10. Many players don't bother to take a analytical view at build orders including the pro's as lots of times it doesn't really matter much. It can also be argued that the difference between pool and hatch first is too small to really matter and that personal preferences are more important.
Pool first builds are more "hungry", you can't allow yourself to produce anything but drones for a good period of time, while with hatch first, you get more minerals early on, so you can spend some of them on early defenses if needed.
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Another reason for a hatch first is being able to place a spine crawler or 2 at your natural earlier to deal with a timming push on the natural (as opposed to being pushed while your natural is building).
I highly favor pool first too, but its certainly not stricly better.
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On May 06 2010 01:42 Thamoo wrote:
Another reason for a hatch first is being able to place a spine crawler or 2 at your natural earlier to deal with a timming push on the natural (as opposed to being pushed while your natural is building).
I highly favor pool first too, but its certainly not stricly better.
I think it's easier to just poop a creep tumor with your Queen instead of the second batch of larvae. On most maps it'll get creep to the expo more than fast enough.
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@ proom, you're wrong hatch first builds DON'T get more minerals early on.... Don't state something without some proper backup.
@ thamoo, i agree there are some small benefits to hatch first but they are really small and the benefits of the pool first really outweigh these I think. Offcourse when one build has some unique benefit you can never speak of strictly better anymore but it almost is the case really.
@ ema, using creep tumor too early isn't really advisable as you effectively wasted 4 eggs by doing so. If somehow your build has a overproduction of larvae your making some mistakes, perhaps your getting the 2nd queen too early and should make a few extra drones instead first. Remember that it costs minerals to produce these extra larvae but they don't generate anything if you don't use them, ergo builds that can easily miss larvae are flawed.
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What about the transition to lair. Will hatch -> pool -> 2x queen -> lair be faster or slower than pool -> hatch -> queen -> 2nd queen from main -> lair?
It seems like hatch first would be faster to hit lair, and subsequently better against the risk of void rays or other air units.
Plus how does the larva compare for the mid game, something around an immortal push time. It seems like hatch first would have more available larva at a comparable # of drones since that 2nd queen comes out earlier.
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On May 06 2010 04:44 Logo wrote:
What about the transition to lair. Will hatch -> pool -> 2x queen -> lair be faster or slower than pool -> hatch -> queen -> 2nd queen from main -> lair?
It seems like hatch first would be faster to hit lair, and subsequently better against the risk of void rays or other air units.
Plus how does the larva compare for the mid game, something around an immortal push time. It seems like hatch first would have more available larva at a comparable # of drones since that 2nd queen comes out earlier.
Depends on the gaz timming actually. Theres a big differance between Pool > extractor > hatch and Pool > hatch > extractor.
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I used to play pool first extensively and I'm still telling you hands down, hatch first has always given me a MUCH stronger eco. I've found it much better it not only handling 2 gate rushes (unles they are proxied). In actuality, I go 14 hatch because I get gas extremely late. I get my second queen and stay on minerals forever, and build only lings to defend an initial push. I usually get 3 queens early game as well, the extra is for any anti-air/hellions/creep tumors/reapers, etc. With the fast second queen, you pump out an insanely strong number of drones. You literally just can't do that with a pool first build, I've tried it.
EDIT: The reason very well may possibly be mental though from SC1. In a pool first build, the reason you got the pool first was to get lings out as soon as the pool was done to counter cheese and then pressure hte enemy. Most people do the same thing in SC2. How many of you when you 13-14-15 pool build lings as soon as your pool is done? 14 hatch you continue droning much longer before you build lings. If you're not building any lings when your pool is done (at all) I can imagine pool first MIGHT be better. But I've still had far superior results in hatch first than pool first against all nonproxies, and I was around a rank ~1800 plat before hte reset (although I never once peaked, everytime I played my score would go up another 30-40 points, I just didn't play enough to see where I'd cap off).
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EPT
