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I am having trouble on the new map incineration zone against zerg where they FE and mass banelings(also this was my first game on this map). I decided to make this thread after I successful destroyed the FE hatch the second it came up with 6 marines and 2 reapers. He off coarse already making mass zerglings killed my little squad the second I destroyed the hatchery. But I came out on top feeling good that he wasted 300 minerals(Plus the 12 drones mining there and 10 zerglings I manged to kill) while I lost my reapers(as I always do) and 6 marines.
Well that was short lived as he made every living zergling he had into a baneling and raped my base and all units(m+m).
Now my real question is what is a good counter to mass baneling? I have been using marauders with concussive to slow them down, but that seems ineffective against about 15 of them and when they have speed upgrade. Should I mass hellion? Tanks? I just don't know. All help is appreciated.
No replay is required as I just want to know the counter to mass banelings. I just used that as an example of my excitement of YEAH BOY to uh new entry to www.fmylife.com.
Thanks.
http://www.mediafire.com/?2znmmzzizmr
Here is the replay.
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Hellions, lots of Hellions.
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Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings
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U could also try on incineration to build a bunker in the tiny spot leading from his base to your base as it is the way hes likely gonna take to attack you. It wont stop him but if hes on attack move hes gonna was alot of bannelings for your 100 bunker.
Also since you got your answers lets qq about that stupid small choke whenever i play pvp and im gonna push him he alwais forcefields that spot and im stuck. RAGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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marauder + marines together do ok but you have to micro the marines away from the banelings and make sure that only marauders take the hits, if u cant do that then HELLIONS ;D
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On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings
I thought banelings weren't considered light.
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A couple of tanks absolutely murder large clumps of banelings; you don't need to mass them, but a few will go a long way. Hellions are effective too.
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On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings
Banelings are not light. However, hellions are still pretty good against them, mainly because hellions are so big and awkward that banelings only hit 1 of them when they explode, and are thus not very cost effective.
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aside from what m3rciless said, theres also the factor that hellions are fast and deal line damage, but damage wise its as good as any to kill banelings
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On April 26 2010 12:02 Lemure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings I thought banelings weren't considered light.
Where'd you get that idea from?
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On April 26 2010 11:40 Fruscainte wrote:
Hellions, lots of Hellions.
hellions dont really work that well against banelings and technically banelings actually counter hellions since hellions are light and banelings are not. the best counter i seen to banelings is tanks since tanks can one shot a entire group of banelings easily. if u want to stop[ banelings ur best bet is tanks and marauders for slowdown/meat shields.
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On April 26 2010 12:12 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 12:02 Lemure wrote:On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings I thought banelings weren't considered light. Where'd you get that idea from?
Reality....
With a bit of micro you can make banelings very ineffective vs an MnM ball, the idea is to get one or two isolated marauders to lead the attack, a marauder can take something like 8 banelings. If you manage to avoid splashing the rest of your army, you will come out way ahead after all their banelings remove 1-2 marauders.
Hellions are not so great without micro as they are classed as light and banelings receive a substantial attack bonus versus them.
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On April 26 2010 12:22 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 12:12 Jyvblamo wrote:On April 26 2010 12:02 Lemure wrote:On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings I thought banelings weren't considered light. Where'd you get that idea from? Reality....
I was referring to Lemure's post.
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If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy.
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On April 26 2010 14:03 k!llua wrote:
If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy.
....I have never thought of that.
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ghost's snipe can work too, you just have to have good mirco.
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spread out your marines and marauders so they all won't get splashed and have better macro
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I can tell everyone saying helions has actually never tried them. Helions are light and take extra from banelings. Banelings take no extra damage from helions. Helions can't attack without being very close to the baneling. Banelings deal damage when they die. Anyone see the connection here?
The only way to beat banelings is either armored units, tanks, or air units. If you dont have any of these (such as your scenario where u have marines and reapers) and banelings are headed towards you, you're fucked.
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Hellions aren't really the answer, as newbcake points out. One of the strongest zerg offenses is the baneling-bust, and a sufficient number of hellions isn't really available at that point in the game.
Also, banelings become increasingly less effective, at least against the terran "ball" as the game drags on longer and longer, for the most part. They're quite difficult to fight against for quite some time into the game though...
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I think helions are a good counter to the baneling bust. Having the banelings hit the helions are better than having them hit rines. All the banelings are usually dead after they hit the wall during a baneling bust and maybe there's 2 or 3 left so having the helions to deal with the lings is good since you can't really get enough stuff out to deal with them any other way right? My terran isn't so good but when I'm zerg thors give me hell on incineration zone or you could go tank marauder.
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Hellions are weak to banelings. Do not make them with the intention of killing banelings. Banelings kill hellions! Pre-infernal igniter does nothing to banelings. Banelings are not light units nor armored units. Marauders can soak up hits with banelings. Try getting them positioned in the front to soak up baneling damage. If you can get a siege mode tank in time, it will stop baneling busts completely if you target the banelings unless youre opponent does some kind of sick baneling spread while busting.
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microed hellions > banelings.
noob hellions < banelings
sieged tanks > a lot of banelings
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If you are losing to banelings do to an early bust, all you need is a decent sim city(I add another supply behind sometimes so that the choke point is smaller when they send lings in).
If you are losing to banelings in the mid-late game, you really shouldn't since a large amount of terran units should obliterate them quite fast. Hard counter would be tanks though, 2-3 with target firing will obliterate them.
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On April 26 2010 15:20 imBLIND wrote:
microed hellions > banelings.
noob hellions < banelings
sieged tanks > a lot of banelings
I'll just add that speedling + baneling > microed hellions. At least in my experience.
Now maybe microed igniter hellions > that? Who knows, but it would be interesting to see the timing in that game.
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On April 26 2010 14:26 newbcake wrote:
I can tell everyone saying helions has actually never tried them. Helions are light and take extra from banelings. Banelings take no extra damage from helions. Helions can't attack without being very close to the baneling. Banelings deal damage when they die. Anyone see the connection here?
The only way to beat banelings is either armored units, tanks, or air units. If you dont have any of these (such as your scenario where u have marines and reapers) and banelings are headed towards you, you're fucked.
Your name is very accurate in this regard^^;. Newbcake aside, hellions are a perfect counter to banelings unless you just a-move them. Banelings move slower than hellions and hellions don't have to be "very close to the baneling" to attack them. Just run back, press s (stop), watch the flames, run back, press s, etc.
As for incineration zone, that map has a very short rush distance which is why alot of zerg opt for banelings. The thing that stops an early baneling bust (using banelings to kill your walloff and then zerglings run into your base) is to make something more than just a supply depot as a wall. Usually the initial wall would be 2 depots and a barracks, just add a factory to the wall, or double up your depots, or even put marauders on hold position behind the depots. That way even when banelings come they won't carry enough oompf to open up your wall. A well-timed baneling bust will come just a tiiiny bit before your hellions pop out, this buys you time to get them.
I go 1rax(tech lab) into 1fac(reactor) into command center as a standard in TvZ and marauder/hellion works against anything that isn't pure roach or mutalisk. Don't even need the igniter upgrade.
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strong building placement beats the baneling bust from a defensive standpoint. They can break through supply depots and bunkers but are incredibly not cost efficient trying to break a wall comprised of mostly factories and barracks'. On the offensive Helions with decent micro do wonders. They do not deal bonus damage vs the banelings but will vs the zerglings. Later on large numbers of siege tanks will kill them before they get close enough to explode. Marauders with strong micro can take the hits cost effectively but then don't do very well against the zerglings that often accompany them.
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On April 26 2010 14:03 k!llua wrote:
If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy.
I don't think this idea is getting the kind of love it should. I have to try this.
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The thing i find useful about hellions with regard to the baneling bust is that they come out in time to catch your opponent preparing for it, and then even if the bust breaks your wall with good positioning you can use a couple rauders to block while the hellions destroy (most of) the speedlings.
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On April 26 2010 15:52 FMGustave wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 14:03 k!llua wrote:
If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy. I don't think this idea is getting the kind of love it should. I have to try this.
I think that's because that idea doesn't work =P. I mean I haven't tried it myself, but banelings don't "overexplode" on targets like scourge did in sc1. One mule is dead after 2 banelings explode on it. Not a good tradeoff =P. Banelings splash doesn't damage friendly units either
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SC2 AI stops all of them from attacking at once, nor do they splash damage themselves. But that would be fucking awesome if it worked.
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I actually just posted a video on how to deal with this. You just have to play super safe and scout. It's VERY easy to tell if a Zerg is going to Baneling you and how to stop it. Most ladder Zergs play this way so it's super easy to get points off of them. The better Zergs don't do banelings at all.
http://www.own3d.tv/user/gosucoaching#/watch/25606
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Build three bunkers, put one marine in each bunker. Always counters Banelings.
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If the zerg has got a large banelings,hydra,roach army, then hellions are 100% waste of money, so the answer to this post is HSM only, there is no other counter. Thats Zerg for you!
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Tanks tanks and more tanks. Tanks in siege mode rape banelings and will absorb hits nicely. Unsieged tanks are still fairly effective although much less. Hellions are light and actually will get decimated by banelings unless you manage to stay out of range. When a zerg takes a speedling/baneling army and attacks you, you will not be able to run your bio + hellions around perfectly and those banelings will roll you.
Honestly banelings are ridiculously strong vs Tbio as long as you have even or greater numbers. Unfortunately I find mech to be very situational and map dependant. Mass roach is just too strong vs it. Bio is probably the best way to play right now but mass baneling is just insane to deal with.
Edit to avoid double post:
Psyonic: I don't think OP is referring to the "baneling bust" which is a very easy strat to deal with. Baneling busts are characterized by excessive speedling counts and no expansion. OP is referring to a game where he faced a zerg who went FE into baneling/speedling, lost the FE but countered and won.
I think the bigger problem with T bio is not allin baneling bust but just midgame use of banelings in general. They're so stupid strong when used correctly.
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On April 26 2010 14:03 k!llua wrote:
If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy.
DON'T try this.
It doesn't work, banelings do not (directly) overkill, the MULE is a light unit with 60 hp
=
2 banelings will explode...not worth it at all.
sorry to rain on your parade
Zerg won't be happy
you're right, they will be lolling their asses off at you feeding them MULEs 
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On April 26 2010 14:09 Xinliben wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 14:03 k!llua wrote:
If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy. ....I have never thought of that.
except they only explode 1 at a time.
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wall in with factory + depot and barrack
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Let's be honest early-game counter to mass banelings is stimmed mass marauders. With a bit of micro you will decimate all of them.
Later on tanks are effective.
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Marauders with Stim work pretty well with Concussion and backup/fire etc. I think Hellions is the best answer if you can get them in time, but usually I go the route of Marauders with Stim.
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if you get the chance to grab ghosts, do it. 12 +12 to light
fill a bunker with 6 ghosts? yea bro. that fucks banelings up
EDIT - definitely not the most cost effective, but ghosts can provide snipe later on, which versus zerg is veeery nice to have. snipe ovies or queens or even the army
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Unfortunately, most of the above posters are just theorycrafting.
To beat mass Banelings, all you need are Marines, Mauraders, and good micro. Have a few of the Mauraders be shock absorbers as you dance your marines back, focus firing on the nearest Banelings as they approach. This works against mass Banelings, with zerging/roach support. If they have hydras, you should have stim+tanks or Thors, and the mass Baneling threat should be more than over by that stage of the game.
I advice all of you theory crafters who suggest mass Hellions, or Tanks, to go play the game. Mass Banelings comes much sooner than you can mass enough Tanks to splash them away. Hellions are only suitable if they seem to be going a primarily Zergling army, but you would be playing base defense, giving up map control, and eventually the game.
Once again, to the Original Poster, your problem seems to be a micro issue only.
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On April 26 2010 12:08 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings Banelings are not light. However, hellions are still pretty good against them, mainly because hellions are so big and awkward that banelings only hit 1 of them when they explode, and are thus not very cost effective.
In my experience I like using speed banelings AGAINST hellions. They melt them so fast if you flank correctly. Just use marauders and kite them with stim while running your marines away
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Target firing/sniping the banelings works in small numbers and if they're trying to bust your wall up a ramp.
It shouldn't work out in the field, especially if you're being assaulting with lings and mutas as well though - there's just too much stuff to click on. The mutas often obscure the banelings, and only a few need to get through to completely wreck your marines.
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Ok, here's a simple task for you people.
Open SC2, start a custom game vs AI, play Zerg and click on a baneling.
It is neither armoured NOR light, like the Queens.
This is so it can stay 30 health (ie, vulnerable to everything) but not be vulnerable by a specific unit type so they've actually got a chance to make it to the other side.
Hellions do not destroy banelings. If you can micro it well in a set baneling vs hellion fight then they stand pretty good odds (especially if it's off creep and pre-bling speed) but in a huge battle this is impractical, so no. Hellions are great vs lings, medicore vs hydras and excellent for scouting the map, searching for expansions and harassing their workers. They will not help you much vs lings.
What will? well, if he hasn't got infestors then Thor's are an option. They are big and bulky, take up a lot of room and soak up a lot of damage. Just today a guy ran 20+ banelings at me and slammed into my 2 thors parked at the front from which it was G-fucking-G for him. Also, put your marines on a separate hotkey; they are the only ones that really get hurt by banelings. In the above example, I had foolishly not done that but the first thing I did when I spotted the sudden baneling mass was ctrl + click the marine portrait and sent them to the back.
Other then that, you've got to make sure he doesn't sneak up around the sides (good scouting, hellions are useful here!) or pin your marines with an infestor (VERY difficult to counter, pretty much impossible unless you want to invest in ghosts and who the fuck wants to do that? Might as well spend that gas on marauders instead)
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Siege tank IMO - They 1 shot banelings and do splash. 2-3 can decimate a large group of them.
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How do you stop 1 base all in baneling bust if you are going for Siege? I have lost twice because they get there before siege mode is done researching. I basically spam marines until first tank pops and spread out army but still fail. Should I pop out Hellions first (maybe 2) then tanks after siege mode is done? Also how many banelings would it take to kill barracks/factory? maybe I should wall in with those 2 exclusively?
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Against baneling bust you NEED to wall in with fat buildings, or you'll lose.
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On April 27 2010 01:16 Polska wrote:
How do you stop 1 base all in baneling bust if you are going for Siege? I have lost twice because they get there before siege mode is done researching. I basically spam marines until first tank pops and spread out army but still fail. Should I pop out Hellions first (maybe 2) then tanks after siege mode is done? Also how many banelings would it take to kill barracks/factory? maybe I should wall in with those 2 exclusively?
Yea just wall with rax/factory or rax/rax.. Impossible to break as zerg.
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it's straight forward rock, paper, scissor.
hellions own pure banelings with micro, but it's likely the zerg has some roaches which will make any micro attempt pretty impossible.
if he's got no anti-air then use a single banshee to snipe them.
safer option = tanks.
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On April 27 2010 01:35 Tropics wrote:
Against baneling bust you NEED to wall in with fat buildings, or you'll lose.
Block the top of your ramp with 2 marauders, and lol when zerg attackmoves his baneling in first
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Marauder, Thor, Marauder + helion (marauder in front). Walloff with rax+factory is a plus.
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Before you have tanks: Micro your marines to run away.
After you have tanks: Push slowly.
I never wall off with a factory. You need to complete your wall early to be safe from zergling rushes. If you scout 1 base play, just make a bunker behind your wall.
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I've found that an effective way to deal with banelings is suiciding single units into the swarm. If you have a ball of marines being chased just pull 1 or 2 out of the pack and send them to their maker with the banelings.
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On April 26 2010 14:03 k!llua wrote:
If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy.
Haha damn thats good.
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I have to agree with other posters who said you don't need anything special vs banelings.
Because they arent particularly vulnerable to any damage type, the regular marine/marauder combo takes care of them as well as anything else. You have to remember to spread your forces around though, keep marauders in front and target firing the last banelings.
If you know a baneling bust is coming, throw up a bunker at your nat, but in a way so your forces behind the wall can shoot enemy forces attacking it.
The good thing about deflecting it with MMM, is that Z has to transition to something very quickly or get demolished in the counterattack, once your stim and shields finish (as well as +1 defense or attack).
PS: yeah suiciding single units also works, keep 2-3 scvs / marines in front of your army, so they take at least 3-5 baneling hits and you're set for mid game.
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Sc2 Armory is wrong, check in the actual game or Liquipedia II.
On May 10 2010 21:02 CashmoneyZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 14:03 k!llua wrote:
If you manage to spot a huge baneling army just sitting on the map somewhere, drop a MULE right into the middle of the banelings and watch some explosions. Zerg won't be happy. Haha damn thats good.
goddammit read people:
DON'T try this.
It doesn't work, banelings do not (directly) overkill, the MULE is a light unit with 60 hp
=
2 banelings will explode...not worth it at all.
sorry to rain on your parade
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its amazing how much people in this thread just say random things without knowing anything :/
banelings esp with infestors are so damn scary tvz. but only "safeish" bet are tanks. as others said some lucky tank shots can instagib quite big numbers of banelings (entirely possible to kill like 10 banelings with 2 tankshots) . have your MM lined up iinfront and kite with thought so the tanks get off as much shots as possible before you finally engage in the direct fight.
tanks are imho key tvz anyways. dunno why so many people neglect them. even just 4 tanks in the back providing support fire will do so much against anything Z has on ground since they deal full dmg to evrything now.
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its still the same really.
ALL terran units counter banelings. However, its very very reliant on your ability to micro.
Tanks and rauders counter banelings with very little unit control
However marines and hellions can get the job done, assuming you are good at controlin em!
Remember, if a banelings doesnt get 2+ rines in its splash, you win in the trade, both resource wise and larvae wise. So always play aggressive. always yearn for the better arc. and do not battle when your unit is squashed up.
Theres nothing more to it.
its basically lurker v II . micro, or die.
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just throwing ideas here, how about speed reapers?
if you set up a group of like 3/4 on a cliff overlooking your entrance, and as they are rolling in, jump down, pick off a whole lot, and jump back up
pro's: they fire fast, they move fast they can dodge explosions by jumping off/on cliffs, and is low tier. and if its succesfull you're superfast at their base for easy drone killing
con's: they are as bulletproof as wet paper, so need awsome micro
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if you go reapers to counter banelings then you're doing exactly what the zerg players wants... failing.
make something which you can use to turn against him after the banelings are dealt with.
tanks, marauders and micro.
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On April 26 2010 12:08 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings Banelings are not light. However, hellions are still pretty good against them, mainly because hellions are so big and awkward that banelings only hit 1 of them when they explode, and are thus not very cost effective.
Stimpacked marines do the trick for me.
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Just had a T go mass hellions against my baneling + zerglin + mutas and it it came down to me using the banelings mobility on the creep w/spine crawlers in order to turtle and hold off his Hellion aggression. The moment I got up 6 mutas it was over.
I don't understand why people are saying Zerg isn't fun...
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If zerg is MASSING banelings, that means all he has is banelings, and however many zerglings that couldn't be converted due to lack of gas, this means you should mass marauder and some marines. One marauder can take a decent amount of baneling hits, so use your marauders as a wall to soak up ALL the banelings and keep your marines simply alive until that's done. When the battle's over you have a small amount of marauders and all your marines opposed to the zerg's completely lack of army, considering it all just exploded on you. GG no re
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On May 10 2010 22:46 optikal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 12:08 m3rciless wrote:On April 26 2010 11:48 Ocedic wrote:
Hellions with igniter upgrade basically destroys banelings Banelings are not light. However, hellions are still pretty good against them, mainly because hellions are so big and awkward that banelings only hit 1 of them when they explode, and are thus not very cost effective. Stimpacked marines do the trick for me.
ye mass rines vs mass banelings!
do you know which game we are talking about?
On May 10 2010 23:16 Frost.stropheum wrote:
If zerg is MASSING banelings, that means all he has is banelings, and however many zerglings that couldn't be converted due to lack of gas, this means you should mass marauder and some marines. One marauder can take a decent amount of baneling hits, so use your marauders as a wall to soak up ALL the banelings and keep your marines simply alive until that's done. When the battle's over you have a small amount of marauders and all your marines opposed to the zerg's completely lack of army, considering it all just exploded on you. GG no re
dont think people have problems with them early. but a well mixed Z army mid-late game(esp with infestors) with a shitton of banelings absolutely rapes any bio T ground force if yout dont have great blockers and tanks backing you up. also you assume Z just aclicks in and wastes all his banelings on 2-3 rauders which doesnt seem like a good plan to me :>
zergs are getting better at mixing their armies which atm makes me a sad panda.
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lol @ people still using sc2armory.com for unit stats.
You know it takes 7 banelings to kill a marauder right? The counter to mass banelings is mass marauders. Just don't clump all your marauders in the same group like an idiot and you should be fine.
Also if you opened mech, thors counter banelings and so do sieged tanks.
lastly if you went air then raven's w/ seeker missile counter banelings. I think banelings can only outrun SM if they have speed upgrade and are also on creep.
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So many wierd advice in this topic :S
marauders die to banelings, marines die to banelings, helions die to banelings no matter how good your micro is cause they got twice your speed on the creep anyway.
Your best solution is tanks sieged up behind your main army and try to poke the banelings with m&m then snipe a few and run back to your tanks and split. Alos thors can work but 3 gas zerg can easely make some investors to take over the thors so I wouldnt really advice that. Whatever you do dont ever go mass marauders/marines cause its the worst thing ever.
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My advice is to build up ur wall more (if you wall) that should kill any sort of early baneling bust. If he wants to pump lots of banelings all game, switch to banshee or thor (Thor probably is not best since zerglings counter it.) and roll with maybe a small M&M&M. (Siege tanks would do great also, for a push and defend. Just be sure to scout a spire and react if thats the case.
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Best luck I've had vs banelings is to try and keep your marines behind your marauders at the start of engagments. Unfortunately since marines have 1 less range than marauders this does require a bit of micro. It doesn't assure you victory, but if you go in with marines first you will never win vs a baneling supported army of similar cost.
Baneling AI is very smart they won't over-kill a target just like siege tanks. Also killing them simply prematurely triggers the explosion, they will still deal the AoE damage, which a lot of players don't realize. If the banelings are up on your bio ball "looking" for a target killing them DOES NOT stop the damage.
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EPT
