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I'm having an incredibly difficult time dealing with "cheese" strategies. Whether they should be in the game or not, or called cheese or not the fact is they will always be there and it is so frustrating to lose to it, nearly all the time.
What am I to do or how can I increase my survivability from cheeses as a zerg player?
For example, I just played desert oasis against a protoss and with one of his original probes he went straight below my base made a pylon then made 2 gateways. He proceeded to chrono boost zealots out of it and absolutely cheesed me. I can't scout the entire map, and by the time i get to his base with either the overlord or a drone it's already too late. (but yes i know when i get there and there is only a pylon the cheese is incoming but I have no time to react)
Am I suppose to be 10 pooling or something? My standard opening is 13 or 14 pool. I literally didnt have one zergling when he had 2 zealots in my base.
It's not only protoss but even against other zergs they 6-8 pool and by the time a scout gets there its over. Again I guess the question is, should I be 6-8 pooling myself? 10 pooling?
Sorry if I sound frustrated but this game is amazing as long as it goes past the 5 minute mark. The majority of my losses are from cheese strats/all ins.
Im currently Gold rank 2 (float in the top 5) and play zerg.
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It sounds to me like a lot of your problems could be fixed by sending out your tenth drone to scout. If you don't see a pylon in the protoss base, you know they are about to cheese you (or are just insanely bad.) On 1v1 maps, I think you should also be able to see his probe on its way to your base while your overlord moves out to his. If you see a probe moving in on the minimap, that never ends up in your base, thats a pretty good indication he is trying something funny. On 4 player maps, I send my scout to the other two bases the overlord isn't checking.
Personally for me in ZVZ, I build my overlord, morph 1 drone, then go for spawning pool (then drones). Every time I have been 8 pooled from that, I have been able to get zerglings or a queen out just in time. (But maybe the people who did this to me sucked?) You have to pull drones and have them help, he is pretty far behind if you fend off that rush.
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I tend to do a pretty standard 13 pool, and with a little micro, it gets me through against nearly any cheese. When are you scouting? I normally send a drone at 10 supply, just to make sure I can spot any cheese. Most of the time the 13 pool comes with enough time anyway, but on some very small maps you may want to scout earlier and 10 pool if you see something coming.
You shouldn't have to scout the entire map for proxies; if you see no buildings in a protoss or terran players base, just turn the drone around and expect the proxy and start spamming out Lings or Roaches.
Certain buildings will key you in to suspecting some cheese as well, like a really early gas and tech lab for Terran; heads up, Reaper's might be coming. Just learn to spot the little indicators that tell you what is on the way.
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Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad.
If you want a cheeseproof build, go over10pool. If you scout everything normal, you can just wait on lings and make drones instead and you're not very behind. If you do get cheesed you'll be in a much better position to stop it.
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Hey man, Raynor here. Them cheesy boys been getting on my nerves as well. Thing is, as soon as you see with your scout their suspicious base, start massing your first unit, that way you can overpower the opponent's initial army by making a bigger one yourself, and since cheese builds are most of the time all-in you pretty much win if you defend the first few minutes, alright?
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I almost always have and scv out on the map to scout around at places I wouldnt normaly scout just to be at the safe side. Since its harder to notice if anything is missing in sc2 then in sc1, I find it very important.
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On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote:
Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps.
I couldn't disagree with a statement more. You're telling me that if a zerg 5 pools in BW on any map, that map is bad. You're also telling me that if a played goes proxy gate or racks on any map in either game, the map is bad. I'm pretty sure every pro starcraft player ever would have an issue with your statement, if they didn't just outright dismiss it immediately.
Also, where do you get the figure 90%? Where are you also finding all these players who cheese relentlessly?
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You just need a good scouting pattern with your overlords and a drone. Move your first overlord not directly to the other player's base, but in the general direction while looking for possible proxy spots. When you get a drone to spare, before you scout with that, you do the same thing, looking for proxy spots along the way. That's all you can do, and you can get good enough to really spot any proxy. It's just another skill you have to master like anything else in the game.
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On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote:
Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad.
If you want a cheeseproof build, go over10pool. If you scout everything normal, you can just wait on lings and make drones instead and you're not very behind. If you do get cheesed you'll be in a much better position to stop it.
What??
If so, all of the BW maps are bad design aswell 
Especially the ones played in the leagues...
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Floophead, I'm not sure I've seen a constructive post from you, ever. You seem to think you have some secret knowledge of the game that nobody else does, and that it allows you to make ridiculous claims not backed up by anything.
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i would REALLY like to see a replay of you 13 pooling and losing to cheese, its like not like a 9pool safe compared to BW but more of a 9op kinda safe...maybe 12pool... but the point is that with simple micro you should be fine if you get those fast lings.
you can also try scouting as soon as you start your frist OL.
but tbh just sounds like any old "omfg 9/10 toss imba" or "i keep getting 4pooled" its gonna happen a lot and like BW people gonna complain and moan about it and like BW they are gonna learn how to block it so effectively that people now can 12hatch vs toss on any god damn man without fear of losing to cheese because its happened so much and they have learned to block it.
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Zurich15328 Posts
You can not prevent cheese. You can only react to it. To do this:
1) Scout.
2) Play more games.
1 will provide you with information. 2 will provide you with knowledge on how to use this information.
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Dealing with a proxy 2 gate shouldn't be too bad off a 13 pool. Immediately sunken your mineral line, get your gas and queen, go for roaches and keep threatening to take out the proxy pylon so he has to split his lots.
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Play random, you get cheesed so much less its rediclous
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Desert Oasis is my most successful map, and there's one reason - I really, really hate playing on it and I cheese 95% of the time. People simply suck at defending it.
Here's what you have to do on Oasis as Z to easily prevent P cheeses:
First: Scouting. Yeah, you can't scout everywhere, but it's not like the P can place his proxy everywhere. You have to be mindful of 3 places: Below / behind your mineral line, next to / behind the nat expo, and next to the long ridge close to the lefternmost / righternmost (depending on your spawn location) Xel'Naga tower (placing a pylon here to place 2 gates in your main is common occurrence).
Second: Do not overreact! I can't stress this enough. Often the Z scouts my build and immediately pulls off 8 drones to attack my pylon / gateways. The hell?! I can just build another pylon, and you won't destroy the gate(s) in time thanks to chrono boost (this isn't BW). Stay calm, keep mining, save up larvae for lings and toss down 2 spine crawlers as soon as your pool is ready.
After this, all you have to do is dance your lings on creep where my zealots can't catch it, micro your drones so you don't lose them while your spine crawlers build, and I'm free to tap out. With the new spine crawlers it's almost impossible to overpower zerg 1-base defenses with a proxy, unless you keep losing lings or drones for no reason.
Good luck!
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If you are dying to proxy rush strats like this, you can try a 10 or 11 overpool instead of 13. The pool(and queen) will pop out about 15s faster, the cost being around 130 minerals of temporary lost econ (that you will struggle to spend anyway due to larva) for an 11 overpool vs 13. Up to you if you think that's worth it.
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On small maps like steppes or blistering, I usually 10 pool before overlord, then extractor trick then overlord.
I own 6 pool rushes and the likes. And this doesn't hurt the economy too much since the queen will be really early spewing shit on my hatch.
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just some basic stuff:
- a playe who is favored won't cheese in most cases. it's the gamers who are afraif of mid/lategame who will try to all-in as their chance decrease with time. when you are favored scout even earlier and be very cautious
- scout a lot and early on small maps, and play 10vs z on small maps.
-don't drone up until 16 and queen then when you smell somethin, like a lot of players do. save 3 larvae and make an overlord in time to squeeze out 6 lings.
-after the all-in time (6-8pool, offgates/rax) you should be fine anyways. roaches pretty much carry you to midgame and even further.
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IMO cheesing is a very nice part of StarCraft. Isn't it supposed to be like that? Better strat wins the game.
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I like like 20% games to be cheese, maybe 10%, not 75% like it is right now
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If you drone scout on 9 or 10 it's not too late. If you want to be safe pool decently early (12 or earlier i'd say, though i'm not 100% sure on the timings) and never make a hatch in your nat until you're sure of the situation by scouting. Once you drone scout and see nothing, it should be obvious to you that you need to be making zerglings and maybe a spine crawler or two.
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On April 06 2010 15:52 Blackjackbob wrote:What am I to do or how can I increase my survivability from cheeses as a zerg player?
For example, I just played desert oasis against a protoss and with one of his original probes he went straight below my base made a pylon then made 2 gateways. He proceeded to chrono boost zealots out of it and absolutely cheesed me. I can't scout the entire map, and by the time i get to his base with either the overlord or a drone it's already too late. (but yes i know when i get there and there is only a pylon the cheese is incoming but I have no time to react)
Scout more and often. Overlords do not replace an early drone scout.
If you don't know what they're doing, you'll just be surprised at every turn.
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On April 06 2010 17:45 zatic wrote:
You can not prevent cheese. You can only react to it. To do this:
1) Scout.
2) Play more games.
1 will provide you with information. 2 will provide you with knowledge on how to use this information.
There are very common proxy locations on each map. Based on the time it takes the units produced there to get to your base, you should scout these locations at a time dependent on which proxy you may be expecting (e.g. before scouting or after scouting their main).
I got proxied 3 PvT's last night against top terran players in a row and spotted two of three of them. One of them was at a spot on the way to the opponent's base on a two player map, i checked with my 9/10 scout (I do that every game because cheese is too popular - sometimes 8/10 if I know that player is particularly cheesy). One of them was at a common reaper-rax building spot between two bases, and the third one I realized after not seeing a regular SCV count on my 9/10.
Experience will do wonders, I rarely lose to proxies - and I accept playing with a worse economy in most of my games since I know my mechanics/micro/macro will make up for it at some point. I think because SC2 design is so prone to cheese, eventually both players in high level games will always scout for cheese in every match (or most matches).
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It's fairly easy to figure out the standard cheese spots where ppl put their gateways and such (for example, i did whoop someone's ass with this very strat just yesterday). As for playing zerg, you should check the very closest spots with your 10th drone scout (you can extractor trick to get another drone mining a bit sooner). Obviously you can't scout the whole map, but you can send the ovies so that they scout the most likely cheese spots as well and 10 scout does show it fairly early.
After that, you can make one or two spine crawlers and pump lings and try to tech to roaches which annihilate the zlots and after that it should be a cakewalk. After spining up you could also try to sneak a few lings past (if you can spare) cuz protoss main is wide open and you can probably kill him with 4 lings or so, since he's bound to be low on econ.
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i play Z too and took some time to learn how to adept to cheese:
1. know what cheese is viable on what map for any race
example: you will see more 6pool on short distance maps and some kind of canons below your mineral line vs. protoss on desert oasis while scrap station just favores void/banshee rush by design!
2. watch replays again and again when you got cheesed and memorize timeings and locations
3. always scout not later than your 10th drone (i do 9 over, 10 drone and as soon as that 10th drone is ordered i move on drone to scout) on maps where you know there could be cheese
4. combine 1-3 and dont send your scout just into the enemy base but KNOW hat you actually want to scout, what you are looking for. this point is important in any game! dont scout because u just scout... scout with an purpose. intelligent scouting will help you a lot more than "normal scouting"
(5. dont forget to add production buildings over time even if you dont plan to build those units right away. example: if you are going speedlings its very good to spent 150minerals inbetween unit production to get an roach warren. doing this puts you always ahead on reaction times for army composition switches and your wont get overun as often. getting a spire when you are about to take your third expansin might be a good idea even when your army consists of roach/hydra and your dont see i.e. collosi out yet but its really worth to have the option and will safe a lot of critical time when things go bad)
hope this was somehow helpfull
Zira
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send out an early drone... a VERY early drone.
and for the love of god, don't EVER supply block yourself.
ggl
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My friends and I played WC3 in 3 different ladder seasons and reached top 20 USEast 3v3 each time. Every time we played, each game turned in to "discover what gay shit they are going to try to do." Be it two players feeding a third, tower rushing, mass tower turtle, rush 3 summon heroes etc etc. I'm not ready to say that cheese doesn't "add" to the game but I can definitively say that it removed all of the fun for us after awhile every time.
In starcraft 2, I feel that most cheeses can be countered in 1v1s. In 2v2, it can get significantly harder and it worries me what will be possible in 3v3 and 4v4.
In my opinion, cheese is not fun. For me, it does not diversify the game. If I didn't want to play "build a base and create an army", I'd go play a custom map. It's my hope that cheese does not become overly viable in 1v1 and 2v2.
And even if cheese can reliably be countered, it does not change the fact that it is not contribute to my personal enjoyment of the game. Countering cheese is mechanical. It is not an exercise in being clever or skillful.
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On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote:
Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad..
Since when are tankdrops cheese? That's a legit tactic that requires foresight and planning to pull off effectively. I think you're not understanding the definition.
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On April 07 2010 00:45 Vexx wrote:
My friends and I played WC3 in 3 different ladder seasons and reached top 20 USEast 3v3 each time. Every time we played, each game turned in to "discover what gay shit they are going to try to do." Be it two players feeding a third, tower rushing, mass tower turtle, rush 3 summon heroes etc etc. I'm not ready to say that cheese doesn't "add" to the game but I can definitively say that it removed all of the fun for us after awhile every time.
In starcraft 2, I feel that most cheeses can be countered in 1v1s. In 2v2, it can get significantly harder and it worries me what will be possible in 3v3 and 4v4.
In my opinion, cheese is not fun. For me, it does not diversify the game. If I didn't want to play "build a base and create an army", I'd go play a custom map. It's my hope that cheese does not become overly viable in 1v1 and 2v2.
And even if cheese can reliably be countered, it does not change the fact that it is not contribute to my personal enjoyment of the game. Countering cheese is mechanical. It is not an exercise in being clever or skillful.
You have a point, but balancing a game like SC for 3v3 and 4v4 is not really very possible or a high priority. The real competition will take place at 1v1 and maybe a bit of 2v2 (I'd like to see this, but we'll see how the scene develops).
There are just too many variables and too much potential for cheese in a 3v3 or 4v4.
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As a Z player, P cheez are probably the most annoying.
When the game starts, send the first overlord to their ramp. Usually if they are doing a standard build, you should see pylons and gateway when the ovie gets there.
Secondly, send the 10th drone to go scout all nearby blind spots. At this point, if you see a probe safest thing to do is FOLLOW it. If the P player is cheesing, they most likely won't want to lose that probe. If you don't see a probe... something fishy is probably going on.
Second overlord should be going behind the mineral line at their natural.
If a cheese is happening, don't overreact.
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i think cheese is okay as well just not in excess like 75% (stated above)
i think that much cheese just sometimes takes out the fun of the game =[
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On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote:
Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad.
If you want a cheeseproof build, go over10pool. If you scout everything normal, you can just wait on lings and make drones instead and you're not very behind. If you do get cheesed you'll be in a much better position to stop it.
maybe 5-10% of cheese wouldn't work if that...
but i do think the maps need to be reworked a little, or just have a broader spectrum of play styles. im sure at launch there will be so much more or even before then.
Almost all the maps right now promote faster style game's. Even the largest map the base's are still very close with no safe nat's. we need some macro oriented maps...
I really hope they bring back the 3spawn maps. and maps with closed off back nat, as well as a easy to protect front.
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On April 07 2010 00:45 Vexx wrote:
In my opinion, cheese is not fun. For me, it does not diversify the game. .
Uhhh.. what?
Cheese IS diversifying the game.
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Cheese is the extreme version of an aggressive play and as a Zerg you might want to watch the first game of "TheLittleOne" against "LiquidNazgul" in the TLI. TheLittleOne expanded, but did NOT get a queen. This proved to be brilliant, because
- an expansion is harder to kill than a queen,
- having two hatcheries allows you to kite attackers between the two (as shown by TLO) and
- two hatcheries provide almost as many larvae as one hatchery with a queen.
So expanding and rushing to Roach seems a viable option to increase survivability, the key to this is the timing and that is decided by scouting and recognizing the early aggression of the opponent. Getting the Roach Warren up seems to be the critical thing there.
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You can just scout really early but then you are at a slight disadvantage vs a normal opening.
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Scout. A lot. More than you might think you need. I made Artosis rage-quit on me on Desert Oasis this weekend because I built my Proxy Gateways just outside the 'usual proxy distance' and he just missed it with his Drone.
And quite frankly, fuck Desert Oasis. If you don't proxy someone on that crapheap, you just get overrun with Banshees or Mutas. Might as well turn it into a quick 5 minute win/loss, rather than a gradual 20 minute one.
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People don't seem to win with cheese vs me very often. I always drone scout with my 10th drone on 2 player maps. Always. Sometimes I pull a second drone and do a circuit around my base just to be sure. That second drone probably costs 15 minerals, but it is worth it.
The first overlord always goes toward the enemy. The second overlord always looks for cheese.
So like in scrap station, first overlord goes over. Second one goes down to the ledge, but it takes the path to the outside of your natural in case there is a barracks or gateway there.
In desert oasis, first overlord goes toward base, second overlord goes up, then toward ramp, then out to nat and then back to choke.
This overlord behavior rewards 9 overlord 10 drone because you get it out a little faster.
If at any point you detect cheese, throw down two spine crawlers the moment your pool completes. Do it next to your hatch, if it turns out there is a cannon/bunker rush you can always move your spine crawlers, but he can't move his cannons/bunker. If you do spot cheese, don't immediately clue your opponent in that you've noticed. Spine crawlers are really good at holding off cheese and if you make him commit to a failed strategy you will win easily with speedlings.
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The expample you just mentioned is easily stoppable with 1 spine crawler and teching to roach, make 4 lings your queen and the crawler and you will survive untill your roaches are up, then jsut micro them a little and its gg
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You're right, but I've had 2 zealots on my crawlers before and had to cancel/remake. I figure whether I make 1 or 2 it is over no matter what, so I might as well be sure.
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On April 06 2010 16:17 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Hey man, Raynor here. Them cheesy boys been getting on my nerves as well. Thing is, as soon as you see with your scout their suspicious base, start massing your first unit, that way you can overpower the opponent's initial army by making a bigger one yourself, and since cheese builds are most of the time all-in you pretty much win if you defend the first few minutes, alright?
lolololol
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On April 06 2010 15:52 Blackjackbob wrote:
I'm having an incredibly difficult time dealing with "cheese" strategies. Whether they should be in the game or not, or called cheese or not the fact is they will always be there and it is so frustrating to lose to it, nearly all the time.
What am I to do or how can I increase my survivability from cheeses as a zerg player?
The very best thing you can do is find a practice partner to cheese you repeatedly.
Figure out what you need to do to hold off the cheese, and then figure out how to work that into your build.
some tips to make this more effective:
- Have an good idea of the "normal" build you want to play. It might not be viable, in which case you'll have to change it, but don't go with a 8 pool before you scout unless that's the game you want to play as standard.
- You want to just barely survive the cheese after playing hard - your "normal" build generally needs to be as economic as you can make it while surviving the early rush.
- Once you've scouted the cheese, don't be afraid to do things that don't fit in with your normal gameplan - spine crawlers, extra queens, whatever beats the cheese.
- Learn to recognize whether cheese is all in. The proxy pylon you're talking about slows protoss teching, but doesn't stop it, so you'll want to be getting to whatever it is that you normally build against protoss eventually, whereas a if you just survive a 6-pool, you win.
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EPT
