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I'm having an incredibly difficult time dealing with "cheese" strategies. Whether they should be in the game or not, or called cheese or not the fact is they will always be there and it is so frustrating to lose to it, nearly all the time.
What am I to do or how can I increase my survivability from cheeses as a zerg player?
For example, I just played desert oasis against a protoss and with one of his original probes he went straight below my base made a pylon then made 2 gateways. He proceeded to chrono boost zealots out of it and absolutely cheesed me. I can't scout the entire map, and by the time i get to his base with either the overlord or a drone it's already too late. (but yes i know when i get there and there is only a pylon the cheese is incoming but I have no time to react)
Am I suppose to be 10 pooling or something? My standard opening is 13 or 14 pool. I literally didnt have one zergling when he had 2 zealots in my base.
It's not only protoss but even against other zergs they 6-8 pool and by the time a scout gets there its over. Again I guess the question is, should I be 6-8 pooling myself? 10 pooling?
Sorry if I sound frustrated but this game is amazing as long as it goes past the 5 minute mark. The majority of my losses are from cheese strats/all ins.
Im currently Gold rank 2 (float in the top 5) and play zerg.
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It sounds to me like a lot of your problems could be fixed by sending out your tenth drone to scout. If you don't see a pylon in the protoss base, you know they are about to cheese you (or are just insanely bad.) On 1v1 maps, I think you should also be able to see his probe on its way to your base while your overlord moves out to his. If you see a probe moving in on the minimap, that never ends up in your base, thats a pretty good indication he is trying something funny. On 4 player maps, I send my scout to the other two bases the overlord isn't checking.
Personally for me in ZVZ, I build my overlord, morph 1 drone, then go for spawning pool (then drones). Every time I have been 8 pooled from that, I have been able to get zerglings or a queen out just in time. (But maybe the people who did this to me sucked?) You have to pull drones and have them help, he is pretty far behind if you fend off that rush.
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I tend to do a pretty standard 13 pool, and with a little micro, it gets me through against nearly any cheese. When are you scouting? I normally send a drone at 10 supply, just to make sure I can spot any cheese. Most of the time the 13 pool comes with enough time anyway, but on some very small maps you may want to scout earlier and 10 pool if you see something coming.
You shouldn't have to scout the entire map for proxies; if you see no buildings in a protoss or terran players base, just turn the drone around and expect the proxy and start spamming out Lings or Roaches.
Certain buildings will key you in to suspecting some cheese as well, like a really early gas and tech lab for Terran; heads up, Reaper's might be coming. Just learn to spot the little indicators that tell you what is on the way.
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Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad.
If you want a cheeseproof build, go over10pool. If you scout everything normal, you can just wait on lings and make drones instead and you're not very behind. If you do get cheesed you'll be in a much better position to stop it.
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Hey man, Raynor here. Them cheesy boys been getting on my nerves as well. Thing is, as soon as you see with your scout their suspicious base, start massing your first unit, that way you can overpower the opponent's initial army by making a bigger one yourself, and since cheese builds are most of the time all-in you pretty much win if you defend the first few minutes, alright?
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I almost always have and scv out on the map to scout around at places I wouldnt normaly scout just to be at the safe side. Since its harder to notice if anything is missing in sc2 then in sc1, I find it very important.
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On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote:
Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps.
I couldn't disagree with a statement more. You're telling me that if a zerg 5 pools in BW on any map, that map is bad. You're also telling me that if a played goes proxy gate or racks on any map in either game, the map is bad. I'm pretty sure every pro starcraft player ever would have an issue with your statement, if they didn't just outright dismiss it immediately.
Also, where do you get the figure 90%? Where are you also finding all these players who cheese relentlessly?
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You just need a good scouting pattern with your overlords and a drone. Move your first overlord not directly to the other player's base, but in the general direction while looking for possible proxy spots. When you get a drone to spare, before you scout with that, you do the same thing, looking for proxy spots along the way. That's all you can do, and you can get good enough to really spot any proxy. It's just another skill you have to master like anything else in the game.
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On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote:
Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad.
If you want a cheeseproof build, go over10pool. If you scout everything normal, you can just wait on lings and make drones instead and you're not very behind. If you do get cheesed you'll be in a much better position to stop it.
What??
If so, all of the BW maps are bad design aswell 
Especially the ones played in the leagues...
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Floophead, I'm not sure I've seen a constructive post from you, ever. You seem to think you have some secret knowledge of the game that nobody else does, and that it allows you to make ridiculous claims not backed up by anything.
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i would REALLY like to see a replay of you 13 pooling and losing to cheese, its like not like a 9pool safe compared to BW but more of a 9op kinda safe...maybe 12pool... but the point is that with simple micro you should be fine if you get those fast lings.
you can also try scouting as soon as you start your frist OL.
but tbh just sounds like any old "omfg 9/10 toss imba" or "i keep getting 4pooled" its gonna happen a lot and like BW people gonna complain and moan about it and like BW they are gonna learn how to block it so effectively that people now can 12hatch vs toss on any god damn man without fear of losing to cheese because its happened so much and they have learned to block it.
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Zurich15328 Posts
You can not prevent cheese. You can only react to it. To do this:
1) Scout.
2) Play more games.
1 will provide you with information. 2 will provide you with knowledge on how to use this information.
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Dealing with a proxy 2 gate shouldn't be too bad off a 13 pool. Immediately sunken your mineral line, get your gas and queen, go for roaches and keep threatening to take out the proxy pylon so he has to split his lots.
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Play random, you get cheesed so much less its rediclous
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Desert Oasis is my most successful map, and there's one reason - I really, really hate playing on it and I cheese 95% of the time. People simply suck at defending it.
Here's what you have to do on Oasis as Z to easily prevent P cheeses:
First: Scouting. Yeah, you can't scout everywhere, but it's not like the P can place his proxy everywhere. You have to be mindful of 3 places: Below / behind your mineral line, next to / behind the nat expo, and next to the long ridge close to the lefternmost / righternmost (depending on your spawn location) Xel'Naga tower (placing a pylon here to place 2 gates in your main is common occurrence).
Second: Do not overreact! I can't stress this enough. Often the Z scouts my build and immediately pulls off 8 drones to attack my pylon / gateways. The hell?! I can just build another pylon, and you won't destroy the gate(s) in time thanks to chrono boost (this isn't BW). Stay calm, keep mining, save up larvae for lings and toss down 2 spine crawlers as soon as your pool is ready.
After this, all you have to do is dance your lings on creep where my zealots can't catch it, micro your drones so you don't lose them while your spine crawlers build, and I'm free to tap out. With the new spine crawlers it's almost impossible to overpower zerg 1-base defenses with a proxy, unless you keep losing lings or drones for no reason.
Good luck!
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If you are dying to proxy rush strats like this, you can try a 10 or 11 overpool instead of 13. The pool(and queen) will pop out about 15s faster, the cost being around 130 minerals of temporary lost econ (that you will struggle to spend anyway due to larva) for an 11 overpool vs 13. Up to you if you think that's worth it.
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On small maps like steppes or blistering, I usually 10 pool before overlord, then extractor trick then overlord.
I own 6 pool rushes and the likes. And this doesn't hurt the economy too much since the queen will be really early spewing shit on my hatch.
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just some basic stuff:
- a playe who is favored won't cheese in most cases. it's the gamers who are afraif of mid/lategame who will try to all-in as their chance decrease with time. when you are favored scout even earlier and be very cautious
- scout a lot and early on small maps, and play 10vs z on small maps.
-don't drone up until 16 and queen then when you smell somethin, like a lot of players do. save 3 larvae and make an overlord in time to squeeze out 6 lings.
-after the all-in time (6-8pool, offgates/rax) you should be fine anyways. roaches pretty much carry you to midgame and even further.
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IMO cheesing is a very nice part of StarCraft. Isn't it supposed to be like that? Better strat wins the game.
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I like like 20% games to be cheese, maybe 10%, not 75% like it is right now
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EPT
