EPT[H] How to prevent cheese - Page 2
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Deleted User 55994
949 Posts
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Kanan
United States56 Posts
On April 06 2010 15:52 Blackjackbob wrote:What am I to do or how can I increase my survivability from cheeses as a zerg player? For example, I just played desert oasis against a protoss and with one of his original probes he went straight below my base made a pylon then made 2 gateways. He proceeded to chrono boost zealots out of it and absolutely cheesed me. I can't scout the entire map, and by the time i get to his base with either the overlord or a drone it's already too late. (but yes i know when i get there and there is only a pylon the cheese is incoming but I have no time to react) Scout more and often. Overlords do not replace an early drone scout. If you don't know what they're doing, you'll just be surprised at every turn. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On April 06 2010 17:45 zatic wrote: You can not prevent cheese. You can only react to it. To do this: 1) Scout. 2) Play more games. 1 will provide you with information. 2 will provide you with knowledge on how to use this information. There are very common proxy locations on each map. Based on the time it takes the units produced there to get to your base, you should scout these locations at a time dependent on which proxy you may be expecting (e.g. before scouting or after scouting their main). I got proxied 3 PvT's last night against top terran players in a row and spotted two of three of them. One of them was at a spot on the way to the opponent's base on a two player map, i checked with my 9/10 scout (I do that every game because cheese is too popular - sometimes 8/10 if I know that player is particularly cheesy). One of them was at a common reaper-rax building spot between two bases, and the third one I realized after not seeing a regular SCV count on my 9/10. Experience will do wonders, I rarely lose to proxies - and I accept playing with a worse economy in most of my games since I know my mechanics/micro/macro will make up for it at some point. I think because SC2 design is so prone to cheese, eventually both players in high level games will always scout for cheese in every match (or most matches). | ||
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Muhweli
Finland5328 Posts
After that, you can make one or two spine crawlers and pump lings and try to tech to roaches which annihilate the zlots and after that it should be a cakewalk. After spining up you could also try to sneak a few lings past (if you can spare) cuz protoss main is wide open and you can probably kill him with 4 lings or so, since he's bound to be low on econ. | ||
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TobZero
Germany493 Posts
1. know what cheese is viable on what map for any race example: you will see more 6pool on short distance maps and some kind of canons below your mineral line vs. protoss on desert oasis while scrap station just favores void/banshee rush by design! 2. watch replays again and again when you got cheesed and memorize timeings and locations 3. always scout not later than your 10th drone (i do 9 over, 10 drone and as soon as that 10th drone is ordered i move on drone to scout) on maps where you know there could be cheese 4. combine 1-3 and dont send your scout just into the enemy base but KNOW hat you actually want to scout, what you are looking for. this point is important in any game! dont scout because u just scout... scout with an purpose. intelligent scouting will help you a lot more than "normal scouting" (5. dont forget to add production buildings over time even if you dont plan to build those units right away. example: if you are going speedlings its very good to spent 150minerals inbetween unit production to get an roach warren. doing this puts you always ahead on reaction times for army composition switches and your wont get overun as often. getting a spire when you are about to take your third expansin might be a good idea even when your army consists of roach/hydra and your dont see i.e. collosi out yet but its really worth to have the option and will safe a lot of critical time when things go bad) hope this was somehow helpfull Zira | ||
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micropede
United States47 Posts
and for the love of god, don't EVER supply block yourself. ggl | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
In starcraft 2, I feel that most cheeses can be countered in 1v1s. In 2v2, it can get significantly harder and it worries me what will be possible in 3v3 and 4v4. In my opinion, cheese is not fun. For me, it does not diversify the game. If I didn't want to play "build a base and create an army", I'd go play a custom map. It's my hope that cheese does not become overly viable in 1v1 and 2v2. And even if cheese can reliably be countered, it does not change the fact that it is not contribute to my personal enjoyment of the game. Countering cheese is mechanical. It is not an exercise in being clever or skillful. | ||
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muzzy
United States640 Posts
On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote: Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad.. Since when are tankdrops cheese? That's a legit tactic that requires foresight and planning to pull off effectively. I think you're not understanding the definition. | ||
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muzzy
United States640 Posts
On April 07 2010 00:45 Vexx wrote: My friends and I played WC3 in 3 different ladder seasons and reached top 20 USEast 3v3 each time. Every time we played, each game turned in to "discover what gay shit they are going to try to do." Be it two players feeding a third, tower rushing, mass tower turtle, rush 3 summon heroes etc etc. I'm not ready to say that cheese doesn't "add" to the game but I can definitively say that it removed all of the fun for us after awhile every time. In starcraft 2, I feel that most cheeses can be countered in 1v1s. In 2v2, it can get significantly harder and it worries me what will be possible in 3v3 and 4v4. In my opinion, cheese is not fun. For me, it does not diversify the game. If I didn't want to play "build a base and create an army", I'd go play a custom map. It's my hope that cheese does not become overly viable in 1v1 and 2v2. And even if cheese can reliably be countered, it does not change the fact that it is not contribute to my personal enjoyment of the game. Countering cheese is mechanical. It is not an exercise in being clever or skillful. You have a point, but balancing a game like SC for 3v3 and 4v4 is not really very possible or a high priority. The real competition will take place at 1v1 and maybe a bit of 2v2 (I'd like to see this, but we'll see how the scene develops). There are just too many variables and too much potential for cheese in a 3v3 or 4v4. | ||
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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
When the game starts, send the first overlord to their ramp. Usually if they are doing a standard build, you should see pylons and gateway when the ovie gets there. Secondly, send the 10th drone to go scout all nearby blind spots. At this point, if you see a probe safest thing to do is FOLLOW it. If the P player is cheesing, they most likely won't want to lose that probe. If you don't see a probe... something fishy is probably going on. Second overlord should be going behind the mineral line at their natural. If a cheese is happening, don't overreact. | ||
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BentoBox
Canada303 Posts
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G0liath36O
United States3 Posts
i think that much cheese just sometimes takes out the fun of the game =[ | ||
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Dizmaul
United States831 Posts
On April 06 2010 16:05 Floophead_III wrote: Welcome to starcraft 2. I get cheesed/allin'd almost every game. It's a byproduct of crappy map design. 90% of cheese won't work on good maps. I can't think of a map that doesn't have a cheese you can do. LT is the least cheesy, but you can still do tankdrops/viking landing on the nat ridge. Phase prism stalkers is annoying too, but not that bad. If you want a cheeseproof build, go over10pool. If you scout everything normal, you can just wait on lings and make drones instead and you're not very behind. If you do get cheesed you'll be in a much better position to stop it. maybe 5-10% of cheese wouldn't work if that... but i do think the maps need to be reworked a little, or just have a broader spectrum of play styles. im sure at launch there will be so much more or even before then. Almost all the maps right now promote faster style game's. Even the largest map the base's are still very close with no safe nat's. we need some macro oriented maps... I really hope they bring back the 3spawn maps. and maps with closed off back nat, as well as a easy to protect front. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On April 07 2010 00:45 Vexx wrote: In my opinion, cheese is not fun. For me, it does not diversify the game. . Uhhh.. what? Cheese IS diversifying the game. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
So expanding and rushing to Roach seems a viable option to increase survivability, the key to this is the timing and that is decided by scouting and recognizing the early aggression of the opponent. Getting the Roach Warren up seems to be the critical thing there. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
And quite frankly, fuck Desert Oasis. If you don't proxy someone on that crapheap, you just get overrun with Banshees or Mutas. Might as well turn it into a quick 5 minute win/loss, rather than a gradual 20 minute one. | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
The first overlord always goes toward the enemy. The second overlord always looks for cheese. So like in scrap station, first overlord goes over. Second one goes down to the ledge, but it takes the path to the outside of your natural in case there is a barracks or gateway there. In desert oasis, first overlord goes toward base, second overlord goes up, then toward ramp, then out to nat and then back to choke. This overlord behavior rewards 9 overlord 10 drone because you get it out a little faster. If at any point you detect cheese, throw down two spine crawlers the moment your pool completes. Do it next to your hatch, if it turns out there is a cannon/bunker rush you can always move your spine crawlers, but he can't move his cannons/bunker. If you do spot cheese, don't immediately clue your opponent in that you've noticed. Spine crawlers are really good at holding off cheese and if you make him commit to a failed strategy you will win easily with speedlings. | ||
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
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