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On April 07 2010 08:57 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 08:49 -orb- wrote:On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote:
Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine. You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running. I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks. Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not. Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker. If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe. If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine. If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine. If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now.
Agreed with floophead. Orb, you got me excited about trying reaper openings again when I saw this thread, but was very disappointed to find out that 9 rax 9 gas 11 depot got me a reaper to his base a second or two before his stalker popped out -_- wonderful. Reaper openings blow TvP.
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On April 07 2010 16:11 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 08:57 Floophead_III wrote:On April 07 2010 08:49 -orb- wrote:On April 07 2010 01:59 avilo wrote:
Are you guys kidding? Reaper is not a problem at all. Massive whine thread, when every good protoss gets their stalker out and stops it with 1 probe loss, if not two, and they're still sort of ahead of T half the time lmao.
and for gods sake, when you make the zealot don't simply chase the reaper with it, use 1-3 probes with the zealot to try to trap it and kill it, then ur stalker comes out chrono boosted and you're fine. You act like 1: Getting a full surround on a reaper does anything because they won't just push the probes out of the way and 2: like the reaper won't just snipe these probes as he's running. I've mathematically proven it's impossible to hold off, so please go troll elsewhere, thanks. Orb. Hate to say it, but it's fine. I just checked it myself just to see if I was mistaken, and I'm not. Always open 10 pylon (9 chrono)/11 gate/13 gas/16 core/17 pylon and save a chrono for your stalker. If he opens 10/10/11 reaper rush your core finishes as his reaper finishes. On LT on adjacent positions my stalker finished as his reaper entered my base. I lost I think 1 probe. If he opens a true cheese, 8 rax 8 ref your stalker is going to be about 10 seconds late. Just threaten his reaper with probes if he goes for your pylon, and then once your stalker is out you're fine. If he's opening with a marauder you can just make a zealot and follow up with a sentry and you're fine. If you really don't believe me I'll show you in person. I'm on right now. Agreed with floophead. Orb, you got me excited about trying reaper openings again when I saw this thread, but was very disappointed to find out that 9 rax 9 gas 11 depot got me a reaper to his base a second or two before his stalker popped out -_- wonderful. Reaper openings blow TvP.
yeh, the reaper openings are not so sexy or imba as this thread tries to make em out to be.
People seem to be making it out as if it's a freewin, when really most of the time it's all-inish (8 rax especially) and they can stop a 10rax no prob with losing at most 1-2 probes and P economy is still almost ahead of T, except for a mule.
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On April 07 2010 12:42 Floophead_III wrote:
There's this nifty unit called the probe. You send it out to see what the other player is doing. If he's doing a rax first build he won't make a marine to kill your probe off, so you can happily park it and wait for whatever comes out. If he does make a marine, you can make whatever you want cause he's already 25 seconds late.
Does that timing work? You can wait until you see a marauder pop out before you build your zealot AND still get your sentry after the zealot out on time to fight the marauder? That doesn't sound right, but I'll test it tomorrow.
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If you 11 gate/cyber core immediately, I'm fairly sure if they proxy 8 barrack outside your base on blistering sands the reaper will get a ton of kills.
If they don't proxy, it's fairly easy to hold off reaper with probes + zealot until stalker, you might lose 1-2 probes but u end up with the advantage.
I haven't tried defending it vs proxy rax, but from the newest Phobos vs Demuslim game it looks a little imbalanced. Terran should have a larger disadvantage economically, but the mule is ridiculous.
I say decrease gateway build time by 5 seconds, cybernetics build time by 5 seconds. Good micro can take care of the rest.
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This [H] thread seems less about getting help and more whining about a nonexistent class imbalance.
Numerous people have already told you how to counter this strat. Zealot + probe surround with a chrono boosted stalker. At most you should lose 2 probes, which is far less than what the T gave up to rush the reaper.
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Tell me exactly how to fight off 2 Reapers in your base in 2v2 when you're against two Terrans as Protoss please. This strat works 100% of the time, there is no protoss counter, you simply suck it up and deal with your probe losses. That is dumb.
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There's a post now on playxp showing a screenshot of a build that's even faster than the replay I posted. The first and second reaper are started at 2:15 and 2:59 which means they will pop out at 2:55 and 3:39 respectively. Looking through my games I see I generally don't even start my cybercore until about the 2:55-3:05 mark and since it takes another 78 seconds or so even if you chrono the stalker the whole time...that's an awful long time window during which they can attack and have you stuck with units that simply aren't meant to take on reapers. Is that really as easy to defend as a lot of you are trying to make out?
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Realistically you can get your Cyber core (completed) @ 3:45ish at earliest unless you stop building probes at some point. And that would be a very bad thing as T economy is better than P's (due to mules).
If you see stalkers before the 4:00 mark, the P has gimped themselves on probes and their economy is extremely weak.
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Good post. I was wondering about this myself. I got 10 rax'ed reapered and focused on getting the stalker out ASAP and it was still a little late. however i did go forge+cannon after building core and it held off, but then he expanded....and gg 10 mins later
blizzard needs to fix this
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GOD i love doing this vs toss. Right now stall him with your zeal till stalker comes out. And chrono to speed up stalker. It's kinda crapy, i know, but it's the best we can do for now unless blizz changes it. The best is proxy barracks reaper harrass. I've raped toss more than once with that build  Doesn't work against zerg tho.. lol
PS. I havn't explored cannons yet..?
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I don't even play Toss fulltime and I don't struggle with this. I lost to this once and I haven't since cuz' I learned and since then it's been fine.
Like many people mentioned, you can easily have 1 zealot ready to chase him around, and your stalker pops out a few seconds later. Don't see what the problem is. Just be smart with your Stalker and don't get tricked by the reaper moving awhile while the second reaper hops to your mineral line.
Losing one or two probes is normal, and it doesen't really matter considering his eco is also slightly weaker due to his earlier rax, earlier gas etc.
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I used to think this was easy, but yesterday I finally played a game where the douche did the super fast (8rax or sooner) reaper rush.. and it was that map where it was 4 corners with the higher cliffs outside of your base, so not only did his first reaper get there way before my first stalker and killed 2-3 probes, but then his reapers were on high cliffs in range of one of my pylons, so he was able to kill that..
He continued with reapers, got about 10 of them, which sure cant compete with my army 1v1, but since this map has high cliffs instead of low cliffs, he just stayed above there (the part blocked by 2 rock barriers) and if I tried to go counter his expo, he just jumped in to my base and took out what he could.. I was stuck in my base.
Then, I got 2 cannons up which would stop the harass and then I went to deal damage to him, but by that time he had mass marauders and of course since marauders are still gay, my army was dead in seconds (with his reapers coming in behind)..
I really dont think theres anything a protoss could do on this map.. thankfully its only one map, every other map reapers dont have that kind of mobility/cliffs to dominate so much. But still really lame.
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On April 10 2010 01:58 Skyze wrote:
I used to think this was easy, but yesterday I finally played a game where the douche did the super fast (8rax or sooner) reaper rush.. and it was that map where it was 4 corners with the higher cliffs outside of your base, so not only did his first reaper get there way before my first stalker and killed 2-3 probes, but then his reapers were on high cliffs in range of one of my pylons, so he was able to kill that..
He continued with reapers, got about 10 of them, which sure cant compete with my army 1v1, but since this map has high cliffs instead of low cliffs, he just stayed above there (the part blocked by 2 rock barriers) and if I tried to go counter his expo, he just jumped in to my base and took out what he could.. I was stuck in my base.
Then, I got 2 cannons up which would stop the harass and then I went to deal damage to him, but by that time he had mass marauders and of course since marauders are still gay, my army was dead in seconds (with his reapers coming in behind)..
I really dont think theres anything a protoss could do on this map.. thankfully its only one map, every other map reapers dont have that kind of mobility/cliffs to dominate so much. But still really lame.
just for that map then (kulas i'm guessing) go with a quick robo for an OBSERVER right after you build stalkers and defend the initial reaper. problem solved!
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On April 10 2010 02:15 threehundred wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:58 Skyze wrote:
I used to think this was easy, but yesterday I finally played a game where the douche did the super fast (8rax or sooner) reaper rush.. and it was that map where it was 4 corners with the higher cliffs outside of your base, so not only did his first reaper get there way before my first stalker and killed 2-3 probes, but then his reapers were on high cliffs in range of one of my pylons, so he was able to kill that..
He continued with reapers, got about 10 of them, which sure cant compete with my army 1v1, but since this map has high cliffs instead of low cliffs, he just stayed above there (the part blocked by 2 rock barriers) and if I tried to go counter his expo, he just jumped in to my base and took out what he could.. I was stuck in my base.
Then, I got 2 cannons up which would stop the harass and then I went to deal damage to him, but by that time he had mass marauders and of course since marauders are still gay, my army was dead in seconds (with his reapers coming in behind)..
I really dont think theres anything a protoss could do on this map.. thankfully its only one map, every other map reapers dont have that kind of mobility/cliffs to dominate so much. But still really lame. just for that map then (kulas i'm guessing) go with a quick robo for an OBSERVER right after you build stalkers and defend the initial reaper. problem solved!
Or how about killing the rocks? I've heared about the possibility to split your army since Stalkers rape Reapers...
This thread is just useless, even if you lose 2-3 probes to a 8/9 Rax/Reaper you are still ahead economicly. I'm experimenting with reaper(+boost) against zeals in fights but they are so gas-heavy that you cant get some EMP's or Mech out too (early).
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LOL this is payback for all those years protoss would go 4 goon/range and break the wall. GO TERRAN !
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When I proxy 10 rax reaper, Protoss who went 10 gate , core before first zealot ( a safe and economical opening ) have a zealot out as the reaper arrives, and they chase, while building a stalker with boost. Stalkers are RIDICULOUSLY faster than reapers, so once it's out you have to leave the base or lose the reaper. I don't see how this is a problem for anyone at all.
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On April 11 2010 03:04 Louder wrote:
When I proxy 10 rax reaper, Protoss who went 10 gate , core before first zealot ( a safe and economical opening ) have a zealot out as the reaper arrives, and they chase, while building a stalker with boost. Stalkers are RIDICULOUSLY faster than reapers, so once it's out you have to leave the base or lose the reaper. I don't see how this is a problem for anyone at all.
If you 10gate you're way behind economically.
Then if your opponent didn't happen to proxy reapers and you 10 gated you're even farther behind, and it's impossible to scout it early enough to decide whether to 10gate or not.
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On April 03 2010 23:50 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 12:49 SirNeb wrote:
reapers are already pretty much useless, if you nerf it anymore, might as well just take them out of the game. They are pretty much just somewhat useful when the armies are very small.
I personally think they should rethink the balance of reaper in general so they are useful in practical manners, not just some cheese. First off, I have to disagree with you there. Maybe it's only because we're 2v2ing but often when I 2v2 random and get Terran I will mass reaper for fun. You can run into someone's base and 2shot a nexus with not too many of them and there's literally absolutely nothing your opponent can do to stop it. Every time I mass reapers I convince myself of how OP they are vs buildings. In any case, I don't think reapers need a nerf, I think the tech lab needs a nerf. They should put the cost back up to where it was and make it take like 10 seconds longer.
yeah longer build time if this is a unsolvable problem. reapers are very strong 30 dmg. I massed like 20 reapers, 20 marines, 20 marauders, ahahah wat fun!
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meh...
if only the reaper made sense any time after that
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Yeah I seem to face this every single game now, it gets even better when the Terran proxys.
I really love these reactions by terrans getting into defensive mode about this and saying you only get like 2 probes or that you get units out in time to fight this, either you don't know what build this thread discusses (and thus shouldn't be posting) or you're lying to further your agenda of anti-balance in the beta (lol).
This thing kills A TON of probes no matter what the toss does, you can see the numbers right in the goddamn OP, 30 seconds is a long time for a reaper to be having a field day. The question is whether it's imbalanced (is the damage dealt by this in line with the sacrifice the terran is making to achieve this.
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EPT
