EPTBy the way, the enemy build order is:
10 barrack
10 refinery
10 supplies
11 tech lab
and proceed to hammer me with reapers one tech lab is finished.
PvT Reaper Cheese
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
By the way, the enemy build order is: 10 barrack 10 refinery 10 supplies 11 tech lab and proceed to hammer me with reapers one tech lab is finished. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
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The6357
United States1268 Posts
 U can never kill those with zealots and they are pretty good at killing pylons too... btw what building do they come out of..? what building should I see in terran base to expect reapers? | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
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deth
Australia1757 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:33 Yamoth wrote: By the way, the enemy build order is: 10 barrack 10 refinery 10 supplies 11 tech lab and proceed to hammer me with reapers one tech lab is finished. ill abuse this a bit on blistering sands, ill see what works/what doesnt against it. | ||
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:38 The6357 wrote: ahh those damn things are called reapers...I got owned by those a few times last night U can never kill those with zealots and they are pretty good at killing pylons too... btw what building do they come out of..? what building should I see in terran base to expect reapers? My suggestion is learn all races, at least the buildings / units, before laddering. | ||
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:38 The6357 wrote: ahh those damn things are called reapers...I got owned by those a few times last night U can never kill those with zealots and they are pretty good at killing pylons too... btw what building do they come out of..? what building should I see in terran base to expect reapers? They came out of barrack and the one that I am up against do proxy barrack right outside my base. Honestly, I think this is even more op than the SCV/Marine all in that I have to deal with before the patch. | ||
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Apexplayer
United States406 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:38 The6357 wrote: ahh those damn things are called reapers...I got owned by those a few times last night U can never kill those with zealots and they are pretty good at killing pylons too... btw what building do they come out of..? what building should I see in terran base to expect reapers? Defiantly learn all the races before jumping in the fire, but more importantly How did you get into beta ;-; | ||
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:58 Apexplayer wrote: Defiantly learn all the races before jumping in the fire, but more importantly How did you get into beta ;-; Okay, we got it, he need to know more about the game before making any comment or what not. Can we get off that topic and back onto ways to counter this? | ||
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The6357
United States1268 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:58 Apexplayer wrote: Defiantly learn all the races before jumping in the fire, but more importantly How did you get into beta ;-; what do you mean how do i get into beta...=.= My friend got in beta by opt-in with my SC key...and he sent me invite friend key... and I want to learn by playing it...I'm not trying to be super good at sc2 or anything..i just play couple games a day...and learn new things | ||
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dthree
Australia150 Posts
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
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The6357
United States1268 Posts
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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Whiplash
United States2928 Posts
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:36 threehundred wrote: just scout after 11 gate, and build a cybernetics after gate, chronoboost a stalker Stalker owns reapers. I think you need like 4-5 reapers to take down a stalker without significant losses. | ||
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ZeKk
Sweden320 Posts
On March 27 2010 07:55 Zoler wrote: My suggestion is learn all races, at least the buildings / units, before laddering. It's nothing wrong to laddering without know everything about each race etc, since stats isn't important, or atleast shouldn't be. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
If you already have a Zealot, then run it around to find the proxy. If you can find it, great. If not, you'll need to wait for the first Stalker to come out. If you don't yet have a Zealot out, you can let it finish if you fear your Core will be too late. If not, then Chrono Boost your first (and all subsequent) Stalker(s). | ||
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icki.icki
106 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
I'm not even sure why you'd proxy a rax for reapers; they're pretty damned quick anyway. Afaik, they are normal speed, and only get faster after the upgrade, which takes quite a while. | ||
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BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
basically if youre t run make the rax outside the base near the destructible rock. if the toss made 1 pylon to power his gateway target it with your reapers, only takes 14 hits to kill the pylon, might be able to get it. the reaper is in the base BEFORE chrono'ed stalker is done so its fairly annoying. id say the best course of action is to scout on 10, if you see nothing in main just 1 gate core, chrono your zealot, chrono your stalker, make 2 pylons instead of 1 for powering gateway and search for the proxy to make sure its not like allin rine or something | ||
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kme
Serbia176 Posts
Edit: ok I just tested some 8 rax BO(proxy rax), and the reaper was on his mineral line at 3:20 replay time. The strange thing I noticed that bot went 8 gate build :S so he had a zealot by the time the reaper was in his base. But I'm guessing any normal build will have a zealot until much later. Especially if he sends a scout only after starting a gateway. Even if he scouts after pylon, by the time the worker gets in you base he will probably still end up making gateway on 11-12(if he chrono boost the zealot it will come out at exactly same time but how much would one zelot help?). The forge instead of gate would probably work, if he placed his first pylon near nexus. | ||
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On March 28 2010 08:43 kme wrote: I could see this being deadly on steppes of war. What is the exact build order? It's actually not. This is because you basically know which direction the reapers are coming from. Since you know, you can now EASILY defend. | ||
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palanq
United States761 Posts
anyway, don't get a zeal, spend those mins on faster core. I would suppose that no rax in base means proxy marines if there's no gas (so, yes, do get that zeal), but proxy reaper if there is gas (so chronoboost a stalker as your first unit instead). | ||
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
On March 28 2010 09:43 Yamoth wrote: You need that zeal before stalker, if you went stalker asap, the enemy got a 30 second window to kill your probe, With zeal, you can lower the prob death down to just 2 or 3 instead of like 6 or 8 This is perfectly right imho. From my experimenting it took 11 reaper shots to kill a zealot (I may be off by 1 or 2) Either way, it takes three to kill a probe. Just that much lets you know you save the lives of at least 3 probes with that first zealot, as well as likely outpositioning the first rushed reaper. And if their micro can't handle it, the zealot can get a good hit or two on the reaper. Reapers without speed aren't immortal, they're just awesome  | ||
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
On March 28 2010 09:39 palanq wrote: I never get a zeal before stalker for exactly this reason. I only build a zeal before core if I scout 2 rax with no gas or something. otherwise, you need that first stalker ASAP to defend the reaper. if you do it this way then I think on most maps you don't even need to chronoboost the stalker unless it's some proxy? anyway, don't get a zeal, spend those mins on faster core. I would suppose that no rax in base means proxy marines if there's no gas (so, yes, do get that zeal), but proxy reaper if there is gas (so chronoboost a stalker as your first unit instead). Ok this is the answer. How much time it takes to have the first stalker? Is it more or less than 3:20? If it is more i suppose it is little unbalanced? (the reaper cheese would be not defendable) On March 28 2010 16:06 dudeman001 wrote: This is perfectly right imho. From my experimenting it took 11 reaper shots to kill a zealot (I may be off by 1 or 2) Either way, it takes three to kill a probe. Just that much lets you know you save the lives of at least 3 probes with that first zealot, as well as likely outpositioning the first rushed reaper. And if their micro can't handle it, the zealot can get a good hit or two on the reaper. Reapers without speed aren't immortal, they're just awesome This makes absolutesy no sense at all. If i use a zealot i will have late core late stalker..this means that my stalker will have to fight 3+ reapers and not only one..(You can't save probes if your zealot die without making damage) So the only question is: how much time to make a stalker? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Either way the fast zealot and stalker easily stop reapers and the damage to terran's economy of fast reapers due to the delayed supply depot is more then the damage to your economy if your defense is well. Perhaps that the tech lab cost reduction makes rax -> supply -> ref possible in stead of rax -> ref -> supply in which case it's a bit more efficient for T but still not that great. | ||
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fulmetljaket
482 Posts
should hold him off for long enough to get some stalkers. if not... you should research build orders more, cause my reaper rushes have def been beat before | ||
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asdfTT123
United States989 Posts
It doesn't matter if you chrono boost your stalker. The reaper will reach your base by abusing terrain so this is viable on several maps - mostly LT and DO. Some T's will even go so far as to proxy their rax if it's on a less favorable map, and there's nothing you can do against it. Zealot does not help because a reaper is much faster and can be microed to kill it, then proceeding to own your probes. Chrono boosting your Stalker by going 1 gate, assimilator, pylon, core will get your Stalker out almost a full 8 seconds after the reaper has reached your mineral line in many cases, by then, you could easily lose 4-5 probes, which is instant GG at this point. The T can simply fast expo or transition to mauraders and own you any way he pleases. I have a few ideas of beating this - mainly making zealot while core is being warped in and then chrono boosting a stalker for the zeal to be a distraction. Against a good player, he can outmicro the zealot and kill a few probes in the process. On a four player map, it's basically a necessity to scout with your first pylon probe now because of this danger. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I haven't tested this BO TvP since the first patch tho, so I'm gonna give it a go. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 27 2010 08:22 The6357 wrote: how does sentry do against reapers? can't you get sentry faster than stalkers? Sentries have armor type Light, which means Reapers do more than double the damage against them than they would against an Armored unit such as the Stalker. You're far better served by getting Stalkers against Reapers. | ||
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R-Rated
United States10 Posts
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
Pretty awesome 2v2 opening. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On March 29 2010 23:28 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm pretty sure if you don't kill 4-5 probes with this build you are MASSIVELY behind - going 10 rax 10 gas 10 supply fucks your eco pretty good... I haven't tested this BO TvP since the first patch tho, so I'm gonna give it a go. Yah. I played someone last night who did this from his choke and only got about 3 probe kills (from my assimilator that I didn't pull). He then had to play catchup since my economy isn't really affected. If you see a reaper you should be running your probes towards your gateway so the reaper gets closer to your gateway as your stalker appears, thus reducing your probe losses. If you spot a reaper you shouldn't just keep mining and let him get free kills. Would you run your probes if you got colossus dropped? Or if you got DT harassed? Or if there was a muta harass? I think players need to go back to basics sometimes :/ | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
And against Marauders, just go for Robo after 2 gates, chronoboost an Immortal if you think the T will push soon with lots of Marauders or go for an Observer and see how many Immortals you need. I also think Zealots aren't that good against Marauders, Reapers and all sorts of cheese anyways or at least not before the Leg-Upgrade. I go for 2-gate Stalker into Robo against T and P and so far I think it's pretty solid. It also translates very well into different follow-ups: You can for example play very aggressive thanks to rather early Warpgates and Immortals, good scouting thanks to Observer and make a very offensive pylon, add 1-2 gates and keep pressuring the opponent (if he went for an early expansion or is teching for example). You can also play defensively very well thanks to Stalkers and the scouting of the Observer and take an expansion or you can do some sort of creative stuff with the vision of the observer and stalker-blink or Immortal-drops with prism etc. | ||
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
On March 29 2010 21:59 fulmetljaket wrote: the reaper jumpes up onto ledges. there is NO SIGHT ON LEDGES WITHOUT A SCOUT. use this to your advantage. when the reaper jumps up on the ledge, have a friendly cannon or two waiting for him. should hold him off for long enough to get some stalkers. if not... you should research build orders more, cause my reaper rushes have def been beat before Cannots don't seem like the most viable solution to reaper proxy to me. First off you're sacrificing a faster gateway and therefore your entire tech to make cannons, currently some of the most useless static defense. If the terran opts to NOT reaper proxy, you're already behind. And if your timing is off and a single reaper gets past warping-in cannons and into your probe line, that's instant GG. A smart terran would send in his scouting scv after it finishes the proxy rax and see the cannons anyway, letting him either pick the right spot to hop up the cliff or switching strategies altogether. And let's not forget maps like Kulas Ravine where the reapers jump down, not up, so sight isn't an issue. On March 30 2010 01:33 kickinhead wrote: I'd go for 2-gate-stalkers in PvT: Stalkers are IMO underestimated against Terran, mostly because Marauders deal a lot of DMG to the Stalkers, but 2-gate Stalkers are very good against all sorts of cheese with bunkers, reapers, SCV-rushes with Marines etc. They're also nice against Banshees, Hellions, Drops of some sort etc. Does 2-gate stalker slow the timing for the first stalker? If it does I'd be skeptical about using this. Getting that very first stalker should be protoss's main priority. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On March 30 2010 01:52 dudeman001 wrote: Does 2-gate stalker slow the timing for the first stalker? If it does I'd be skeptical about using this. Getting that very first stalker should be protoss's main priority. You can get the first Stalker out before adding the second Gateway if you want - at least that's what I do. You can even chronoboost the first stalker, but I prefer using all my boosts on Probes right after the first pylon finishes - really gets your macro going and in my experience, the stalker comes out soon enough to defend against reaper-harrassment. Maybe on Desert Oasis it's safer to chronoboost the stalker, just because fast-reapers are often used on this Map, the opponent knows where u are from the start and they have a pretty short distance to cover... Atm I often go for Council instead of robo and add few Zealots when Leg-Upgrade is finished, if the opponent is pressuring you with marauders that is... Then you can get rather fast Storm which are just awesome against M&M. Also, you should maybe mix in a Sentry to defend your ramp and shield when using lots of Stalkers, because Marauders are really scary. :S But I like Robo with Immortals and Council for Leg-Upgrade and then Templars both very much. I just don't like using Zealots without Leg-Upgrade in the early-game because they suck against reaper, hellions, SCV+Rines-Cheese, and Marauders if you don't have Sentrys and get off some nice force fields behind the marauders so your Zealots can get to them... | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
Remember, the very purpose of proxies is to shorten the travel time of attacking units. The travel time is measured from the building location to the choke points for most units, but not reapers, because they can enter the base in many locations. In this way they are similar to reaver+shuttle from SC1. But unlike going reavers, barracks doesn't require 200 Gas AND can lift-off which means you don't have to pick a special, sheltered spot to place the proxy. All that makes searching for proxies damn hard, thus making the strategy stronger. | ||
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StayFrosty
Canada743 Posts
On March 27 2010 08:36 cartoon]x wrote: hmm. very interesting. well, let's consider what maps this is effective on. Desert oasis, primarily? You may consider sending an earlier scout on that map, like 9 pylon > scout. So let's assume you know it's coming. If you scout the barracks soon enough, you could delay the building of the tech lab by using your probe to stand in its build location. You may be able to buy enough time to get a stalker out if you do this real gosu like. You could also attempt to wall off certain key areas of cliff with your buildings, making it more difficult for him to harass probes / easier to get him backed into a corner if he tries. You will be going for stalker, so your goal is to survive from 3:35 to about the 4:00 mark. If you can manage to delay the tech lab then you should be great; after all, the barracks will have to be pretty close to your base. Otherwise the base layout is probably the key. Pulling probe will not put you at a disadvantage as long as you don't lose too many. After all, he did go proxy barracks > reapers. You shouldn't be pulling ALL the probes. Reapers without the speed upgrade can be chased away a little better. With the good enough micro and building placement you should be able to keep him running. If you can manage to pull back some probes he gets hits in on, I think you can last those 25 seconds. Also, at what point are you building your gateway? Build it earlier and get your zealot out a little earlier. This. Pylon placement behind probes to block reaper in and let your zealot catch up, gg. | ||
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
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