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On March 24 2010 02:26 Alventenie wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned a fast sentry to wall off your choke to give you more time. To me that would be significant enough to give you the unit advantage + cutting some of his forces off to kill some of his units.
I use sentries sometimes to buy time for cannons to warp in (since i warp them in once i c the masses of scvs/rines move out from their base, they dont come in on time).
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On March 24 2010 02:26 Alventenie wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned a fast sentry to wall off your choke to give you more time. To me that would be significant enough to give you the unit advantage + cutting some of his forces off to kill some of his units.
I would rather have canons/units that do more damage as opposed to a sentry to wall off... it doen't buy THAT much time plus a smart T would have rally sent to your choke anyway and rines build much faster tan and toss unit...
However
+ Show Spoiler +a SMART terran wouldn't use this crappy build anyway
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Why did no one listen to me?
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
These are all replays of fairly standard two-rax openings with a standard 6+ min push, except without bothering to wall-off so you can even know "this guy's going to have so many marines he doesn't even need to wall". The only differences are that he's going pure marine instead of MM, and he pulled all his SCVs because there's enough toss out there in the ranks that play sloppy T1.5 that going all-in with the push is going to pay off often.
You could be matching the marine mineral count with zeal and the gas cost with (a) sentry and pull probes when you see all-in SCV and stop this easy. Notice I dont' mention stalkers? The only thing your stalkers 'counter'(and 2 stalker equall 2 zealots and a sentry so this is important) are reapers.
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On March 24 2010 02:40 Mnijykmirl wrote:
Why did no one listen to me?
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
These are all replays of fairly standard two-rax openings with a standard 6+ min push, except without bothering to wall-off so you can even know "this guy's going to have so many marines he doesn't even need to wall". The only differences are that he's going pure marine instead of MM, and he pulled all his SCVs because there's enough toss out there in the ranks that play sloppy T1.5 that going all-in with the push is going to pay off often.
You could be matching the marine mineral count with zeal and the gas cost with (a) sentry and pull probes when you see all-in SCV and stop this easy. Notice I dont' mention stalkers? The only thing your stalkers 'counter'(and 2 stalker equall 2 zealots and a sentry so this is important) are reapers.
Im guessing nobody listned to you because either
a) the people dont agree with what your saying
b) you sound very snobbish and mean
c) There is no "one rush to rule them all" every T rushes a bit differently and depending on what route the Protoss went to defend it a different timing will work better or worse.
d) The map being used makes a difference... so the "4:20 all-in rush of 6 rines and SCV's" isn't always valid, on steppes of war the T will have a easier time pulling it off than blistering sands or desert oasis or Lost temple because of map size...
e) you point about matching mineral costs makes no sence and doesn't matter what-so-ever.A group of marines could easily take down a higher "mineral cost" zealot army because of micro...
f) As for stalkers only countering reapers your highly mistaken... Zealots + stalkers and a sentry or 2 work extremely well against MM... the zeal force the terran to move back and micro the sentries provide shield to make zeals live longr while the stalkers continue to fire...
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If it comes after you have a sentry, it's not going to work, you can easily defend with a forcefield, if it comes earlier, they won't have enough stuff to beat zealot+probes
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On March 24 2010 02:40 Mnijykmirl wrote:
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
Do you have a replay of this? (Just curious, never seen it so far I think)
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The Comeback just finished up this thread.
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On March 24 2010 06:19 apollo_440 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2010 02:40 Mnijykmirl wrote:
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
Do you have a replay of this? (Just curious, never seen it so far I think)
http://www.warp-whistle.com/replays/Early Marine and SCV Rush 2010-03-14 21-59-44.SC2Replay
^What I found with a quick look around.^
Toss doesn't try to counter with probes or anything in this so it's not a perfect example but you get the basic overview. Note the timing on the 6th marine- everything else is just travel time/slack. If you choose to proxy rax any or cut a little corners it can be attacking earlier. For example, I've seen the 6 marines and SCVs up toss's ramp on Blistering Sands @ 4:30.
-SCVs block zealots and probes from marines
-The only way to beat it without a fast forge for cannons is to get zealots and probes on the marines with micro
-This is extremely difficult and if it wasn't for the trick to remove worker collision by telling the probes to mine a far away mineral patch to pass through the SCVs, possibly impossible
-That's 2 more marines on the way and if terran chooses to be a little bit slower by getting an orbital command, it's pretty easy to keep a few marines constantly being added, so the rush isn't done just because a couple of marines die.
-Terran can wall like normal and the build isn't even all-in until the moment SCVs are pulled. This makes it hard to scout. The only indication that it might be all-in is if you spot a second barracks going up and no gas with your probe before it dies.
-If T scouts forge, they're well suited to start a CC on 18 or 20 and get a FE advantage, which makes it a win-win move.
Players shouldn't assume that anything all-in w/ pulled SCVs is THE infamous all-in as outlined above, that it's virtually impossible to beat rather than just weak T1.5 play, and then present the false dichotomy that you have to cannon and Terran gets an expansion, or die.
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One option on some maps if you scout them coming for you is to move your zealots outside your base. As the marines/scvs move up you bring the zealots up, probes to the ramp and flank them.
Cannons are far better, but I've had some success with this when I got a late scout of the tactic.
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Cannons and Sentries are your tickets. Both DESTROY both this rush and mass Marine rush, and if you can hold off this rush his economy is completely screwed, so the fact that you went Cannons early won't hurt you that much.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
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I only watch the first posted replay. Having said that it is a difficult strat to stop, but I believe that it can be stopped with a better build than simply stalkers.
As other's mentioned. You're replay doesn't address the 4minute all in which is REALLY difficult to stop in the current metagame. Nonetheless, I still believe that the creative pros will find a way to counter this specific build. Do I know the counter? No. I'm not focused on playing Protoss right now, but I'm excited to see what that build will be.
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The general problem it seems is that there are tons of variations of the terran push it seems which all take a slightly different way to stop.
For the general way to stop it I think a fast forge and sentry works.
If you start off with a quite general bo:
9 pylon
13 gate
15 assimilator
16 pylon
18 cybernetics core
If nothing strange happened up till now you are able to transition into anything with a fast colossi build or whatever. If there is a good chance he SCV rushes though (no refinery or 2nd rax spotted)
add a forge ASAP at this point. Chrono boost out a sentry and stop mining gas (after first 100) to put all probes on minerals. The 2nd pylon you have should be about 10 range from the ramp.
SCV's/probes take about 23 seconds to go from ramp to ramp in steppes of war which is about the minimal distance I think. Sentry forcefield is directly ready as it comes out and lasts 15 seconds, so if terran leaves base and you scout it at the ramp it takes 23+15 = 38 seconds to reach you, a bit more if you take into consideration marines move slower then SCVs. Cannons take 40 seconds. So the moment you see him going for it directly make 2-3 cannons, they should be more then half done by the time he is at your ramp. Forcefield the ramp and when the forcefield is gone the cannons should exactly be done. Use probes, the 1 or 2 zeals you have the sentry and the 2-3 cannons to fight at the choke. Focussing your cannons + sentry on the marines should let you win. If he changes tactic at any point after moving out with scv's his mineral loss is more then your loss with forge and cannons and you should be ahead.
The sentry finishes at ~4:05, 2nd cannon should be done at ~4:30.
The timings can be seen in this replay:
http://starcraft.gamesports.net/de/replays/577/
The toss loses however because the first forcefield is misplaced which is CRUCIAL to this defense. It's a 15 second difference which is you having 2 cannons done and probes ready to defend or him killing you off. Preferrably you split up a few scv's on your side of the ramp with your forcefield so the sentry and zealot can kill them offcourse.
Obviously the defense only works at maps where the choke can be closed with 1 forcefield but those are all maps excluding scrap station. Scrap station however has a longer base to base walk.
Scouting is absolutely key though as any extra delay on the forge will let you be run over. If somehow terran comes before 4:05 this might also fail but I believe that push can just be repelled with sentry zeal probes as that early his 2nd rax will not have kicked in yet.
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EPT
