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How is it possible to stop this? The replay of it is here:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=116186
EDIT: This is the Terran rush with 6-10 marines and all of his SCVs. Detailed description follows.
The only way to survive is to build cannons. However, you can never push out to stop them from taking as many expos as they like. Then this happens:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=116191
Scenario #1
Terran player builds 6-10 marines from 2 barracks or a generator barracks. Then he attacks with 15 or so SCVS and his 10 marines, using the SCVS to fight the protoss units. The only option as protoss is to fight back using your own probes and units. SCVs are much stronger than probes in combat. If you survive your economy will be heavily damage and the terran will have a huge economic advantage even after losing his SCVS with MULEs.
Scenario #2
get cannons. The terran scouts your base. you have no way to deny the scout other than completely walling off the front. (is this viable?). You make 2 cannons and units to block the choke. Terran scout sees cannons and does not attack. Instead he builds CC in his base and fast expos. if you attack he uses his SCVS to kill your army, then comes and stomps your base (as before). Then he goes 5 rax + starport and crushes you because you cant catch up.
The only possible way to win that i can see is forge expand, but then you lose handily to the standard MM push as marauders trash cannons.
This is how the poster Comeback beat the same player that is in the reps i posted. First, the build:
12Gate,
cybernetics core,
Warpgate research
Gate
Gate
When the push came he had 6 zealots and 3 stalkers (approx) against about 20 marines and 12 SCV. He sent about 6 probes to help fight. The battle ended slightly in Protoss favor with about 5 stalkers vs 6-7 marines (in retreat). The T player already had an expo on the way so Comeback kept massing 3 gate zlots and stalkers, broke down the back entrance and won. Trashtalk was for the lols.
So, now lets discuss is this build viable vs other "normal" terran strategies. I dont think it is possible to scout this coming as (if you watch the replay) the T player gets gas and everything at the usual times until he gets the probe out of his base with a marine. then obv it is impossible to get another probe in
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is it the 4 rax rush? if it is. go straight stalkers with 2 canons in ur base. when he attacks just go back to ur base with canons. expand get collosus, obs, etc. sentrys are also very good
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You would get 500x more meaningful replies if you described what happened and showed some attempt at learning on your own, instead of asking "How do I stop this?"
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On March 23 2010 09:26 RoieTRS wrote:
You would get 500x more meaningful replies if you described what happened and showed some attempt at learning on your own, instead of asking "How do I stop this?"
ok its the terran cheese rush that everyone should know but ill add it to OP.
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cannons seem to be the only way to stop this i have found
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can you write what happens? some people (inculding me) are to lazy to download replays without any infos. and usually the OP wrote his own ideas and thoughts. seems like sc2 changed this board too...
edit
there was an other thread with the same discussion, if you scout it at first spot you can defend it easy with 2 gate chrono. if you dont scout it and wanted to play 1 gate robo you are pretty dead.
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1. This isn't the 4 min whatever all-in that's significantly harder to stop
2. There's like 10 different variations of a 2 rax ~6 minute push that'll stomp 5 stalker defense anyway without even being all-in
3. Balanced two-gate Zeal+sentry with decent micro and macro will do fine
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I didn't know what to do with the cheese rush at first, but I learned that it's usually best to wall up your ramp so they can't push. While scouting, be sure to look for gas. If you don't see any gas, better get another gateway and even a forge for a couple of cannons. Then just hold them off from there. If necessary, drag some ofyour probes, but nonetheless you'll succeed with a bit of micro and then win with an econ advantage.
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i haven't seen this cheese in action yet, but do the terrans put their SCV on auto repair and does it mess with the AI of your units?
edit-
Seems to me like the problem is not the strategy, but the scouting and build you used. Also, your micro was pretty bad in your base, you basically jammed all your probes so that the marines could rape them easily.
and the 2nd game, where you made canons and shit, same thing. You just over-committed to him doing it (even though he lied, you should ignore talking and scout etc). Like, can't you open with 1 gate, seems like you got the 2nd one too soon. Also, do you have to open with stalkers? Seems like they aren't very good vs anything early of terran anyways. Is it possible to have a collosus/storm/DT by the time he does it? At the very least an obs?
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i did it 20times and never lost (as T)
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If the terran does not fuck up his micro/the build you're dead without cannons, when you go cannons he expoes and is ahead a ton.
If the terran is at all competent you won't stand a chance, expect there to be some kind of nerfing of marine build time or something in the future as the build currently gives terrans free wins on short distance maps and even on big maps its very unfair.
This coming from a T player btw.
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i thought there was a thread already but yes in this thread the OP is much clearer.
its impossible to stop if a good terran does it without cannons, and as a P i make a forge after my gateway every single time. Unless i see terran not add on his barracks or go fac but thats very rare.
in the other thread lorelei played some tler a bunch of matches pvt to test but won most of the games cause imo his micro was far superior and the terran didnt know how execute the rush properly. he sent ALL his scvs each time and keep his scvs right infront of his marines lol 
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i do this all the time vs protoss hahah :D
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As a protoss player in top10 plat, I find this used against me alot, only way for me to stop this is to scout the terran ALOT (but the terran doesnt even need to do as much scouting as me).
Furthurmore, if I do find out he is SCV rushing me with 6 marines (usually by checking if he has 2 early barracks and no SCV on gas), I have to IMMEDIATELY get a forge up and build 2 cannons at my choke or its gg. However, if I do forge up, the terran can fast expo right away (2cannons+forge = 450minerals), giving him a huge econ adv.
Overall, I think blizzard needs to fix this, this strategy allows terran almost a free win against 90% of protoss players on small maps if executed correctly. I would think maybe lowering the SCV
s HP to 50, or lowering the SCV damage to 3 would help a little.
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Here
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/298
Mind you this only works if you know that they are going to do the cheese...
I played this guy in a ladder match and he did the cheese and won. I asked him for a re and I just knew for some reason that he was going to do it again. So this is how I stopped it.
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Thanks Comeback, thats the exact same guy that did it to me!
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On March 24 2010 00:42 RexFTW wrote:
Thanks Comeback, thats the exact same guy that did it to me!
Ya further talking to him after game 2 he told me "I always do this". So I'm glad I assumed the cheese on game 2. 3 gate worked nicely, especially after he tried to expand. Gave me a big advantage
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On March 24 2010 01:01 TheComeback wrote:
Ya further talking to him after game 2 he told me "I always do this". So I'm glad I assumed the cheese on game 2. 3 gate worked nicely, especially after he tried to expand. Gave me a big advantage
Do you think this build is viable against "standard" terran plays of MM+Ghost or fast banshee?
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On March 24 2010 02:02 RexFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2010 01:01 TheComeback wrote:
Ya further talking to him after game 2 he told me "I always do this". So I'm glad I assumed the cheese on game 2. 3 gate worked nicely, especially after he tried to expand. Gave me a big advantage Do you think this build is viable against "standard" terran plays of MM+Ghost or fast banshee?
Sure, if the terran goes for a FE, a timing push would definatly put him back... I would probably go 2gate with a robo instead tho, so u can get immortal then continue tech to Collosus.
After you do your initial timing attack you need to expand (especially if you set his econ behind even further)
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I'm surprised no one mentioned a fast sentry to wall off your choke to give you more time. To me that would be significant enough to give you the unit advantage + cutting some of his forces off to kill some of his units.
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On March 24 2010 02:26 Alventenie wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned a fast sentry to wall off your choke to give you more time. To me that would be significant enough to give you the unit advantage + cutting some of his forces off to kill some of his units.
I use sentries sometimes to buy time for cannons to warp in (since i warp them in once i c the masses of scvs/rines move out from their base, they dont come in on time).
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On March 24 2010 02:26 Alventenie wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned a fast sentry to wall off your choke to give you more time. To me that would be significant enough to give you the unit advantage + cutting some of his forces off to kill some of his units.
I would rather have canons/units that do more damage as opposed to a sentry to wall off... it doen't buy THAT much time plus a smart T would have rally sent to your choke anyway and rines build much faster tan and toss unit...
However
+ Show Spoiler +a SMART terran wouldn't use this crappy build anyway
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Why did no one listen to me?
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
These are all replays of fairly standard two-rax openings with a standard 6+ min push, except without bothering to wall-off so you can even know "this guy's going to have so many marines he doesn't even need to wall". The only differences are that he's going pure marine instead of MM, and he pulled all his SCVs because there's enough toss out there in the ranks that play sloppy T1.5 that going all-in with the push is going to pay off often.
You could be matching the marine mineral count with zeal and the gas cost with (a) sentry and pull probes when you see all-in SCV and stop this easy. Notice I dont' mention stalkers? The only thing your stalkers 'counter'(and 2 stalker equall 2 zealots and a sentry so this is important) are reapers.
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On March 24 2010 02:40 Mnijykmirl wrote:
Why did no one listen to me?
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
These are all replays of fairly standard two-rax openings with a standard 6+ min push, except without bothering to wall-off so you can even know "this guy's going to have so many marines he doesn't even need to wall". The only differences are that he's going pure marine instead of MM, and he pulled all his SCVs because there's enough toss out there in the ranks that play sloppy T1.5 that going all-in with the push is going to pay off often.
You could be matching the marine mineral count with zeal and the gas cost with (a) sentry and pull probes when you see all-in SCV and stop this easy. Notice I dont' mention stalkers? The only thing your stalkers 'counter'(and 2 stalker equall 2 zealots and a sentry so this is important) are reapers.
Im guessing nobody listned to you because either
a) the people dont agree with what your saying
b) you sound very snobbish and mean
c) There is no "one rush to rule them all" every T rushes a bit differently and depending on what route the Protoss went to defend it a different timing will work better or worse.
d) The map being used makes a difference... so the "4:20 all-in rush of 6 rines and SCV's" isn't always valid, on steppes of war the T will have a easier time pulling it off than blistering sands or desert oasis or Lost temple because of map size...
e) you point about matching mineral costs makes no sence and doesn't matter what-so-ever.A group of marines could easily take down a higher "mineral cost" zealot army because of micro...
f) As for stalkers only countering reapers your highly mistaken... Zealots + stalkers and a sentry or 2 work extremely well against MM... the zeal force the terran to move back and micro the sentries provide shield to make zeals live longr while the stalkers continue to fire...
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If it comes after you have a sentry, it's not going to work, you can easily defend with a forcefield, if it comes earlier, they won't have enough stuff to beat zealot+probes
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On March 24 2010 02:40 Mnijykmirl wrote:
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
Do you have a replay of this? (Just curious, never seen it so far I think)
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The Comeback just finished up this thread.
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On March 24 2010 06:19 apollo_440 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2010 02:40 Mnijykmirl wrote:
None of these replays is of the 4:20 something all-in rush of 6 rines and SCVs that's SIGNIFICANTLY harder to stop because it requires some fine and tricky micro. This is NOT the terran cheese rush.
Do you have a replay of this? (Just curious, never seen it so far I think)
http://www.warp-whistle.com/replays/Early Marine and SCV Rush 2010-03-14 21-59-44.SC2Replay
^What I found with a quick look around.^
Toss doesn't try to counter with probes or anything in this so it's not a perfect example but you get the basic overview. Note the timing on the 6th marine- everything else is just travel time/slack. If you choose to proxy rax any or cut a little corners it can be attacking earlier. For example, I've seen the 6 marines and SCVs up toss's ramp on Blistering Sands @ 4:30.
-SCVs block zealots and probes from marines
-The only way to beat it without a fast forge for cannons is to get zealots and probes on the marines with micro
-This is extremely difficult and if it wasn't for the trick to remove worker collision by telling the probes to mine a far away mineral patch to pass through the SCVs, possibly impossible
-That's 2 more marines on the way and if terran chooses to be a little bit slower by getting an orbital command, it's pretty easy to keep a few marines constantly being added, so the rush isn't done just because a couple of marines die.
-Terran can wall like normal and the build isn't even all-in until the moment SCVs are pulled. This makes it hard to scout. The only indication that it might be all-in is if you spot a second barracks going up and no gas with your probe before it dies.
-If T scouts forge, they're well suited to start a CC on 18 or 20 and get a FE advantage, which makes it a win-win move.
Players shouldn't assume that anything all-in w/ pulled SCVs is THE infamous all-in as outlined above, that it's virtually impossible to beat rather than just weak T1.5 play, and then present the false dichotomy that you have to cannon and Terran gets an expansion, or die.
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One option on some maps if you scout them coming for you is to move your zealots outside your base. As the marines/scvs move up you bring the zealots up, probes to the ramp and flank them.
Cannons are far better, but I've had some success with this when I got a late scout of the tactic.
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Cannons and Sentries are your tickets. Both DESTROY both this rush and mass Marine rush, and if you can hold off this rush his economy is completely screwed, so the fact that you went Cannons early won't hurt you that much.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
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I only watch the first posted replay. Having said that it is a difficult strat to stop, but I believe that it can be stopped with a better build than simply stalkers.
As other's mentioned. You're replay doesn't address the 4minute all in which is REALLY difficult to stop in the current metagame. Nonetheless, I still believe that the creative pros will find a way to counter this specific build. Do I know the counter? No. I'm not focused on playing Protoss right now, but I'm excited to see what that build will be.
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The general problem it seems is that there are tons of variations of the terran push it seems which all take a slightly different way to stop.
For the general way to stop it I think a fast forge and sentry works.
If you start off with a quite general bo:
9 pylon
13 gate
15 assimilator
16 pylon
18 cybernetics core
If nothing strange happened up till now you are able to transition into anything with a fast colossi build or whatever. If there is a good chance he SCV rushes though (no refinery or 2nd rax spotted)
add a forge ASAP at this point. Chrono boost out a sentry and stop mining gas (after first 100) to put all probes on minerals. The 2nd pylon you have should be about 10 range from the ramp.
SCV's/probes take about 23 seconds to go from ramp to ramp in steppes of war which is about the minimal distance I think. Sentry forcefield is directly ready as it comes out and lasts 15 seconds, so if terran leaves base and you scout it at the ramp it takes 23+15 = 38 seconds to reach you, a bit more if you take into consideration marines move slower then SCVs. Cannons take 40 seconds. So the moment you see him going for it directly make 2-3 cannons, they should be more then half done by the time he is at your ramp. Forcefield the ramp and when the forcefield is gone the cannons should exactly be done. Use probes, the 1 or 2 zeals you have the sentry and the 2-3 cannons to fight at the choke. Focussing your cannons + sentry on the marines should let you win. If he changes tactic at any point after moving out with scv's his mineral loss is more then your loss with forge and cannons and you should be ahead.
The sentry finishes at ~4:05, 2nd cannon should be done at ~4:30.
The timings can be seen in this replay:
http://starcraft.gamesports.net/de/replays/577/
The toss loses however because the first forcefield is misplaced which is CRUCIAL to this defense. It's a 15 second difference which is you having 2 cannons done and probes ready to defend or him killing you off. Preferrably you split up a few scv's on your side of the ramp with your forcefield so the sentry and zealot can kill them offcourse.
Obviously the defense only works at maps where the choke can be closed with 1 forcefield but those are all maps excluding scrap station. Scrap station however has a longer base to base walk.
Scouting is absolutely key though as any extra delay on the forge will let you be run over. If somehow terran comes before 4:05 this might also fail but I believe that push can just be repelled with sentry zeal probes as that early his 2nd rax will not have kicked in yet.
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EPT
