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So I've been playing with zerg for a bit and I had been going a build something like:
10 overlord
10 pool
drone to 15
Queen to 17
zergling to 18
extractor
overlord at 17 with next larvae
and then just whatever from there, but after playing some games I've found that when I get my queen I have an excess of larvae/lack of minerals so by delaying the queen slightly I think this gets a better result
10 overlord
11 extractor trick
drone to 13 when overlord pops (all available larvae)
pool at 13
gas at 12
drone up to 15/16 (i dont really remember
queen to 17/18
overlord
Do any other zerg players have comments on this/experience? I find that the larger amount of drones earlier allows for some optimal use of the extra larvae when the queen comes out at the start and thus a stronger econ. In ZvZ I've found that I am usually on the defensive with this, but because of map distances I will always be able to match/have greater numbers by the time they arrive at my base, along with a stronger economy, which allows me to push out and win midgame.
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I have found the following to be very effective for both ZvZ and ZvP
10 Overlord
13 pool (queen as soon as pool finishes)
15 gas
16 Overlord
17 roach warren
This timing gets you enough gas to pump ALL roaches as soon as your first queen larva pops...so you should have a really quick 6-8 roaches. Sometimes I do not have enough gas for roaches...so I just use that larva on zerglings.
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On February 20 2010 06:54 Mazar wrote:
So I've been playing with zerg for a bit and I had been going a build something like:
10 overlord
10 pool
drone to 15
Queen to 17
zergling to 18
extractor
overlord at 17 with next larvae
and then just whatever from there, but after playing some games I've found that when I get my queen I have an excess of larvae/lack of minerals so by delaying the queen slightly I think this gets a better result
10 overlord
11 extractor trick
drone to 13 when overlord pops (all available larvae)
pool at 13
gas at 12
drone up to 15/16 (i dont really remember
queen to 17/18
overlord
Do any other zerg players have comments on this/experience? I find that the larger amount of drones earlier allows for some optimal use of the extra larvae when the queen comes out at the start and thus a stronger econ. In ZvZ I've found that I am usually on the defensive with this, but because of map distances I will always be able to match/have greater numbers by the time they arrive at my base, along with a stronger economy, which allows me to push out and win midgame.
i have been using both of these.
for zvz i go 10 overpool into roachs as it seems to be the new muta/ling, then just out micro/macro them
something else i try a lot is:
10 overlord
13 pool
17 extractor
16 queen
18 overlord
150 minerals roach warren
150 min/100 gas lair
21 drone
start roachs
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On February 20 2010 08:01 Khaymus wrote:
I have found the following to be very effective for both ZvZ and ZvP
10 Overlord
13 pool (queen as soon as pool finishes)
15 gas
16 Overlord
17 roach warren
This timing gets you enough gas to pump ALL roaches as soon as your first queen larva pops...so you should have a really quick 6-8 roaches. Sometimes I do not have enough gas for roaches...so I just use that larva on zerglings.
wouldn't someone who popped 6 zerglings when pool finishes kill you?
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I just 12 hatch against all or 12 pool depending on what i scout.
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On February 20 2010 11:27 iCCup.CoLd wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 06:54 Mazar wrote:
So I've been playing with zerg for a bit and I had been going a build something like:
10 overlord
10 pool
drone to 15
Queen to 17
zergling to 18
extractor
overlord at 17 with next larvae
and then just whatever from there, but after playing some games I've found that when I get my queen I have an excess of larvae/lack of minerals so by delaying the queen slightly I think this gets a better result
10 overlord
11 extractor trick
drone to 13 when overlord pops (all available larvae)
pool at 13
gas at 12
drone up to 15/16 (i dont really remember
queen to 17/18
overlord
Do any other zerg players have comments on this/experience? I find that the larger amount of drones earlier allows for some optimal use of the extra larvae when the queen comes out at the start and thus a stronger econ. In ZvZ I've found that I am usually on the defensive with this, but because of map distances I will always be able to match/have greater numbers by the time they arrive at my base, along with a stronger economy, which allows me to push out and win midgame. i have been using both of these. for zvz i go 10 overpool into roachs as it seems to be the new muta/ling, then just out micro/macro them something else i try a lot is: 10 overlord 13 pool 17 extractor 16 queen 18 overlord 150 minerals roach warren 150 min/100 gas lair 21 drone start roachs
Would this be viable against someone who teched to mutas off 2 hatcheries and defended with a couple spines and some lings?
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2hatch in ZvZ is imo pretty bad, cuz you have your queen anyway and just don't have the minerals with the larvas you get.
all ZvZ's were pretty aggro so far and you just can't get a enough drones out to macro hard, pretty much like in sc1 but just totally differnt with the roaches and the different strategies people are trying out
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Here's a list of zerg build opennings from looking at beta streams (hope it help organize info a little):
10 pool:
Agressive, medium econ
10 drone
10 pool
10 overlord
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
At which point you take gas (don't know the exact time) and get roaches (currently recommended), ling speed or lair
10 overpool
Agressive, slightly higher econ
10 drone
10 overlord
10 pool
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
Same as 10 pool openning transition.
13 or 14 pool (= 12 pool)
Semi-agressive, strong econ
10 overlord
scout here
13 pool
@100% pool 3 zerglings
@100% pool queen
The theory is because of the distance between bases you can get away with a late pool and therefore a better econ. You can transition roaches or lair and get roaches after.
14 hatch (= 12 hatch)
(vs protoss)
(weak vs 2 gate openings)
Little agression, High econ
10 overlord
scout here
14 hatch
13 pool
13 gas
@100% pool 3 zerglings
@100% pool queen at both hatches
*place a spine crawler if you see early agression
I saw David Kim do this build vs Nony and it worked (after he didn't follow up and lose his base though). However, I am only loosely basing this opening off his game with Nony; I have added queens where he did not make it. You can tech to roaches then tech to lair and get mutas.
Please note that I have not tried these and they may not work in an actual game. I had based these off of beta streams.
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On February 20 2010 12:42 Happy_Alpha wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here's a list of zerg build opennings from looking at beta streams (hope it help organize info a little):
10 pool:
Agressive, medium econ
10 drone
10 pool
10 overlord
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
At which point you take gas (don't know the exact time) and get roaches (currently recommended), ling speed or lair
10 overpool
Agressive, slightly higher econ
10 drone
10 overlord
10 pool
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
Same as 10 pool openning transition.
13 or 14 pool (= 12 pool)
Semi-agressive, strong econ
10 overlord
scout here
13 pool
@100% pool 3 zerglings
@100% pool queen
The theory is because of the distance between bases you can get away with a late pool and therefore a better econ. You can transition roaches or lair and get roaches after.
(vs protoss) (weak vs 2 gate openings) Little agression, High econ [1]10 overlord scout here 14 hatch 13 pool @100% pool 3 zerglings @100% pool queen at both hatches 15-17 gas *place a spine crawler if you see early agression [1]I suggest you move your second overlord to your natural so you can dump creep and therefore can build a crawler earlier (just before the hatch pops) I saw David Kim do this build vs Nony and it worked (after he didn't follow up and lose his base though). You can tech to roaches then tech to lair and get mutas. Please note that I have not tried these and they may not work in an actual game. I had based these off of beta streams.
So basically unusable at gold rank and lower as just about every toss seems to either cannon rush or 2 gate push.
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I think nony had 2 gates. Maybe not I should watch again.
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It was diff nony didn't just go 2 gate build up 10-15 zealots and push your ass he was doing other things.
Nony did gate-gas-core-gas-robotics facility-gate
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On February 20 2010 13:14 Virtue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 12:42 Happy_Alpha wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here's a list of zerg build opennings from looking at beta streams (hope it help organize info a little):
10 pool:
Agressive, medium econ
10 drone
10 pool
10 overlord
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
At which point you take gas (don't know the exact time) and get roaches (currently recommended), ling speed or lair
10 overpool
Agressive, slightly higher econ
10 drone
10 overlord
10 pool
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
Same as 10 pool openning transition.
13 or 14 pool (= 12 pool)
Semi-agressive, strong econ
10 overlord
scout here
13 pool
@100% pool 3 zerglings
@100% pool queen
The theory is because of the distance between bases you can get away with a late pool and therefore a better econ. You can transition roaches or lair and get roaches after.
(vs protoss) (weak vs 2 gate openings) Little agression, High econ [1]10 overlord scout here 14 hatch 13 pool @100% pool 3 zerglings @100% pool queen at both hatches 15-17 gas *place a spine crawler if you see early agression [1]I suggest you move your second overlord to your natural so you can dump creep and therefore can build a crawler earlier (just before the hatch pops) I saw David Kim do this build vs Nony and it worked (after he didn't follow up and lose his base though). You can tech to roaches then tech to lair and get mutas. Please note that I have not tried these and they may not work in an actual game. I had based these off of beta streams. So basically unusable at gold rank and lower as just about every toss seems to either cannon rush or 2 gate push.
im sorry but I have to say it - please dont post builds if you arent even in beta ffs! I mean you got that david kim build completely wrong, he didnt build double queens against nony, he just built one and a very late one at that, nowhere near when the pool finished. Plus you make a suggestion which is downright impossible - spawn creep for overlords is only available after lair. Instead of mocking you, I hope people see the problem with theorycrafting on a game they cant play and stop making fools out of themselves °_°
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I am in beta... lol
Oh lol you quoted the wrong guy kind of there...
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Russian Federation410 Posts
So far I've been using:
1. ZvT
15 pool, 15 gas, 16 ovi, Queen, 6 lings, 21 gas, 22 roach den, lair, spam roach ling then nat. (+1 ranged attack vital)
2. ZvZ
a. 10 gas 10 pool 10 ovi start with 2 on gas, after ordered ovi put 3rd on, remove as you get 100, get speed first, spam lings, run in kill drones, slow lings have absolutely no chance of catching even one fast ling, if he goes roaches, go RD + nat, take 2nd gas, get muta.
b. 13 pool 13 gas, 15 ovi, 15 queen + 6 lings, 18 roach den.
3. ZvP
a. 2 player maps - b. 13 pool 13 gas, 15 ovi, 15 queen + 6 lings, 18 roach den, 2nd gas, 4-6 roaches + nat.
b. on 4 player maps with possibility of closer positioning - 10 pool 10 gas, 10 ovi, queen + 6 lings, 15 2nd gas, spam lings + drones, 22 exp, go muta/hydra + ling push. (+1 def vital)
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On February 20 2010 13:49 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 13:14 Virtue wrote:On February 20 2010 12:42 Happy_Alpha wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here's a list of zerg build opennings from looking at beta streams (hope it help organize info a little):
10 pool:
Agressive, medium econ
10 drone
10 pool
10 overlord
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
At which point you take gas (don't know the exact time) and get roaches (currently recommended), ling speed or lair
10 overpool
Agressive, slightly higher econ
10 drone
10 overlord
10 pool
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
Same as 10 pool openning transition.
13 or 14 pool (= 12 pool)
Semi-agressive, strong econ
10 overlord
scout here
13 pool
@100% pool 3 zerglings
@100% pool queen
The theory is because of the distance between bases you can get away with a late pool and therefore a better econ. You can transition roaches or lair and get roaches after.
(vs protoss) (weak vs 2 gate openings) Little agression, High econ [1]10 overlord scout here 14 hatch 13 pool @100% pool 3 zerglings @100% pool queen at both hatches 15-17 gas *place a spine crawler if you see early agression [1]I suggest you move your second overlord to your natural so you can dump creep and therefore can build a crawler earlier (just before the hatch pops) I saw David Kim do this build vs Nony and it worked (after he didn't follow up and lose his base though). You can tech to roaches then tech to lair and get mutas. Please note that I have not tried these and they may not work in an actual game. I had based these off of beta streams. So basically unusable at gold rank and lower as just about every toss seems to either cannon rush or 2 gate push. im sorry but I have to say it - please dont post builds if you arent even in beta ffs! I mean you got that david kim build completely wrong, he didnt build double queens against nony, he just built one and a very late one at that, nowhere near when the pool finished. Plus you make a suggestion which is downright impossible - spawn creep for overlords is only available after lair. Instead of mocking you, I hope people see the problem with theorycrafting on a game they cant play and stop making fools out of themselves °_°
Sorry I was suggesting that you could have two queens and even though I don't have beta I could see how good they are so I kind of added them in. Even so I was loosely basing it on his build I should have stated this.
I didn't not know creep spawn was lair tech because I was using the sc2armory site for reference it didn't say anything about that so I'll change that.
And are you saying people without beta can't theorycraft, that's not fair  at least we can try it doesn't mean we'll make a fool of ourselves.
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On February 20 2010 22:24 Happy_Alpha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2010 13:49 damenmofa wrote:On February 20 2010 13:14 Virtue wrote:On February 20 2010 12:42 Happy_Alpha wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Here's a list of zerg build opennings from looking at beta streams (hope it help organize info a little):
10 pool:
Agressive, medium econ
10 drone
10 pool
10 overlord
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
At which point you take gas (don't know the exact time) and get roaches (currently recommended), ling speed or lair
10 overpool
Agressive, slightly higher econ
10 drone
10 overlord
10 pool
scout optional
@100% pool 3 zergling
@100% pool queen
Same as 10 pool openning transition.
13 or 14 pool (= 12 pool)
Semi-agressive, strong econ
10 overlord
scout here
13 pool
@100% pool 3 zerglings
@100% pool queen
The theory is because of the distance between bases you can get away with a late pool and therefore a better econ. You can transition roaches or lair and get roaches after.
(vs protoss) (weak vs 2 gate openings) Little agression, High econ [1]10 overlord scout here 14 hatch 13 pool @100% pool 3 zerglings @100% pool queen at both hatches 15-17 gas *place a spine crawler if you see early agression [1]I suggest you move your second overlord to your natural so you can dump creep and therefore can build a crawler earlier (just before the hatch pops) I saw David Kim do this build vs Nony and it worked (after he didn't follow up and lose his base though). You can tech to roaches then tech to lair and get mutas. Please note that I have not tried these and they may not work in an actual game. I had based these off of beta streams. So basically unusable at gold rank and lower as just about every toss seems to either cannon rush or 2 gate push. im sorry but I have to say it - please dont post builds if you arent even in beta ffs! I mean you got that david kim build completely wrong, he didnt build double queens against nony, he just built one and a very late one at that, nowhere near when the pool finished. Plus you make a suggestion which is downright impossible - spawn creep for overlords is only available after lair. Instead of mocking you, I hope people see the problem with theorycrafting on a game they cant play and stop making fools out of themselves °_° Sorry I was suggesting that you could have two queens and even though I don't have beta I could see how good they are so I kind of added them in. Even so I was loosely basing it on his build I should have stated this. I didn't not know creep spawn was lair tech because I was using the sc2armory site for reference it didn't say anything about that so I'll change that. And are you saying people without beta can't theorycraft, that's not fair at least we can try it doesn't mean we'll make a fool of ourselves.
of course you can theorycraft all you want cus its fun to do so, but yeah, sometimes you will make people who actually play the beta smirk with suggestions like that 
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I did this ZvP Build on paper and would like someone to try it out.
4x Drone
Overlord
6x Drone
Pool (You should have 338 mins or so, do it when u are making your 6 drone and not before)
Hatch -> Expo
Drone
Overlord
Drone
Extractor
Roach Warren
Queen
100 % Extractor -> 3 to gas
4 x Ling (2 eggs only, normally 1 in the expo) Right now his first zea should come to your base, your queen also pops out in this moment, inject larva and use it to defend too.
4x Roach -> Start making roaches, about 4 is ok imo, and then just mass drones, and mass drones, in main you should have 18 in min and 6 on gas, and in the expo 3 on gas and 6 on min, go lair in the next 100 gas after the 4 roaches, from here play as you want, but you should have a good economy.
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I'm having issues with phoenixes and voidrays as Z. anyone offer some advice?
My standard build goes something like this:
10/10 ovie
14/18 pool
14/18 gas
16/18 ovie
16/18 queen
20/26 lair
22/26 drone from 16-22
22/26 2nd gas
Hydra Den when lair is done --> hydra/ling
queen should pop at around 20? if not then the lair timing is definitely different it should be right after queen pops.
^ This build has worked for me generally. This is the build I'm having isses with:
10/10 ovie
14/18 pool
14/18 gas
16/18 ovie
16/18 queen
20/26 lair
Roach warren when lair is at ~25%
22/26 drone from 16-22
22/26 2nd gas
Roach/ling
I think the two issues are 1: i might not need to get a second gas although the second gas makes a far smoother transition into hydra/roach/ling or muta/roach/ling but what I've noticed is that the past 2 games both tosses turtle up with cannons and then tech to stargate for phoenixes and void rays. the void rays i held of the second time with a hydra transition after the roaches but I really had issues with phoenixes. anyone enlighten? spores maybe?
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Wire we use very similar builds but I get my 2nd gas right after the queen at 18/18 then another drone. It has worked well for me so far.
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When I expand I do
10 lord
14 pool
17 hatch
16 queen
18 extractor
18 lord
18 extractor
Then lair or roach or ling speed or whatever
It's probably really crappy, it's not something i planned it just emerged in my play
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geez, u guys pay way too much attention to specific builds already
imo ofc..
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david kim appears to go 13 or 14 hat quite a bit
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13hatch
15pool/gas
16 queen at expo
then adapt to whatever your opponent is doing, lings are out in time to stop any rush.
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I've been fine against bunker rushes and 2 gates while going:
15 hatch
14 pool
16 gas
15 overlord
15-17 lings
Except that if for whatever reason P goes forge first there is nothing to stop them from making a pylon at your nat and just spamming cannons if you don't go pool first. Since cannons now have 2 armor and 250 health, you would literally have to pull all your drones just to stop them from finishing before your lings are out.
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i tried david kim's build order vs terran and it seems to be very effective as long as you don't go up against someone who rushes medivacs.
this was his build in one replay i watch.
10/10 ovie
14/18 hatch
14/18 pool
14/18 gas (3 drones on gas when done)
15/18 ovie
@100% pool, get up to 12 lings (you can only get like 4 initially but then you tack on more)
@100 gas research ling speed
12 lings = 21 pop, drone until 23/28
23/28 queen at main
drone until 25
25/28 ovie
25/28 queen at natural
30/36 lair (should be right after queen is done)
33/36 ovie (drone until 36)
41/44 (lings until 41)
41/44 second gas main
41/44 second gas natural
41/44 ovie
43/44 (lings until 43)
43/44 spire
51/52 baneling nest
from there you go lings banelings mutas. very effective.
which brings me to my question. How do fellow zergs modify their builds toward the 2 medivac rush build?
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EPT
