Hey, first of it all, congrats to the finalists! This thread is mostly dedicated to those that didnt made it to the finals to ask questions about their maps.
Tho first check out previous "Mapping Guidelines" and the TLMC8 & 9 feedback thread before you submit your questions, as I don't have much time and I have to use it where counts.
Sadly because of time constraints I wasnt able to do a write up of possible changes to the finalists for their iteration phase, I'll try to write some things up, but can't promise I will, I do have a QA doc from the QA phase of cleaning your dirty ass maps tho!
If you would like to receive feedback on your map, post the name of your map, the overview and any specific questions you might have, I sadly dont have much time, but I'll try to get to as many of you as possible.
Important! please try to ask specific questions, and not asking for "General feedback", as doing that will make me less likely to give you feedback because of the considerable amount of time it would take me to write all the ideas down.
There might be videos this time around, there might not! No promises, only hopes and dreams.
Let the memery begin!
For the record, I "probably" wont be able to answer questions at least until this saturday (17), b/c work/life/podracing etc
And for all that's holy, try to keep the questions kind of specific, I know it is kind of hard to do, but have mercy
I'd like feedback about the two maps I submitted. Specifically for Pharaoh I'm wondering if the judges had bigger issues with the relative chokiness of the middle, or how the back base influences Zerg build orders, or rushes or what? For Mayak I guess I don't have much specific to ask, so maybe some comments about the thirds would be nice.
Alright, So I limited down what I want feedback from. To my strongest maps in my eyes that didn't make it. These maps are of course was Promanus Grounds, Za'Trevix City (that I was going to change its name if it made it to the finalist) And Forgotten City.
Each Question I ask for this map will be a general question from me. But each question will be different, all in one post because I'm lazy. So let me begin.
A standard map I made, As when I submitted it I had some expectations that it would at least make it or almost makes it but wasn't good enough. So here's the question I have for this map. Whats the Prime reason this map didn't make it? Was it that there was some pushes too strong? the layout wasn't so good? etc.
Za'Trevix City, a map I was going to rename to Zalvation City if it made it. Which it didn't sadly. This map I based on odyssey, I did notice that overlords couldn't really hide anywhere and I was going to fix that. But, Was there a racial imbalance on this map? Or generally was lacking in design?
Forgotten City, a rush map I designed that in my eyes. Could of perfected what a rush map should be if I designed it properly. This Rush map that could turn into a standard map and must of had something that made it unable to make it far enough to become a finalist. So what was that reason? Was the map design just not enough? Was there a push that just won vs Zerg/Terran or Protoss?
Thanks for any answer you can give, I could of split this to 3 posts but I rather not. That's all though.
Particularly why each map was eliminated, what the breaking points were, and whether it was particularly close to making it in the end. Thanks in advance.
On February 15 2018 07:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I'd like feedback about the two maps I submitted. Specifically for Pharaoh I'm wondering if the judges had bigger issues with the relative chokiness of the middle, or how the back base influences Zerg build orders, or rushes or what?
Pharaoh main issue is the Third, and how exposed it is for Zerg, because of the rocks on the main ramp, and the diagonal rocks near the third, it means that Z becomes basically forced into taking the forward third, which because of the choky center and shorter rush distance is very, very hard to defend against timing pushes. Sadly when doing a 15 hatch, the lings wont have had the time to take down the two 400hp rocks before you need to take your third, meaning that Z would need to open with an aggressive build and do no aggression with it in order to take its defensible third.
The shrieking breeze style main bases, have a place in my heart, I just love em, but they are just so hard to implement with the current tools we have got available, if we had eggs, or something akin to that, they would be easier. I dont want to say that people should not do them, that would be dumb, as I consider they have great potential, because they offer a solid way of creating two clearly defined expansion patterns right out of the main, with the potential for also offering alternative third bases.
The idea of having a choky half and a more open half of the map is old as mapping itself, Pharaoh is interesting, but the bottom half of the map is probably too choky, that with the extra lotv strength of tanks and other units makes it dangerous balance wise, Im not sure how the map could be corrected in the bottom half, as making it more open would also make attacking down the already rather short nat 2 nat rush distance easier.
As far as actual feedback is concerned couple things:
Ovie pods :3
Not strictly necessary, as the entirety of the bottom half of the map is already basically filled with potential ovie pods. I think even adding the ones near the ramps might be kind of an over-reach, but adding the one near the gold base would be kind of alright.
In the previous version of this, the rocks on the "inner side" of the ramp allow for easier harassment and attack of the fourth base, because of the wide ramp and the rock positioning, it doesnt seem intentional
Hope that image gets the point across, on the current version a harassment party or army which attacks the fourth base by the northern path without taking the rocks and has any degree of surprise factor will also have a broader concave than the defender's army, because the defender's has the Townhall building blocking one of its flanks, this makes for an awkward defense of the base compared to the attacker's aggression and positioning, who also will have the rocks on his side to help cover his retreat path.
Id recommend reducing the size of the ramps there, just a bit, maybe swap the 6x6 rocks by 4x4 ones as well if the ramps are resized.
Watch out for these small gaps behind mineral lines, specially behind cliffs, as marine drops can be painful to deal with when they are dropped on those areas, Im not saying dont do them, because they can be useful to give more strength to T drops, but be mindful of them, that forward third is exposed already, but I have seen these gaps on maps made by other people, and I thought dropping this by.
As an overall for the map, try to improve the balance towards Z regarding the third, that might mean do changes to the 2 400 rocks in the main ramp, it might mean, needing to block the natural ramp instead? + Show Spoiler +
hard to say, remember to make walling off behind the main ramps easier as well + Show Spoiler +
The main base doesnt need to be so constricted as in the example, as it makes pathing in and out of the main base harder for armies wherever there is a drop to defend in the base, but atm the walling of the main as shown on eris people will require 3 3x3 buildings, and if you decide to reformat the main's ramps to allow for easier Z taking a third, then you might find yourself in a situation where you need people not to wall off at the actual ramps, but slightly back
Although I have not given this Map a very high chance for a finalist place, I would like to know why exactly the Map was eliminated. Was it the unconventional middle, the rock at the potential third base, the sometimes a bit narrow attack paths, or everything together? ^^
On February 18 2018 22:42 Alcrin wrote: Frozen Ravine + Show Spoiler +
Although I have not given this Map a very high chance for a finalist place, I would like to know why exactly the Map was eliminated. Was it the unconventional middle, the rock at the potential third base, the sometimes a bit narrow attack paths, or everything together? ^^
We cut this one early on for low quality before handing it off to the rest of the judges. Uvantak may want to go more in-depth, but the biggest contributing factor from my perspective was how choked it was / how narrow the attack paths in the map were.
On matters of the Thirds, I think that Mayak was a rather solid contender to the finalists, the Main-Nat-Optional Thirds set up is very solid, I liked a fair amount the fact that the forward third, which is rather exposed is also the one closer to the natural, which gives players some good gameplay options.
The biggest issues with the map come from execution of the side bases and the central walls, the terrain all around the fourth bases "works" but I dont see it as being particularly well executed, the big doodad cluster from my perspective reads as an after thought for an area which had excesses of space left over which could instead have been put to better use in the center.
Regarding the walls, and doodads, they are not instantly recognizable as sight blocking walls, but that's a minor issue, the main gripe I had with em is that they are too wide for their purpose, leading to spacing issues in the center.
Here's EastWatch for comparison:
EastWatch takes on Superouman's ideas of "Bridges and Open Terrain", he creates tight chokes, and wide open areas on either side, it is a very interesting way to force people to jokey for position. + Show Spoiler +
♦ ● Chokepoints ♦ ● Open areas
If you wish to attack into the area in front of the natural from the middle of the map without first flanking, you will have a tough time.
As feedback, if you wish to use Superouman's Bridges/Choke ideas, id heavily recommend to try and make more drastic differences between the areas where chokes are located and the "open" areas, instead of making the center too overall chokier and maze like.
Mayak is overall a pretty good map, it is very clear that you have the understanding of distances between bases very well laid out, so focus on trying to achieve a good idea on how to handle chokes vs openness in maps. And as a small line, id also recommend you to at least for Mayak's case, use a more consistent cliffing style, look at Negative, NewSunshine, Iez, or RQM for them, at least from my own personal opinion, it really helps regarding making a map's theme and aesthetics stand out better.
I'd like to know if there was anything wrong with the design of the Third Base/ High ground near the middle of the map for Planetary Succession; I've received literally no feedback so far Lel
On February 19 2018 07:35 Gavinrivera wrote: I'd like to know if there was anything wrong with the design of the Third Base/ High ground near the middle of the map for Planetary Succession; I've received literally no feedback so far Lel
We cut this one early on for low quality before handing it off to the rest of the judges. My personal reasons were the three base layout (slightly more worried about that natural than the third) and the overly narrow passageways cluttering up most of the map, although this is probably one of the better maps we cut early.
You might also want to check rush distances in-game in real time with a worker instead of whatever method you're currently using, because I think you sent us the wrong numbers. All of your rush distances were listed as 15-20s longer than everyone else's.
Sentinel's Watch: were there any balance issues with the layout, or were other issues getting in the way? I think i ended up putting it in the macro category too, probably more of a "standard" layout even though it's kinda larger? Feedback appreciated.
This one was probably removed because of the long rush distance, the unscoutable proxy potential and elevator plays being too strong
On February 15 2018 07:44 Meavis wrote:
This is a 4p map, it was doomed from the get go. For some reasons after 20 years of starcraft people have decided that 4p maps are shit in Sc2 while they're still totally fine in BW :D This reasoning is misguided imo. Everybody (even pros) loved Whirlwind or Frost but now they'd be trashed in a map making contest.
On February 15 2018 07:44 Meavis wrote:
This one was probably a bit too funky with the warping potential behind the gold minerals. But tbh I think this map is god damn sexy and would deserve to be re-submitted when the next TLMC happens if you remade it into a more standard map.
That's just how I see it though , I'm not a judge. As for the other two maps idk. Maybe the urban one is to chokey and the snowy one has too many rocks, idk
Edit : @NewSunshine
MAYFLY is guilty of being a 4p map and GOLDEN ROOM probably scared the judges. Single mineral walls are almost uncharted territory, can you imagine 3? :D
The others idk either. Would have loved to see Mayfly, Angel Tower and Midnight on the ladder
On February 15 2018 08:03 Pklixian wrote:1. Promanus Grounds + Show Spoiler +
A standard map I made, As when I submitted it I had some expectations that it would at least make it or almost makes it but wasn't good enough. So here's the question I have for this map. Whats the Prime reason this map didn't make it? Was it that there was some pushes too strong? the layout wasn't so good? etc.
The main things with the map, at least from my angle arent per se with the layout of the map. One can create some very simple layouts and have them succeed, but the issues are on the execution of the map.
There are several issues, but the key to understand is that the map is not horrible, it is actually pretty alright, but because of many compounding issues it couldn't make it vs the competition.
First the biggest issue, and that's that non-standard mineral lines such as the gold base werent allowed in the standard category, but ignoring that and continuing on main bases are of an alright size if a bit too small, the natural choke finds itself on a difficult place, usually mapmakers will use a 2x sized ramp for naturals, a 3x with rocks like on Merry-go-round , or a standard 3 3x3buildings+zealot wall (10 hex), but not two of them mixed together, here you used a 3x ramp + a nonstandard 2.5 3x3 buildings
It is not bad, but it is awkward, not only because players arent really used to it, but because it uses more map area than necessary, and in this case it forces you to push the ramp forward, which slightly increases the exposure of the third bases, not the end of the world, but it is another thing which "takes points off".
Lack of surround path at least until rocks have been taken down means timing pushes become stronger, and because of the high strategical and tactical value of the highgrounds, and I dont think that the map itself allows to players the space required so they can account for those stronger timings.
Distances between bases are in general ok, same with distances between players, tho openness is a very high concern, specially with Liberators+tanks and other heavy terrain control focused comps.
The fourth bases, and the way they are set up are also a concern, not directly because of this + Show Spoiler +
Siegetanks being able to reach the hatch
but because the entirety of the "base" itself can be easily sieged from the lowground.
On February 15 2018 08:03 Pklixian wrote:2. Za'Trevix City + Show Spoiler +
Za'Trevix City, a map I was going to rename to Zalvation City if it made it. Which it didn't sadly. This map I based on odyssey, I did notice that overlords couldn't really hide anywhere and I was going to fix that. But, Was there a racial imbalance on this map? Or generally was lacking in design?
As I said above, I personally dont have issues with maps that are simple in design, there can be brilliance in simplicity.
For Za'Trevix city, the biggest issue is the overall openness, size and how straight forward the attack path is, Oddysey got away with its attack path because of its size, and it managed to keep things more or less balanced thanks to the distances armies had to traverse, sadly the concept kind of breaks down when the maps are reduced too much, we got cybros as a finalist, and I think that's probably as close to a "small odyssey" as it is possible to achieve in current LotV, also if you notice in Cybros the ramps leading to the very center from the natural are missing, in order to increase the rush distance a bit more and stabilize the map some.
On February 15 2018 08:03 Pklixian wrote:3. Forgotten City + Show Spoiler +
Forgotten City, a rush map I designed that in my eyes. Could of perfected what a rush map should be if I designed it properly. This Rush map that could turn into a standard map and must of had something that made it unable to make it far enough to become a finalist. So what was that reason? Was the map design just not enough? Was there a push that just won vs Zerg/Terran or Protoss?
This one sadly might have gotten cut early, so I dont have easy access to the map file.
I cant judge very well because of the doodads, but is the natural base wallable with 3 3x3 buildings? it seems that it might not be, barely so.
The layout itself, is "alright", but the map is probably too generic, from the overview alone, it seems rather well executed, sadly it is not enough to overcome its limitations in lack of scope. (Also, the 1 geyser 8 min gold base)
Maybe templar can add the reasons for it being cut early.
As general advice, id say focus on improving in spacing, specially in areas where battles happen, id say Forgotten city was probably the best map in that regard, where as Promanus was too chokey and ZaTrevix too open, Forgotten was in a good place, openness wise.
It is very late as Im writing this review/feedback, so if I forget anything I might come up to it in the future
I will say, thanks for the feedback. I myself kinda blinded myself when it came to the golds, and fixed that error going into my macro map/second rush map. Forgotten City though is able to be walled off at the nat, seeing of what you said if I had what you expect a gold base to be, and maybe tweaked the non gold third a bit to be less terran/toss favored. I do remembering the decoration there making it so zerg had to attack drops from one locations.
Anyways thanks for the feedback, and I hope next TLMC I can create maps that cover up the minor errors or large errors created in these maps (and maybe just keep 8 min 1 gas gold to new maps as it favors zerg too much)
So, those in the discord group of mapmakers ( https://discord.gg/NpeSYTs ) and those that visit MapCave.net already are aware that Im doing a small video series on the TLMC Finalists. But id imagine that there's a fair chunk of people here who would be interested in watching those videos, so here you go!
The videos are not designed for the "broader community", they are pretty dry and kind of technical in some areas, but still, they will be interesting for anyone trying to learn SC2 Mapmaking and some details which they might miss.
Ok, so because of the considerable amount of Standard Maps, I had to divide the amount of work into parts, so here's the first part of the Finalist Feedback for the Standard Category maps!
Ideally, the final batch of Feedback would come somewhere around Sunday, maybe Monday. And after that I would retake into giving feedback to the non-finalists.
For Khala Sanctuary, was it too chokey to be considered standard? The rock at the linear third definitely doesn't need to be there. I felt pretty good about this map but I suppose I did submit it to the hardest category. Were there any other major flaws?
This concludes the feedback towards the finalists themselves which Sidian and others asked about, so I'll take a couple "off" days (like 4), and after that I'll continue doing written & video reviews of the maps posted on this thread :3
On April 04 2018 00:36 Meavis wrote: so, thats it again?
No, I'll continue, but I havent been able because I have been doing other things, like contacting you all (including broodwar and korean mapmakers) to get you recognition prizes from Blizz.
Overpass got cut rather early because it is a non-standard map sent to the standard category.
The walloff at the natural is non-standard
And the rocks mean that if you do the walloff you will still be exposed to a degree in the lategame wherever your opponent tries a "sneaky" attack taking down the rocks and catching you out of position. The counterplay to that is take down the debris yourself, but that leaves you exposed to shelling from the highground right in front of the pathway between the nat and previously blocked fourth (third?) base.
We also have got the issues with the third base.
Tanks even when they cant reach, Terran can still exploit Medivac/marine with tank support combinations from the highground to take down/heavily cripple enemy Toss/Zerg players.
And because of the rocks which because of their high HP can't be taken down easily early game (too high of time commitment), means that the non-T player will have a veeery hard time trying to deal "head on" with the sieging enemy army.
Then accounting for the Xel'naga up there it means that you just wont be able to get any surprise surround because you will be easily spotted doing so
The entire idea of the elevated highground is cool, but currently unless some deep changes are done to the map, it just doesnt work balance wise.
On February 15 2018 07:44 Meavis wrote:
iirc we spoke about this one, iirc, agreement between the judges was that the map would favor Z too strongly because of the rich mineral line in the back and the distance between players. The changes to the center were good, but metagame has changed since the creation of the map and current metagame dictates that the size of the map it is slightly too big. Treachery is iirc around the same size (ish), but it also has a lower resource density in the initial bases making it "less dull" for today's meta.
A good comparison might be with Neon Violet Square regarding resource density, but that map's bases are harder to defend than Labyrinth's (easier to win a positional battle there because the defender has a hard time getting in position to defend big attacks to his bases in front)
On February 15 2018 07:44 Meavis wrote:
Black Lotus had little discussion, but the biggest issue is this one:
The walling off area is too much forward, I know that this is a design thing, but it was/is too easily exploitable by Z players, specially so in the early game.
Solution is straight forward, allow players a secondary walloff point close to their TownHalls
I can't say much else regarding how easy to split, or how the map might be too macro friendly, if you want that kind of feedback id suggest you to annoy Snute and Pengwin, they as Zergs might have other things to say about the macrofriendliness of the map.
WCS![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EzrkfEU.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/A4xzJgO.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ExUw95s.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/T95RU4a.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/phPHqIH.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5SdL2oN.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/kQ4cC80.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/2s08agZ.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zIoExM6.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/B6mkXII.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FWGNeVI.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xVjk4BI.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/92e7JTo.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/o0waude.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IHxJWPN.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/uZ9eZPN.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/BEaYWf0.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7ws0nG0.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Dthef6Z.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/vwGOgM0.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9z6UOy2.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/znaRxzo.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/X87eI0r.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://ktvmaps.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/terrain-560.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://ktvmaps.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/terrain-559.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7LKDtmy.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/VcGOjcD.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/G0OEAqs.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/qyMvBZU.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gjc4BuC.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.citrusdigital.com/files/sentinel-overview.png)
, I'm not a judge. As for the other two maps idk. Maybe the urban one is to chokey and the snowy one has too many rocks, idk 
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dBVRtFP.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/i9HkP22.jpg)
Siegetanks being able to reach the hatch![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/tt4cX6C.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YRhSv6f.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MOf3O0m.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GZPnSDQ.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xTqS9yK.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/eJTfeQx.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EVsaA5r.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zJFcLyv.jpg)
