|
Hi guys, I'll try to keep it short this time! Mostly because if you want to read the long part you have the map entry on my site for that!
Bastion is a map that required quite a bit of work for me to get it to a stage where I'm comfortable with it, the core design of the map will probably remind you a bit of maps like King Sejong Station, or Nemesis and that's not by accident, Bastion, KSS and Nemesis all use the same core layout, or Core layout 8 as I like to call it simply because the pathable areas tend to create a 8 shape on the map which is caused by the use of diagonal mirroed symmetry, a very underused type of symmetry by community mapmakers until a few months ago because it can be very can be very challenging to use this kind of symmetry and core layout without it having serious issues in the early to midgame because of the need for it to have open naturals, or for the need of it to be used in conjunction with other types of symmetry which usually means adding rotational symmetry to the design creating asymmetries when the map is a 4p one like Bastion.
But anyhow, what I dig about this kind of symmetry over the rotational for 4p maps is that even when the 8 core layouts needs empty spaces for it to work well, it still allows for some very unseen characteristics on 4p maps, like the potential use of bases as walls because of the relatively short distance when spawning in close spawns, this way we could even see the return of interesting 12 base 4p maps, which has been lacking on SC2 since the launch of the game. I have only mentioned a couple things, but I don't want to drag on longer, here's hoping to see more community mapmakers try to come up with ideas to explore more this unseen facet of map design!
hfhf!
Map is published in:
[AM],[EU],[KR],[SEA]
This map has WCS Gameheart enabled!
Overview:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/unpqlDg.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +90º Overview ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tY28kyr.jpg)
Old Overviews
+ Show Spoiler +
Information/Analyzer:
+ Show Spoiler +Map InformationMap Size: 176x176 Close Spawn's Rush Distance: 238 Close Spawn's Nat to Nat Distance: 178 Cross Spawn's Rush Distance: 290 Cross Spawn's Nat to Nat Distance: 230 Size of Natural ramp leading to the Third: Standard 2x sized Ramp. Analyzer: Unavailable at the moment. Old analyzer pics + Show Spoiler +
Eye Candy:
+ Show Spoiler +
Small info about the map:
+ Show Spoiler +
§ No Xel'naga Towers
§ Central Ramps can be a very dangerous place to be if you are not putting attention!
§ Forward Third base can't be easily reached by Siege Tanks.
§ If your opponent spawns in Horizontal or Vertical to you, beware of flanks and surprise harass over the center of the map.
§ Be sure to check for hidden bases now and then, Bastion is a big place.
§ Expanding towards your opponent in close spawns can be a smart way to secure your expansions from harassment if you are planning on putting constant pressure.
§ The small high grounds at 3, 6, 9 & 12 have Line of Sight blockers over the ramps, be careful when placing your units near these positions.
§ Attack distances can be very long, which means defense to big attacks is slightly easier, so find ways to attack unexpected positions.
Changelog
+ Show Spoiler +§ Version 1.1
Removed miss-placed GameHeart splats.
§ Version 1.0
Published
Remember that the map can easily be found by searching not only KTV, but also SMA in the custom maps section!
For more of my work and more details regarding some design elements of the map be sure to check; KTVMaps.wordpress.com
|
From it's first Look I must say it looks very well out balanced - I like the double rocks 
Edit: You submitted this ? It reminds me a lot of Lerilak even if it's layout is different
|
|
|
On February 16 2016 05:54 RoomOfMush wrote:
Its the browdergasm.
Yeah, a pity DB moved onto Heroes, I'm sure that he would have put Bastion right onto ladder/WCS just because rocks heh
@MightyGear: Yes, Bastion is one of the maps I submitted to the Blizzard contest thingy.
|
Not that they're the same maps, but this reminded me of Korosen Sei a bit.
|
I thought that a lot myself
|
Well they are using the same symmetry, and side entrances in the Natural serve basically the same purpose than the ones on Koronsen Sei's Main, you should have seen some of the earlier versions, those looked more similar with the mineral line split apart and right on front of the Main ramp, it was (iirc) Negative's idea to leave the Nat bases as they are now.
|
FANTASTIC! Reminds me a bit of eTcetRa´s map (a while back)
|
One critique I have of this map might be the proximity of possible 4th and 5th bases to a player's main. I feel like in a game where it is necessary to aggressively expand that there should be a degree of risk in taking your expansions. This map contains a lot of relatively easy to defend bases; in fact you wouldn't even really have to change the position of your army to defend many 4th bases (depending on spawning position of players and other factors) after expanding. I think maps with with an easy-to-defend 3rd are reasonable, but maybe this is a little much? Maybe some others disagree? Just a thought as I've never seen how games play out on it, but nice map otherwise! Cool concept
|
Yeah, this seems to be a trend in LotV (and SC2 in general).
I am personally a friend of bases that are more out-there, but I think that doesnt work that well in SC2 compared to BW. And LotV might have made it worse.
|
I don't know that people are truly considering how hard it would be to defend bases on LotV maps like these, they just see "oh these bases are super close together, therefore easy to defend"
The close-together-yet-not-that-easy-to-defend thing is a natural progression given that we need to fit more bases into LotV maps but we don't want them to be 200x200,
I'm not necessarily saying that applies to this map perfectly (4 base may indeed be a bit easy), but it's definitely something I've noticed in a ton of map threads/reddit posts/w.e
|
On February 20 2016 07:16 Fatam wrote:
I don't know that people are truly considering how hard it would be to defend bases on LotV maps like these, they just see "oh these bases are super close together, therefore easy to defend"
But is that a good thing?
I really enjoyed the "hard to take but easy to defend" expansions from broodwar. You needed to put in some effort to establish the base, but once you did you could hold it easily. In LotV its really easy to get the base but its very difficult to defend it if your main army is not in position. I guess its a matter of taste.
|
I think both types of bases can be cool tbh, and have their roles
|
On February 21 2016 07:21 Fatam wrote:
I think both types of bases can be cool tbh, and have their roles
agreed, bw itself had both types. a common map layout was to have 2 options for a 3rd, a close and open mineral only base, and a base with gas, further but behind single-width ramps.
but i think the "further but easier to hold" base needs to become more common in sc2, right now it's pretty underused.
|
|
|
Sorry for being away, I checked some of the comments yesterday but forgot to write back :x
On February 20 2016 09:45 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2016 07:16 Fatam wrote:
I don't know that people are truly considering how hard it would be to defend bases on LotV maps like these, they just see "oh these bases are super close together, therefore easy to defend" But is that a good thing? I really enjoyed the "hard to take but easy to defend" expansions from broodwar. You needed to put in some effort to establish the base, but once you did you could hold it easily. In LotV its really easy to get the base but its very difficult to defend it if your main army is not in position. I guess its a matter of taste.
The biggest issue is that LotV is not broodwar, here you cannot go ahead put a pylon walloff on top of a 1x ramp with a disruptor or HT behind it and be safe from ground harassment because to start with Disruptors simply can't shoot between pylons and the HT's storm is weaker and has a smaller area than in BW too, and I'm not even talking about how air play and air harassment is even more prevalent in SC2 than in BW, or how the extremely strong sc2 pathing increases the DPS density of armies meaning that indirectly buildings are not as beefy as they were in BW, you also need to take in mind that creating choky-er Thirds/Fourths also means that the player that took the base also needs to pass over a choke point so his army becomes delayed if trying to defend a base that's being assaulted.
Beware that I'm not trying to shit on you for even wanting that kind of bases, I want them too, but these things are not simple "easy to fix" obstacles and they require quite a bit of pondering and see how well will LotV's Meta will develop, and check out that I'm not even talking about stuff like strong buffs to units that control terrain like Siege tanks right now, because these units (Tanks, Lurkers, Disruptors) are up there dictating how maps are to be designed. Now I and the other guys are slowly working these things out, we want to create that kind of maps because to me at least they are quite fun to play on, but in my case at. least I would much rather have a map that has our old system in place than risk the map being broken just because it isn't Creative™ enough.
Anyhow, I love talking about these kind of things, if you have ideas about how we could achieve having more "Far but easy to defend" shoot away, as I said, I love reading and talking about this kind of stuff.
|
Yeah I know its not the map makers fault that bases in SC2 and in BW dont work the same way. I dont really know what exactly the map making community can do to make this change. I guess hard to take but easy to defend bases are simply not what blizzard has intended for LotV. They want harassment, they want destruction and terrible terrible damage.
But if you do find a way to change things up I would surely appreciate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
WCS![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sqDoDCu.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EKWJ9pk.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a0kUgfh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ek9f5so.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Zm0j9Wd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TgQIzjE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D72OypG.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qe5eZsv.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yDfUG1B.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/54x535T.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oC1jQEb.jpg)
