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On October 06 2013 16:44 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 16:01 larse wrote:
I would rather say a trend of more open and hard-to-get Third.
Today, every map's third is quite similar. No one dares to try something newer on the Third. If the 3rd is hard you will see 2 base all ins all day long, since 2 base all ins are much more viable than 1 base all ins. It would be interesting to see what would happen, but I assume that it will probably only be someone tries to take 3rd and gets denied, although it depends on the map design and with clever features it can turn out nice..
Not that your wrong, mosk, but more to the point, the zerg requirement of a viable 3rd base in the face of ubiquitous FE builds from terran and protoss constrains how 3rds have to be. The desire not to pigeonhole protoss into 2base allins every game against zerg also constrains the 3rd design. Together this leaves not very many options.
It's possible that having open naturals -- that work -- could shift the equilibrium point for the 3rd base and allow more variety.
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On October 07 2013 10:03 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 16:44 moskonia wrote:On October 06 2013 16:01 larse wrote:
I would rather say a trend of more open and hard-to-get Third.
Today, every map's third is quite similar. No one dares to try something newer on the Third. If the 3rd is hard you will see 2 base all ins all day long, since 2 base all ins are much more viable than 1 base all ins. It would be interesting to see what would happen, but I assume that it will probably only be someone tries to take 3rd and gets denied, although it depends on the map design and with clever features it can turn out nice.. Not that your wrong, mosk, but more to the point, the zerg requirement of a viable 3rd base in the face of ubiquitous FE builds from terran and protoss constrains how 3rds have to be. The desire not to pigeonhole protoss into 2base allins every game against zerg also constrains the 3rd design. Together this leaves not very many options. It's possible that having open naturals -- that work -- could shift the equilibrium point for the 3rd base and allow more variety.
Very good point, the only way I see it could be viable is extremely long rush distance or having collapsible/destructible rocks; but then it wouldn't really be a open natural as there would be something to block it until you can destroy it. However it would create another path of attack when it is open as you would have the normal way in and then the rocks. This has already been done kind of in one of the new maps, I believe its called Frost LE or might be another one of them. I cant think of the name right now.
Kind of got off point there xD, for the hard to get third, I feel that zerg wouldn't have to much of a problem getting it as long as the distance isnt to great, like going outside your natural and your third is right there but then the balance of terran and protoss getting a third which is impossible to kill off come into play as they can just wall if off and have their army right near it at all time, this would create a very passive game from them until they get up a 200/200 deathball and just stomp the zerg army. So the hard to get third isnt really a viable idea, it would be okay for non ladder games in which you can just mess around with friends but for the ladder maps will need to be more balanced than that in order to keep all races happy
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On October 07 2013 10:03 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 16:44 moskonia wrote:On October 06 2013 16:01 larse wrote:
I would rather say a trend of more open and hard-to-get Third.
Today, every map's third is quite similar. No one dares to try something newer on the Third. If the 3rd is hard you will see 2 base all ins all day long, since 2 base all ins are much more viable than 1 base all ins. It would be interesting to see what would happen, but I assume that it will probably only be someone tries to take 3rd and gets denied, although it depends on the map design and with clever features it can turn out nice.. Not that your wrong, mosk, but more to the point, the zerg requirement of a viable 3rd base in the face of ubiquitous FE builds from terran and protoss constrains how 3rds have to be. The desire not to pigeonhole protoss into 2base allins every game against zerg also constrains the 3rd design. Together this leaves not very many options. It's possible that having open naturals -- that work -- could shift the equilibrium point for the 3rd base and allow more variety.
You can sort of get around this by having 2 different 3rds: one that is very open and farther away from your opponent and one that is fairly choked and a fair distance from the natural, but slightly toward the opponent. I think SiskosGoatee's forward third on Cruel Sire is a pretty good implementation of this.
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On October 08 2013 03:45 RFDaemoniac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 10:03 EatThePath wrote:On October 06 2013 16:44 moskonia wrote:On October 06 2013 16:01 larse wrote:
I would rather say a trend of more open and hard-to-get Third.
Today, every map's third is quite similar. No one dares to try something newer on the Third. If the 3rd is hard you will see 2 base all ins all day long, since 2 base all ins are much more viable than 1 base all ins. It would be interesting to see what would happen, but I assume that it will probably only be someone tries to take 3rd and gets denied, although it depends on the map design and with clever features it can turn out nice.. Not that your wrong, mosk, but more to the point, the zerg requirement of a viable 3rd base in the face of ubiquitous FE builds from terran and protoss constrains how 3rds have to be. The desire not to pigeonhole protoss into 2base allins every game against zerg also constrains the 3rd design. Together this leaves not very many options. It's possible that having open naturals -- that work -- could shift the equilibrium point for the 3rd base and allow more variety. You can sort of get around this by having 2 different 3rds: one that is very open and farther away from your opponent and one that is fairly choked and a fair distance from the natural, but slightly toward the opponent. I think SiskosGoatee's forward third on Cruel Sire is a pretty good implementation of this.
Yeah, that is a good example of trying to work around the usual problems.
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On October 07 2013 10:03 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2013 16:44 moskonia wrote:On October 06 2013 16:01 larse wrote:
I would rather say a trend of more open and hard-to-get Third.
Today, every map's third is quite similar. No one dares to try something newer on the Third. If the 3rd is hard you will see 2 base all ins all day long, since 2 base all ins are much more viable than 1 base all ins. It would be interesting to see what would happen, but I assume that it will probably only be someone tries to take 3rd and gets denied, although it depends on the map design and with clever features it can turn out nice.. Not that your wrong, mosk, but more to the point, the zerg requirement of a viable 3rd base in the face of ubiquitous FE builds from terran and protoss constrains how 3rds have to be. The desire not to pigeonhole protoss into 2base allins every game against zerg also constrains the 3rd design. Together this leaves not very many options. It's possible that having open naturals -- that work -- could shift the equilibrium point for the 3rd base and allow more variety. You're reversing the problem. We want map variety in order to break out of the standard metagame and force player to find alternative strategies. What you're saying is 'You can't have this type of variety, because if you try to execute the current metagame on it it wouldn't be balanced.'
Indeed, we want people to do something else. 2base upgraded zerglings into ultras for instance takes a much later third and as it stands is also better on open and harder to secure thirds. Surely a strat like that could be adapted to work on a different map.
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The problem is not Zerg, the Problem is Protoss. If Protoss can't get a 3rd base then it will go 2base all in all the time. A 3rd base should be viable, even only somewhat, or else the metagame on the map will be of a singular style.
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Zerg needs +1 base as the conventional wisdom goes, which is the first parameter for how 3rds should be once you grant everyone an automatic 2nd base. If you just want to make the 3rd impossible for protoss so that zerg inevitably can take theirs and protoss can't, I don't see what that achieves for "variety of strategies".
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On October 10 2013 02:43 EatThePath wrote:
Zerg needs +1 base as the conventional wisdom goes, which is the first parameter for how 3rds should be once you grant everyone an automatic 2nd base. If you just want to make the 3rd impossible for protoss so that zerg inevitably can take theirs and protoss can't, I don't see what that achieves for "variety of strategies".
This whole thread is based on not giving everyone an automatic 2nd base...
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Baneling all ins become a bit of an issue if you don't have a choked natural. The various forms of Baneling cheese weren't even known back when Metalopolis was in the map rotation.
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I am very disappointed not even one open nat map got to the finals, was sure many maps would include it, but no.
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New rush map - We also would like to try a rush map in a slightly different fashion than before. Our goal here is to create a map where the main to main distance is standard, nat to nat is only very slightly shorter, but due to it being really open, aggression is preferred. The map as a whole feels fairly standard but the action just happens much faster.
So they do listen!
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On December 06 2013 08:11 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +New rush map - We also would like to try a rush map in a slightly different fashion than before. Our goal here is to create a map where the main to main distance is standard, nat to nat is only very slightly shorter, but due to it being really open, aggression is preferred. The map as a whole feels fairly standard but the action just happens much faster. So they do listen!
What is this? Oh I see. Yeah, well let's wait and see the map first.
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Despite the former balance concerns (cross position, anyway), I really miss the open naturals like from Metalopolis. ><
I am hoping this new rush map is similar in that regard.
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EPT
