Unit Tester: Venelisks currently cost 150/50 in game. (I like this price btw) Unit Tester price is 75/25 (No bueno)
Just looking at some matchups, Venelisks KINDA RAPE MUTALISKS on a larva - larva basis. Just some numbers, without micro or manual focus firing, or upgrades
Venelisks will always beat mutas when the venelisks outnumber the mutas by exactly 2. (They can outnumber mutas by 1 when the numbers are under 4, but that's unlikely to just build 3 or less mutas in zvz -_-) Since venelisks already come out in two's, it shouldn't be 2 hard to outnumber mutas. That said, Venes have 3.35 speed, while mutas are at 4 (thx blizz -_-), so mutas can run away from venas. (Venelisks can turn on a dime and have more range, so it's still possible for venes to micro against mutas).
What do I see in this? Muta wars no longer as prominent, since venelisks can kill mutas with less or equal larva and definitely less gas. I wonder what this will lead to further down. Maybe Ling Bling -> Venelisk defense -> Ultras... or something.
Too much theorycrafting Excitement.
Need to find Rhodesian online to do some ZvZs. What's tommorow? Saturday? Isht is about to get real.
Edit: With this, plz revert Spores back to normal dmg. Both Hydras AND Venelisks are cheap answers to mutas. The 45 dmg spores won't be neccesary anymore. (@ the very least put it back down to 30)
Spore crawlers Armored? Make 'em Medium, just for lolz
I believe that spores already do no bonus damage anymore. If it's not in the patch notes, I know for sure that it's in the lobby slideshow on the stream (those little info cards :D). If they are doing +dmg, that's a bug and we'll get it sorted out.
I like the idea of venalisks killing mutalisks in a frontal engagement but being slower. Could lead to some epic micro, dodging of armies and stuff. But since there is no air splash damage in Zerg, there is no way to remove the venalisks in lategame without massing them yourself. Maybe corruptors should come back as a muta upgrade for that role? If you don't want to see them in too large a scale, you could have them apply a non stacking damage on time effect in an area with their attack. Could be useful in muta and venalisk wars to break a stalemate (with the two air swarms unable to engage, using them could help break the stalemate).
I would like to note that non massive Tempests and Massive Reaver-style Voidrays feels really really good. Everything in Stargate feels distinct and unique, which is cool. The balance may make Tempests better, but I am not quite sure. Tempests trade poorly with Hydras and Stalkers, so positioning/target fire is everything. It also encourages agression with MSC support to pull them out.
On May 24 2013 10:22 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: Irradiate, Dark Swarm have definite effects with limited counterplay. I think the Viper's pull ability is pretty similar. I see big units occasionally escape in HoTs, and in OG there are even more counter-measures. Isolation Pulse, Guardian Shield, Feedback, and Hallucination are all options a Protoss has against Vipers spellwise. They also have 7 Range Stalkers which can make Pulling a risky proposition. Zerg has Venalisks, Fungal, NP, Abduct, and massable Hydras. Terran has more supply efficient mech units which makes Abduct much less powerful as well as EMP, Snipe, Seeker and the 9 range Warhound/Viking. (It costs 225 energy to Pul 3 Warhounds vs 75 Energy to pull 1 Thor.)
Ah yeah I totally forgot about how guardian shield works in this mod, that probably makes a huge difference.
How has your oracle been working out so far? Twilight shroud is obviously very cool, but with envision being moved to the mothership (envision is honestly the only thing about the HotS oracle that I find "cool"), it seems like it would fill roughly the same niche IE get it out and hope it does massive damage, otherwise keep it alive and cast the one cool ability it has at a key moment later in the game. In HotS at least, the oracle is kind of messy and flawed considering a group of phoenixes can also do massive worker damage, but the amount of damage a single oracle can do is also a part of why stargate is more viable, so I suppose it's better that it be there than not be there. I'm curious how you envision (no pun intended) this unit playing out in your mod. Does the pulsar beam effect work out to be more interesting than contamination in HotS/WoL? I'm watching vods on your twitch channel right now so maybe there's a video that answers my question but I haven't found it yet.
The Oracle is the ultimate synergy unit for Stargate compositions. You want to have one in any SG force if you can afford the gas. Phoenix can't kill base defenses. The Oracle can disable turrets with its attack, allowing your Phoenix to raid with ease. Revelation empowers tempests and carriers granting either/or additional range and information, allowing the Protoss player to position his forces optimally. Twilight Shroud assists and Carriers Tempests and Voidrays get their damage off. Every unit is now (finally) distinct in SG. Phoenix are harassment and air control, Tempests are a cross between Scouts and Siege Tanks, Carriers are high end assault units that can offer an insane amount of durability with leash micro, Voidrays are flying reavers, allowing Toss air to (conditionally) clear the skies (and lands) of threats, and the Oracle is the glue that can make any air composition stronger, while offering some light harass utility.
Woops I mixed up envision and revelation. I was going to be pretty bummed if you guys moved that ability off the oracle but I was mistaken.
One other thing I've been finding to be extremely frustrating in HotS is the medivac boost. It's a good idea for increasing micro and the back-and-forth aspect of the game, but it's just too much IMO. I think boost should cost 25 energy so that excessive use of the ability eats into the utility of a medivac composition to keep bio healed, but sporadic use doesn't. I'm definitely not the only person to call for this change in HotS (it's one of the few community bandwagons I've had no trouble jumping on). Have you guys seen the abusability of medivacs in your mod go down for some other reason, or stay the same, or did you not even think it was a problem to begin with?
I don't think it's a problem personally; currently, its even more punishing for Protoss to be out of position vs Bio due to slower warp gates and speed drop medivacs. This means that Protoss and Zerg have to split up their armies more vs squad based tactics. Starbow's take on this is to increase cooldowns of things like Blink, Boost, and increase the defenders advantage as well as slightly slowing down the economy. They certainly get things to play a bit more like BW in that games are slower and more methodical and based on positioning. But I think one of the great things about SC is that you can play many different kind of games, where you can say "no, this isn't going to be about positioning, this is going to be about tempo/efficiency,economy,ect." Meaning that each style, not just race, needs ways of breaking or bypassing well defended positions. Boost and Blink, and Recall to Nexus, and Nydus all do that in unique and cool ways. Too much defender's advantage risks making games stale.
Ok, after some testing we will be making changes to the Venalisks to broaden their usage as an Air-based support unit, and have some broader applications. Hydras vs Stalkers seem to be even, which is great. Additionally, we are looking to tweak the Voidray and Colossus to be more reliable.
On May 21 2013 00:36 Nyvis wrote: I think this could replace the venalisk and the problems it creates (destroys colossus even better than corruptors, etc). Give the venalisk a less potent attack (smaller range, no special ability)
I just had a brilliant idea inspired by the HotS Campaign!
1. Drop venalisk damage to 4 +4(light) 2. Vipers now shoot up, with 10 +10 (armored) or something like that. Use Campaign Viper for the stats on the weapon. 3. Vipers are now a muta evolution (because it gives them an alternative for lategame transitions to the slow moving broodlord)
Vipers are too costly to be an AA unit and honestly would be hard to balance given their kit.
That said, giving Venalisk damage is a GREAT start to fleshing out the unit. I will be throwing up a set of patch notes in the next day or two. Remember, due to a graduation, we will not be streaming this Saturday. So enjoy the lack of skype/pm harassment.
Hey all, bit if a minor dev update. We are looking at ways to make the Corruptor work in a simple and intuitive manner. We are thinking of having them have an attack that is a bit more interactive and mirrors the broodlord along with a simple, powerful, but limited single target ability that let's them support ground compositions.
Additionally, we are moving forward on making the sounds of SC2 more visceral. We are considering using some of these sounds for the Ultralisk. Thoughts?
Well it depends if there is copyright on that sound. Adding copyrighted stuff to your map is a brilliant idea if your plan is to have Blizzard remove it...
Also too much custom sound is going to tank the performance.
On June 06 2013 14:40 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: Additionally, we are moving forward on making the sounds of SC2 more visceral. We are considering using some of these sounds for the Ultralisk. Thoughts?
On June 06 2013 14:40 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: Hey all, bit if a minor dev update. We are looking at ways to make the Corruptor work in a simple and intuitive manner. We are thinking of having them have an attack that is a bit more interactive and mirrors the broodlord along with a simple, powerful, but limited single target ability that let's them support ground compositions.
Additionally, we are moving forward on making the sounds of SC2 more visceral. We are considering using some of these sounds for the Ultralisk. Thoughts?
brb switching to zerg
allready switched to zerg for hots. glad i did. 2 base ultra every game now.
EPT
