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On May 16 2013 12:39 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
Interesting! A bit clunky, but it certainly could work.
We are currently leaning towards letting them morph into swarm hosts at Lair since they have complementary playstyles (As shown in HotS PvZ) and share upgrades.
I wouldn't worry too much about being accused of 'BW nostalgia'. Most of what you're doing here looks pretty SC2-minded to me and if the swarm host functions best in this way then so-be-it.
That said, the hydra morphing into roaches (wherever in the tech tree this is unlocked) has occurred to me as well and seems to make a clean kind of sense. I really like the idea of keeping the pool of generalist zerg units as limited as possible and accomplishing the rest through morphs. But your roach in its current form might need to be adjusted if you tried to do this, and even more so if the hydra ALSO gains the ability to morph into the swarm host at some point on the tech tree, which could start to get a little convoluted and present some confusion over why you would choose one morph over the other (unlike devourer vs guardian for example.) However one thing I DO like about the WoL/HotS roach is zerg's ability to throw them up as a sort of improvised shield in emergencies (cost ineffective unit allows the zerg to stay alive awhile longer), so maybe this is one possible way to retain this function to some degree.
For 'lore' reasons, have you put into any thought into what the swarm host 'should' morph from? My first thought was the infestor, because they're sort of similar shapes and both play host to lesser organisms. But this is also kind of a specialist evolving from a specialist which might be messy. More just a thought experiment here.
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Thinking of that that way, maybe we could have roaches being a bit less specialized, but sacrifice/quick reaction units : quicker, a bit more toughness, but a lot less range, meaning that they would be less useful in direct engagements (range means only one rank would fire), but usable as throwable, spammable, quickly produceable units, where the hydra would be usable as a main army component : less life, a lot more damage and range, a bit more costly in gas and slower (and maybe slower to produce). Should be really time effective and good without upgrade, but fall back quickly. This should really avoid being the current sc2 roach, and be butchered by AoE nearly as much as hydras (it's armored, should be two-shot killed by tanks too, and non-ligh specialized colossus). Should not be a problem in ZvZ either since in small numbers, zerglings would win, and in large numbers, hydras would be clearly more powerful.
And the interesting part in the above problem : both would evolve in a specialist : swarm host for the roach (implements the "throwable" mechanic with the locusts), and infestor for the hydra (good support unit in large engagements). Both would be unlocked by the same building (one for the hydra/roach, one for the infestor/locust), but would need to produce the previous unit.
There should also be one upgrade for the roach and one for the hydra to put them into and upgraded specialist role in the late game. I like the idea of extra attack speed for hydras as a defensive unit, and maybe a burrow toughness+speed for the roach).
This gives several options to the zerg :
- use throwable roaches to stabilize, and use the leftovers for specialists, either by making swarm host and a highly dedicated and powerful army, or burrowroaches as a pressure and harass unit to strike back (imagine, your opponent go for an early timing, you defend with roaches, throwing them away, then with the leftover, you counterattack as soon as you on the way lair is finished, and use burrow to get back at him).
- use powerful hydra army to strike/be on equal foot, then upgrade the exact quantity you need to infestors to complement your army.
- use roach-hydra mix as a powerful army for early pressure, with a possibility of transition if you want.
The possibility for them to be useful early, but have transitions (multiple ones) late sounds good to me.
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This has nothing to do with 'game' design (I'm behind the functionality of the unit), but maybe the venalisk model could actually just be tiny corrupters? IMO the only cool thing about the corrupter was always its model so it's a shame to see it go. The only utility of doing this is that the corrupter model contrasts more against masses of mutas, lings, locusts etc. Obviously not that important but thought I'd throw it out there.
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Well, if we end up deciding to add the corruptor back in with different mechanics (probably a muta morph) we'll need the model available :D
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Stupid idea ahead : Add the corruptor as a roach morph :D
They look similar (plating, armored), spew a projectile...
But it's probably dumb game design wise. :<
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On May 19 2013 12:41 topsecret221 wrote:
Well, if we end up deciding to add the corruptor back in with different mechanics (probably a muta morph) we'll need the model available :D
Is this something you're considering? (Considering as distinct from planning.)
Another idea I've been playing with is the corruptor (or venalisk or anything really) having the ability to attach to an enemy air unit in order to execute some sort of ability... a channeled debuff most likely but possibly anything... inspired by how much the corruptor looks like a sentinel from the matrix, so the idea is it's 'hooking on' and doing damage that way. It would be tough to balance a unit whose primary attack was done this way but it might be a more interesting way of doing the 'corruption' ability of the current corrupter, without running into the imbalance of the original corrupter from alpha SC2.
Are you guys considering implementing the animation from the HotS campaign mission where you control the Hyperion as the animation for behemoth reactor/warp drive?
And sorry if I'm barraging you guys with 'backseat designer' questions. I know a lot of what I have to say will conflict with what you already have in mind for the mod. I already sit around thinking about ways 'official' SC2 could be made better and this project is far and away closest to what I want to see happen. I'll never have the motivation or skill to design my own version of SC2 so expect to see me throwing a lot of my ideas at you guys because then at least someone might find a use for them.
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Not a problem!
The Sentinel mechanic it is really cool, it has some issues though. SC units are generally several things.
1. They scale with micro (abilities are snappy, channel abilities are limited with the exception of energy based units) There is limited micro potential for a spaceface hugger.
2. They have to be in theme. The Sentinel idea is really flavorful and Zergy. 10/10.
3. The unit needs to be simple (dedicated Spellcasters and Infestors can be more complex as Standalone has correctly pointed out. However, the issue with the Sentinal and, Infultrator, is that they are heavily context dependent to function (Hugging a ship, being near an enemy base, or is just overly complicated without doing special things.[Wesp].
Battlecruisers use that animation 
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On May 19 2013 13:36 Nyvis wrote:
Stupid idea ahead : Add the corruptor as a roach morph :D
They look similar (plating, armored), spew a projectile...
But it's probably dumb game design wise. :<
Lol. I could see that
Also to answer the question; the justification for the hydra turning into Swarm Host can be seen in head structure and heavy front claws. Additionally, Hydras and Locusts share the same synergy with creep.
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1. They scale with micro (abilities are snappy, channel abilities are limited with the exception of energy based units) There is limited micro potential for a spaceface hugger.
I disagree. If you have, say, 10 small air face huggers and want to hug the face of their 10 spaceships, you need 10 precise clicks, one on every unit. It's not BW type spellcasting, but it's already quite good micro wise.
I think this could replace the venalisk and the problems it creates (destroys colossus even better than corruptors, etc). Give the venalisk a less potent attack (smaller range, no special ability), but add this special ability making it attach to an enemy flying unit, neutralizing it but still being attackable. Could be really fun with burrowed venalisks jumping on ship's faces.
Also, did you read my post above offering to steamline morphs, roaches and hydras ?
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On May 21 2013 00:36 Nyvis wrote:Show nested quote +1. They scale with micro (abilities are snappy, channel abilities are limited with the exception of energy based units) There is limited micro potential for a spaceface hugger. I disagree. If you have, say, 10 small air face huggers and want to hug the face of their 10 spaceships, you need 10 precise clicks, one on every unit. It's not BW type spellcasting, but it's already quite good micro wise. I think this could replace the venalisk and the problems it creates (destroys colossus even better than corruptors, etc). Give the venalisk a less potent attack (smaller range, no special ability), but add this special ability making it attach to an enemy flying unit, neutralizing it but still being attackable. Could be really fun with burrowed venalisks jumping on ship's faces. Also, did you read my post above offering to steamline morphs, roaches and hydras ?
I think you operating under the fallacy that "more clicks" = "good micro". While we do like to have high micro potential in our abilities, more clicks doesn't really give it a high skill cap. I think it's appropriate to mention blink here. It's a great ability because its effect is easily communicated; in large groups, it is a lot of clicks, but there is a huge gradient of success: every cast can be perfect, it can be alright, it can be bad, or it can be everything in between. With the way this ability works (or is proposed to work), it will only cast if you click on the ship. That means that, on a one for one basis, it is inherently binary: success or failure. Furthermore, ships are quite large; not exactly difficult to click. Lastly, readability is an issue: how do you know that there's a facehugger on your ship? How can you make it easy to see without clutter? So on and so forth.
On your hydralisk -> roach idea, the only problem I see is, inherently, there isn't a massive difference between the Roach and the Hydralisk. The roach is tougher, shorter range, hydra can shoot air. It isn't as much of a jump as hydra -> swarm host. Other than that (if we get the roach into a good spot) and we don't seen enough interesting opportunities from the hydra/host morph, this certainly is an ability we can take a look into.
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You're probably right for the venalisk idea.
On your hydralisk -> roach idea, the only problem I see is, inherently, there isn't a massive difference between the Roach and the Hydralisk. The roach is tougher, shorter range, hydra can shoot air. It isn't as much of a jump as hydra -> swarm host. Other than that (if we get the roach into a good spot) and we don't seen enough interesting opportunities from the hydra/host morph, this certainly is an ability we can take a look into.
Was more thinking about the other idea (hydra -> infest, roach -> SW, with also a specialist potential for both hydra and roach).
This post :
Thinking of that that way, maybe we could have roaches being a bit less specialized, but sacrifice/quick reaction units : quicker, a bit more toughness, but a lot less range, meaning that they would be less useful in direct engagements (range means only one rank would fire), but usable as throwable, spammable, quickly produceable units, where the hydra would be usable as a main army component : less life, a lot more damage and range, a bit more costly in gas and slower (and maybe slower to produce). Should be really time effective and good without upgrade, but fall back quickly. This should really avoid being the current sc2 roach, and be butchered by AoE nearly as much as hydras (it's armored, should be two-shot killed by tanks too, and non-ligh specialized colossus). Should not be a problem in ZvZ either since in small numbers, zerglings would win, and in large numbers, hydras would be clearly more powerful.
And the interesting part in the above problem : both would evolve in a specialist : swarm host for the roach (implements the "throwable" mechanic with the locusts), and infestor for the hydra (good support unit in large engagements). Both would be unlocked by the same building (one for the hydra/roach, one for the infestor/locust), but would need to produce the previous unit.
There should also be one upgrade for the roach and one for the hydra to put them into and upgraded specialist role in the late game. I like the idea of extra attack speed for hydras as a defensive unit, and maybe a burrow toughness+speed for the roach).
This gives several options to the zerg :
- use throwable roaches to stabilize, and use the leftovers for specialists, either by making swarm host and a highly dedicated and powerful army, or burrowroaches as a pressure and harass unit to strike back (imagine, your opponent go for an early timing, you defend with roaches, throwing them away, then with the leftover, you counterattack as soon as you on the way lair is finished, and use burrow to get back at him).
- use powerful hydra army to strike/be on equal foot, then upgrade the exact quantity you need to infestors to complement your army.
- use roach-hydra mix as a powerful army for early pressure, with a possibility of transition if you want.
The possibility for them to be useful early, but have transitions (multiple ones) late sounds good to me.
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yeah I can see where it would be a problem attached to the primary AtA unit for zerg... but what if you were to reintroduce the corrupter as a separate, specialist unit? It could conflict with the viper, but it could also not, depends on how you do it. If the whole goal of the corrupter was to make contact with the target it would almost be like scourge, but with some sort of effect that plays out over time instead of instant massive damage. "Some sort of effect" is of course some magical e-sports-friendly effect I haven't thought of yet, haha.
Edit: Actually one idea I had is that a unit "infected" by the corrupter could act somewhat like irradiate, causing damage to nearby friendly units without reducing any of its other functions. Terran stole dark swarm (pdd) from us so why not?
Speaking of the viper, my big gripe with the HotS viper (despite all the good it does for the game) is that abduct is kinda bullshit. Know what I mean? Like, it's the definition of a binary ability - either a high templar or ghost takes it out before it gets in range, or it almost auto-kills high value units and makes high tech armies vs viper compositions a numbers game where you pray you get just enough colossus or tank shots off to make the difference. Have you guys put any thought into this? My simple solution is to make abduct cost the full 200 energy of the viper, but also make the viper able to siphon health off units for energy (good candidates are obviously limited but it allows flexibility.) I'm hoping this would create more tension between the moment-to-moment usefulness of blinding cloud and the 'free kill' of abduct, but I'm not great with the numbers. Maybe it's overkill. all I know is abduct is really fucking frustrating to watch right now, and this is coming from a zerg player.
I think I remember reading that this mod at some point had the swarm host evolving from the roach. What's the reason you guys scrapped that idea?
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@doc daneeka
I actually think most good game abilities are "bullshit". Dark Swarm can't be 'undone' by anything. Your Defilers got Irradiated? Tough shit. et cetera. It forces players to 'do' things instead of merely respond. If abduct will always kill your high priority targets, or at least force you to waste HT energy, that's good. And you better be doing whatever you can to negate that advantage, with your own BS abilities, whether it be DT harass or w/e.
I'd much rather play a game where everything is impactful than one where everything has had its balls cut off, to speak figuratively.
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On May 21 2013 16:37 Fishgle wrote:
@doc daneeka
I actually think most good game abilities are "bullshit". Dark Swarm can't be 'undone' by anything. Your Defilers got Irradiated? Tough shit. et cetera. It forces players to 'do' things instead of merely respond. If abduct will always kill your high priority targets, or at least force you to waste HT energy, that's good. And you better be doing whatever you can to negate that advantage, with your own BS abilities, whether it be DT harass or w/e.
I'd much rather play a game where everything is impactful than one where everything has had its balls cut off, to speak figuratively.
I disagree. Dark swarm = You can respond to it by moving your units back.
Irradiate = Split up your units to minimize damage intaken.
When you make an ability skill-based both in terms of how you use it and how the opponent reacts to it you can actually make it a lot stronger (from a balance perspective) and a lot more exciting to watch than if the opponent can't react to it after it has been casted. This creates uncertainity as the outcome of the battle is to a higher degree decided by the unit contorl of both players (rather than whether one of the players can just feedback, snipe or abduct click the opponents units).
If you try to promote unit based counters through the "who is first" concept (snipe vs feedback, feedback vs abduct) then you make unit control very difficult to follow from the casual spectators as the battle will be over so quickly, and since most people prefer longer battles that are more back and fourth, I think that concept should be removed from the game.
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Not every ability in the game have to require 400 AP to use and to react to. Abduct is in no way comparable to snipe, because abducting to many units can go very wrong, and abduct does have an animation. I believe you can't abduct multiple units at a time with one viper, meaning that you have to commit and risk them to do multiple abducts.
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On May 21 2013 16:37 Fishgle wrote:
@doc daneeka
I actually think most good game abilities are "bullshit". Dark Swarm can't be 'undone' by anything. Your Defilers got Irradiated? Tough shit. et cetera. It forces players to 'do' things instead of merely respond. If abduct will always kill your high priority targets, or at least force you to waste HT energy, that's good. And you better be doing whatever you can to negate that advantage, with your own BS abilities, whether it be DT harass or w/e.
I'd much rather play a game where everything is impactful than one where everything has had its balls cut off, to speak figuratively.
I agree to some extent, and like I very briefly mentioned, I think HotS is quite a bit better than WoL because of the viper (among other things)... but on the other hand, even though dark swarm and irradiate couldn't be "undone", they could be reacted to. You could back up from a dark swarm or remove an irradiated unit from other units to avoid the full damage potential of irradiate, and irradiated ultralisks were sometimes even more dangerous than just plain old ultralisks. There was time to respond. (edit: looks like Hider said exactly this before me, lol). Once vipers come out, colossi are basically marked for death and the resupply on them is far too weak to seriously consider including them in your composition after that. It's pretty bad for immortals too (maybe not relevant to OG though) and it guarantees carriers will never find a place in the match-up. Maybe not as much the case with battlecruisers because air terran is so unbelievably powerful once T gets to that point (thanks to seeker missile mainly). I guess from what I've seen it causes the most damage in ZvP. Maybe a dev can comment on how they've seen it affect stuff like the OG mothership, etc..
This is all mostly based on what I've been seeing since HotS's release... I don't think I've seen a viper in any of the OG games I've managed to track down. It's a better state to be in than WoL ever was so it's not the end of the world but I still feel like people should be keeping their eyes on abduct every bit as much as they're suspicious of stuff like helbats (and I'd say void rays but that unit is obviously totally different in this mod.)
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Irradiate, Dark Swarm have definite effects with limited counterplay. I think the Viper's pull ability is pretty similar. I see big units occasionally escape in HoTs, and in OG there are even more counter-measures. Isolation Pulse, Guardian Shield, Feedback, and Hallucination are all options a Protoss has against Vipers spellwise. They also have 7 Range Stalkers which can make Pulling a risky proposition. Zerg has Venalisks, Fungal, NP, Abduct, and massable Hydras. Terran has more supply efficient mech units which makes Abduct much less powerful as well as EMP, Snipe, Seeker and the 9 range Warhound/Viking. (It costs 225 energy to Pul 3 Warhounds vs 75 Energy to pull 1 Thor.)
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Fun Fact: Unit Tester
A warhound barely beats a stalker 1 on 1.
Warhounds OP! 
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On May 24 2013 19:37 Doominator10 wrote:Fun Fact: Unit Tester A warhound barely beats a stalker 1 on 1. Warhounds OP!
*Sees opponents going mech*
*Builds stalkers*
Seems legit.
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EPT
