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Roaches need a little bit more design balance in the direction of mass and more micro instead of strength and less micro.
The strength should come through the mass and micro. Because of the roach is a little bit overpowered and require less micro, mass roach is/was a possible strategy.
Alright, I think I see why we are speaking past each other. There is no such thing as "design balance". While the two do have intrinsic connections, they are not prevalent and not the focus of the mod. Our goal is to create a more well-designed game. While balance is important (a game cannot be blatantly imbalanced and fun), design is paramount (a perfectly balanced game can be incredibly boring. See: Tic-Tac-Toe).
The roach, as implemented in Heart of the Swarm, feels like a protoss unit. A 2 supply, 125 HP unit at T 1.5 is not zerg-y. However, the identity of the unit is a large, bulky, burrowing menace. We can't have too many roaches or it feels wrong, even if playing as Zerg. Making the roach more massable and more micro intensive accomplishes the same thing that the hatch-tech hydra accomplishes if it was given 20 more HP and a DPS nerf. The hydralisk is the best unit that we've found to take on the role (as its identity already establishes it as a backbone Z unit). If we did that to the roach, it would shatter the unit's identity, which is best fulfilled for the zerg as a T2 unit (and more emphasis on its burrow prowess, to avoid to much overlap with the ultralisk).
+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 14:27 Doominator10 wrote:Wait, so you mean I don't HAVE to get grooved spines against stargate play early on if I'm being aggressive :0 Wtf have I been doing with my life. 0_o Yes, indeed 
Hydra Dmg and Protoss:
Personally, I think protoss are still underestimating sentries with time-warp and latent thermal surge (since collosus already have range  ) and will eventually learn effective means of dealing with mass hydra mid-mid lategame. Does the team have any notions regarding this concern? Wait out the metagame? Look to adjust splash? Look to adjust hydra values? Etc?
I can say that this problem has been noted. Since, on our team, we do not have the skill or capability to really push the mod's limits, it would be best to wait for the metagame to settle down a little bit more. From what I have tested, though, stalker/zealot/templar is incredibly effective, especially with good storms. Hydralisks simply melt, and it is not really viable. If you add sentries into the mix, you'll need to bump up to hive and run ultralisks and maybe swarm hosts, but hyralisks will really have a hard time engaging head-on.
The larger issue is actually venelisks: they pick off colossi incredibly effectively. Even if they die, they can be produced far quicker than colossi, and colossi are currently not the most effective choice. We still have very high hopes for the venelisks, and against storm they simply melt, but if it turns out to be something that simply refuses to let colossus exist, we'll have to give it the boot. If it comes to that, hydralisks will again melt to colossi/zealot balls, as they rightfully should. We'll wait to see how this plays out over the next few weeks.
Deep Warren and Swarm Hosts as an Evolution:
Back to roaches, I really liked it that swarm hosts evolved from roaches with the deep warren morph. It really seemed to fit the zerg theme of evolution (a base unit turning into a specialist strain.... unless roaches are no longer a base unit but rather a specialist. Then there'd be a specialist evolving into another specialist. A bad thing? Possibly). I'm curious as to the thought process that went into reverting the change to have them seperated.
This was actually a very difficult change for me, personally (as a faithful Zerg player since late 2006). I loved the evolution aspect that we were adding back into the game (this, I believe, was around the same patch that corruptors also came from mutalisks). As you mentioned, though, a specialist coming from another specialist was awkward. Furthermore, having a T2 unit evolve into another T2 unit (without any other prerequisites) was kind of strange and just was a rush to deep warren. One idea we've been tossing around internally is the evolution of Hydralisk into Swarm Host, but while this might feel quite zerg-y, it presents its own set of problems (even without considering more people calling us BW-sympathizers and lurker-lovers  ). Just keep in mind its something we have our eyes on.
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Alright, I think I see why we are speaking past each other. There is no such thing as "design balance". While the two do have intrinsic connections, they are not prevalent and not the focus of the mod. Our goal is to create a more well-designed game. While balance is important (a game cannot be blatantly imbalanced and fun), design is paramount (a perfectly balanced game can be incredibly boring. See: Tic-Tac-Toe).
I don´t speak about balance. With design balance I don´t mean balancing. I have the same opinion as you. So, I agree totally.
The roach, as implemented in Heart of the Swarm, feels like a protoss unit. A 2 supply, 125 HP unit at T 1.5 is not zerg-y.
The Roach has 145 HP and make 16 damage against all. What is Zergy and what not, depends on many things.
I agree that something is wrong with the Roach, but it is not its identity.
T 1.5: In my version the Roach has 135 HP and the damage is changed to 14 (+4 vs biological) instead of 16.
Very small changes and it feels very well.
If we did that to the roach, it would shatter the unit's identity,
That is your opinion, but not a fact. With less changes to the Roach, the Roach has a wonderful identity on T 1.5. A early available Unit, which have more HP and it don't so little endure as a Zergling or Hydralisk, highlighted the race. That is one thing was missing in SC:BW. To change the Hydralisk significantly, was Blizzard's fault.
Making the roach more massable and more micro intensive accomplishes the same thing that the hatch-tech hydra accomplishes if it was given 20 more HP and a DPS nerf.
You also making the roach more micro intensive. I think, that is cool.
The Roach could get a ability to restore from his corpse for the same cost. And the corpse can be destroyed. That could be cool. ^^ The Roach should be a Roach. Roaches are annoying and come in mass.
Hydras should do more damage to armored units and less damage to the rest.
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On May 15 2013 02:56 RedGD wrote:Show nested quote +Alright, I think I see why we are speaking past each other. There is no such thing as "design balance". While the two do have intrinsic connections, they are not prevalent and not the focus of the mod. Our goal is to create a more well-designed game. While balance is important (a game cannot be blatantly imbalanced and fun), design is paramount (a perfectly balanced game can be incredibly boring. See: Tic-Tac-Toe). I don´t speak about balance. With design balance I don´t mean balancing. I have the same opinion as you. So, I agree totally. Show nested quote +The roach, as implemented in Heart of the Swarm, feels like a protoss unit. A 2 supply, 125 HP unit at T 1.5 is not zerg-y. The Roach has 145 HP and make 16 damage against all. What is Zergy and what not, depends on many things. I agree that something is wrong with the Roach, but it is not its identity. T 1.5: In my version the Roach has 135 HP and the damage is changed to 14 (+4 vs biological) instead of 16. Very small changes and it feels very well. That is your opinion, but not a fact. With less changes to the Roach, the Roach has a wonderful identity on T 1.5. A early available Unit, which have more HP and it don't so little endure as a Zergling or Hydralisk, highlighted the race. That is one thing was missing in SC:BW. To change the Hydralisk significantly, was Blizzard's fault. Show nested quote +Making the roach more massable and more micro intensive accomplishes the same thing that the hatch-tech hydra accomplishes if it was given 20 more HP and a DPS nerf. You also making the roach more micro intensive. I think, that is cool. The Roach could get a ability to restore from his corpse for the same cost. And the corpse can be destroyed. That could be cool. ^^ The Roach should be a Roach. Roaches are annoying and come in mass. Hydras should do more damage to armored units and less damage to the rest.
*Slight misinterpretation when you said design balance. It's design, Or balance. You meant design. All is well.*
"A early available Unit, which have more HP and it don't so little endure as a Zergling or Hydralisk, highlighted the race. That is one thing was missing in SC:BW. To change the Hydralisk significantly, was Blizzard's fault. "
No, an early high hp unit does not highlight the race and did not need to be changed from brood war.
Read this post
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374850
It and the other identity threads from IWS are the entire premise of how OneGoal is designing their mod. The identity of zerg as a race, is high numbers, high damage, low hp with certain exceptions in the form of specialist strains. When you think of zerg conceptually, you think of zerglings, hydras, mutas, and ultras. Those are the units most often depicted when zerg is mentioned (I actually think hydras are more common than zerglings sometime). Blizzard has strongly enforced the notion of a numberless, fragile, dangerous species. Roaches are not representative of this theme. Massable AND High hp is more closely related to protoss than zerg.
The objective is to get the gameplay to be more consistent with lore, and theme.
Protoss were supposed to be the strongest race, with more reliance on technology to bolster dwindling numbers. Instead, they are the weakest (most represented by stalkers vs roaches and marauders.) and must rely on tricks (forcefield) to stay alive until they get their uber tech out. OG protoss actually can commit to a fight against their terran or zerg counter parts with the T1 immortal, and later sentry. (Or at least, that's the design intended.)
Terran's were pretty good. (Just mech was a little off)
Zerg were supposed to be numberless, and fragile. You could EASILY kill hundreds of organisms, thousands more will take their place, with a FEW specialized strains for breaking particularly tough resistance. Roaches are not easy to kill. They are more suited to a specialized role, rather than the generalist ranged unit that they are in WoL and SC2. OG decided to emphasize their unique role of a burrowing infiltrator, and expanded on it's name "roach" by making them not only tough, but annoying to kill as well. (Extra armor and speed boost when burrowed.) A roach infestation is not hundreds of highly visible roaches in your base, but rather a few dozen hard to find, hard to kill infiltrators.
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<3 Doom
The Roach could get a ability to restore from his corpse for the same cost. And the corpse can be destroyed.
Corpses aren't StarCraft. WarCraft III did corpses (and fairly well, I think), but that was a different game. Interestingly enough, there's already an upgrade that did this in the WoL and HotS campaigns: Immortality Protocol for the Thor and the Torrasque mutation for the Ultralisk. These are both the largest ground units of each respective race. Zerg's expendability is also a lesser-emphasized theme (the ultralisk again being the exception), but the theme is present. An individual roach isn't worth spending more resources to resurrect. If you want to keep it, micro to victory or build another back at home.
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No, an early high hp unit does not highlight the race and did not need to be changed from brood war.
I have read this post and I knew the content previously.
I think it is a matter of taste. The Ultralisk has also high hp and fits to the Zerg and not only due to the fact that he is a high tech unit or a specialist.
Roaches are not representative of this theme. Massable AND High hp is more closely related to protoss than zerg.
It is obviously a matter of taste.
There is no objective reason why all Zerg units should have not much HP, unless they are specialists or need a high tech.
You can have 20 low HP units in the Zerg race and 1 high HP unit, which is massable and not a specalist or a high tech unit, this 1 unit would highlited the Zerg´s identity, without to be high tech or specialist. That is the example,why you are not completely correct, in my opinion. This 1 unit is the Roach in my opinion. The Zerg evolve and in BW such an unit was missing on T 1.5. At the beginning of Starcraft 2 Wings of Liberty everyone said so and looked forward to the Roach.
Roaches may have slightly more HP than Zerglings and Hydralisks and the Roach would fit perfectly into the race.
The problem is that Roaches have a little bit too much HP. That's why it looks more like a Protoss unit. The Zergling/Baneling/Roach trio is perfect. To make it to a specialist looks more like a Protoss unit, because Protoss has a smaller number of units, which are strong. The Zerg are not like that. Roaches in smaller numbers with a lot of HP and high costs feels Protoss like. Your Roach is like an Immortal. That isn´t Zergy. Zergy is primary mass and low costs. Doesn´t matter which tech or role.
Thanks for reading.
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Can you please explain how a mass exception highlights the rule/theme? Maybe provide examples in other games, or even real life if applicable?
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Protoss were supposed to be the strongest race, with more reliance on technology to bolster dwindling numbers. Instead, they are the weakest (most represented by stalkers vs roaches and marauders.) and must rely on tricks (forcefield) to stay alive until they get their uber tech out. OG protoss actually can commit to a fight against their terran or zerg counter parts with the T1 immortal, and later sentry. (Or at least, that's the design intended.)
Maybe because their lore CHANGED?
Protosses are now out of their homeworld, with a sizeable fraction of them formed around dark templars and shakuras, right? I think their new feel reflects that pretty well (with the strong "to the face" units being the ones remaining from aiur, like zealots, immortals and colossus).
I agree that zergs are out of place lore wise, especially because of the roach (as a newb, I love the unit, it's way too easy to use, by the way).
I don't like the idea of keeping roaches as what they are, but with a little more micro and being T2. As someone said above, their name involves numbers. Roaches are tough, yes, but also numerous. I'm fine with them being T2 since we don't really want a tanky unit for zerg in T1, but I believe they should be less efficient but 1 supply. Burrow is a fitting mechanic for them.
My proposition :
- 1 supply roaches
- burrow move with burrow research
- immune to splash damage when burrowed (or reduced, if it's too powerful), or just tougher when burrowed. A lot.
- shorter range (2 or 3), medium hp (slightly more than hydras), medium damage (slightly less than hydra).
- fast, including when burrowed
Roaches are a kind of line breakers with their higher HP, compared to hydra. But to fit this role, it's not forced to give them high HP all the time. A way to dodge the bigger threat for them (splash, as for every swarmy unit), compensated with a lot less HP and shorter range, would make them interesting and different : you can burrow to get close to your target and swarm it. But get blown out if they have a way to deal with you when closing in.
Roaches should be a way to attack and deal some damage to fortified positions by using burrow (also usable to micro them), but should not be that tough in direct engagements. Plus I like the idea of a swarm closing in on you burrowed to pop in front of your tanks/colossus. Of course, they should be a lot less cost efficient in direct engagements with short range units, since their strength is in closing in.
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Why should it be an intrinsic logic of the zerg identity that all units have to be fragile.
Characteristics of zerg:
1. They have gained control over their evolutionprocess and therefore can mutate in whatever
is most useful in an particular situation.
2. All the tools they use, are byproducts of their own body.
So if an situation, like fighting against thanks or collosy, demands an high hp unit like the roach
why would they not develop/evolve into it?
And from a gameplayperspectiv:
I was so happy as blizzard introduced the roach. It gave the zerg race more diversification.
I still can play ling,baeling muta, if i want to. But if the enemy all ins me with an high amoured,
high splash damage force i can adapt and build finally a thanking units which reflects the damage.
Why should all zerg units, with the exception of the ultra , be fragile?
And don't say because of the queens larva inject.You can balance that supply-wise.
If the enemy all ins with thanks,marines,marauders or stalker,immortals,ms-cores than zerglings, baelings and hydras melt away.Sure i can split up my army, which i and most other zergs do,but if the enemy is equal skilled than you lose with this comp. If the enemy is 2 or 3 leagues under you than you can outmicro nearly every unitcomposition of him but that can't be your point. What kills you, are all the special abilities like stim, siege, blink,hardenshield,timewarp , guardianshield.
They work as booster, they boost enemy attackspeed , damage , health .. . Your hydras have nothing like that.
They can burrow and than die but that's it.
Sure marines are also weak against splash damage but they cost only 50 mins and that's it.
Your hydralisks are way 2 expensive for what they can do. Even or even more as an T2 unit you should give
them at least 1 interesting ability.
On May 12 2013 12:35 topsecret221 wrote:c) What do Zealots have? Stalkers don't get blink until midgame. Stim isn't the most interesting ability to use because of how insignificant the effect is in small numbers. What do Roaches have? High regeneration is all well and good, but not exactly stunning, and a 2 supply unit at hatch tech is not a swarm. Digression: + Show Spoiler +Zerg shouldn't consistently have the same number of units as Terran and Protoss; they should be 1.5:1 ratio against Terran and 2:1 against protoss (on average). Even in these numbers, a Zerg should barely pull through, because their advantage is ENORMOUS NUMBERS. That is the swarm. Don't forget, all Zerg ground still has the ability to burrow (and it IS T1 and only 50/50, easily attainable in the early game).
The equivalent to an zealot is 2 zerglings or 1 marine gameplay wise.
The equivalent to an hydra in your game is an stalker or an marauder and both have abilities
The main problem with the roach (as i see it)
The main problem with the roach is not that is op in any form, because it isn't, like more than two years of gamedata show (winrates are pretty even).If there is an problem than that roaches are useless if the enemy hardcounters it with going air only. Than your x0 supply of roaches is useless and you can only send them into the enemy base to counterattack and free up supply for anti air units. This is a very vulnerable situation for an zerg player to be in.And it happens nearly everytime when your own roachcount gets to high, so that you let the enemy no choice , than hardcountering it.
So what the roach as an t1 unit really needs is the ability to mutate into an anti air unit. So if you see that the enemy is building air only you can recycle your roaches by morphing them into anti air. That's adaptive and that's what zerg is.
The perfect unit for that would be the swarmhost with an upgrade that allows him catapulting baelings up in the air out of his back.As i said before.
So: Roach mutates into swarmhost.
Swarmhost can upgrade/mutate into baeling-catapult and loses therefore the ability to produce locusts
How swarmhost could mutate into antiair without beeing op:
1.If you are afraid that the baelings would deal to much damage against air, than they could automatically explode at the highest point of there travelway and leave behind an acidcloud which floats x seconds up in the air, similar to an aironly psy-storm for zerg. It could stay longer than an psy-storm does and make therefore less damage . So the groundunits could move save under the acidclouds.
2.Or you upgrade the swarmhost into something like the carrier(protoss). swarmhost could produce for the cost of mins and gas , scourge which life in the shell of the swarmhost, and could be send against airunits to attack them. And if the swarmhost dies than all his scourge die too.
topsecret your the zerg-one or ?
I really don't know why you let pass hydra-t1 in qualitycontroll.
Lets face it hydras are good as anti air but they are totally lame/boring as an main unit.
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So what the roach as an t1 unit really needs is the ability to mutate into an anti air unit. So if you see that the enemy is building air only you can recycle your roaches by morphing them into anti air. That's adaptive and that's what zerg is.
Yeah, because it's not versatile enough as it is. >_<
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On May 15 2013 23:53 Nyvis wrote:Show nested quote +So what the roach as an t1 unit really needs is the ability to mutate into an anti air unit. So if you see that the enemy is building air only you can recycle your roaches by morphing them into anti air. That's adaptive and that's what zerg is. Yeah, because it's not versatile enough as it is. >_<
There is no such thing as versatile enough , could always be more fun aslong as it is not op and still fun 2play against and not only fun 2play with it.That means there must be some proper mechanic to counter it.
For exampe is photon-overcharge only fun if you are protoss, not as terran or zerg which try to all in the protoss in the early game, because the nexus has so much hp that you cant really stop the photon overcharge by killing the objekt which causes it.So its an "you can take 3 bases without preasure card" for protoss. And even some protoss may find it lame.
I thougth that since you made immortal t1,5 and buffed the range of the stalker, that there is no need for pushdelay mechanics like forcefields or photon overcharge. I cant understand why its still in the game, especially with the one mscore per nexus softcap.
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I really like the T-1 hydra and T-2 roach. It feels like it fits the lore of the units and should make for better games.
However something that I don't think feels quite as good with the current set up is the roach and swarmhost both coming from the roach warren. I feel like this makes it so that roaches aren't as likely to be used, since you can get the very potent swarmhost at the same time as the roach.
I personally would like to see the swarmhost require burrow to be researched before you can build them.
This could give time for roaches before the shift to swarmhosts.
This would ensure that the roach would have its potent burrowing abilities when swarmhosts do come out, so it would still be very useful.
This shouldn't slow down rushing to swarmhosts too much, since burrow is at hatch tech now.
I appreciate this idea is probably one you've already looked at and discarded but I figured it was worth mentioning.
Thanks for all the hard work you guys do on this mod and for the streams, which I've really enjoyed watching!
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On May 15 2013 23:44 StandAloneComplex wrote:
Why should it be an intrinsic logic of the zerg identity that all units have to be fragile.
Because that is what the numbers have indicated for the last 15 years. It is not only essential to Zerg identity, but it is an important part of making the other races feel distinct. Let me explain.
Characteristics of zerg:
1. They have gained control over their evolution process and therefore can mutate in whatever
is most useful in an particular situation.
2. All the tools they use, are byproducts of their own body.
So if an situation, like fighting against thanks or collosy, demands an high hp unit like the roach
why would they not develop/evolve into it?
1. Yes, but you are looking at this from a zerg-player perspective. What if the environment favored them being able to hold or pressure ground from 13 range with a ground unit (You suggested something like that), or demanded that they be able to morph powerful Leviathans that can shoot ground and air from Larva? If we implement your load a baneling into a swarm host idea, if we could get it to work as you wanted it to (There are no true "skill shots" in SC2.) It would risk overlapping with the Siege Tank, one of Starcrafts most distinct, iconic units. You ask a Riot dev what is the most iconic unit for each race and for terran it will be the Tank. In fact, the Thor lost is massive aoe artillery ability back in the alpha because it was too similar to the unit. If you made the Leviathan balanced around Tier 3 and put it into the game, it would make the Battlecruiser and Carrier less distinct. If you design something that is too similar to its racial counterparts, then you have a problem. The way the races were made distinct in SC:BW was differences in HP, damage, cost, and supply. A HotS roach for all intents and purposes has effectively as much HP as a HotS Zealot, and has 90% of a HotS Stalker's HP. It makes the entirety of SC2 Protoss feel weak in comparison. The 1.5 Roach was part of the reason why Force Field was so important, due to Zerg's ability to frontload its production and saturate the map with 24+ 145 HP roaches. It constricted map design and the design of other races. By having a 1.5 unit that can die more easily but has higher potential damage, you get a more stable early game. If Zerg wants to break a position before lair, they have banelings. If you want something else, evolve and get a Lair.
And from a gameplayperspectiv:
I was so happy as blizzard introduced the roach. It gave the zerg race more diversification.
I still can play ling,baeling muta, if i want to. But if the enemy all ins me with an high amoured,
high splash damage force i can adapt and build finally a thanking units which reflects the damage.
Why should all zerg units, with the exception of the ultra , be fragile?
And don't say because of the queens larva inject.You can balance that supply-wise.
I am also happy that they gave us the Roach, its a neat unit. It was really sad that it turned out the way it did. The Roach versions in the alpha had a number of cool interactions. None of them really belonged at 1.5, so rather than moving it to a tier where they could preserve it, they made it a marauder/ground-ground hydra with burrow.
Gameplay wise, less HP means you can make them cost less supply, which makes your end-game army larger, which makes your army feel "swarmier," which is the big part of Zerg identity that you missed. The point is the norm should be fragile, so when beefy Zerg units hit the field, they feel that much more special, and the other races feel more distinct. Imagine if we scaled down the Ultra to fit in Tier 1 or 2, wouldn't that feel crappy? It would have to have less HP, do less damage ect. Don't you find it sad that the Roach has less HP regen on average than the Mutalisk? Which doesn't even mutate into anything? The point is this: If we make the Roach show up later, we can really amp up what makes it feel different from the hydra, and at the same time, we can give something to Zerg that scales better with skill. Roach micro doesn't reflect skill nearly as well as stim or blink, we want to fix that, and frankly, I think what we have is really solid.
Also, I find it troubling that you would rather change the fundimental nature of Zerg macro before a simple tech swap. Why do you like the 1.5 Roach that much? Is it Neophillia?
If the enemy all ins with thanks,marines,marauders or stalker,immortals,ms-cores than zerglings, baelings and hydras melt away.Sure i can split up my army, which i and most other zergs do,but if the enemy is equal skilled than you lose with this comp. If the enemy is 2 or 3 leagues under you than you can outmicro nearly every unitcomposition of him but that can't be your point. What kills you, are all the special abilities like stim, siege, blink,hardenshield,timewarp , guardianshield.
They work as booster, they boost enemy attackspeed , damage , health .. . Your hydras have nothing like that.
They can burrow and than die but that's it.
This doesn't strike me as serious analysis. All of our testing shows that if Zerg gets a good concave with hydras and/or lings, they win. They just have so much damage per supply that it overwhelms anything but stim bio and Toss supported by AoE. Hydras have been changed so they can micro like marines, on creep, they are as fast as stimmed bio and shoot as stimmed bio. Not saying this is perfect. But we have fourty something master and GM testing that directly contradicts what you say. I would invite you to give me OG replays that support what you are saying. We feel like we have a working system here, the impetus is on you to convince us that it isn't working.
Sure marines are also weak against splash damage but they cost only 50 mins and that's it.
Your hydralisks are way 2 expensive for what they can do. Even or even more as an T2 unit you should give
them at least 1 interesting ability.
Marines are one of the most powerful and iconic units in the game, (along with tanks, zerglings, hydras, Zealots, and Carriers)
We are open to giving Hydras a new ability. Do you have any ideas? It has to be simple and streamlined.
On May 12 2013 12:35 topsecret221 wrote:c) What do Zealots have? Stalkers don't get blink until midgame. Stim isn't the most interesting ability to use because of how insignificant the effect is in small numbers. What do Roaches have? High regeneration is all well and good, but not exactly stunning, and a 2 supply unit at hatch tech is not a swarm. Digression: + Show Spoiler +Zerg shouldn't consistently have the same number of units as Terran and Protoss; they should be 1.5:1 ratio against Terran and 2:1 against protoss (on average). Even in these numbers, a Zerg should barely pull through, because their advantage is ENORMOUS NUMBERS. That is the swarm. Don't forget, all Zerg ground still has the ability to burrow (and it IS T1 and only 50/50, easily attainable in the early game).
The equivalent to an zealot is 2 zerglings or 1 marine gameplay wise.
The equivalent to an hydra in your game is an stalker or an marauder and both have abilities
This is the wrong way to look at it.
On a unit for unit basis 2 lings=1 Zealot
Cost for cost and supply for supply 4 lings=1 Zealot. This is a big difference.
This is the underlying relationship between Z and P. The Protoss Zealot gets to have 150/160 HP vs the lings 35 HP. But the sheer numbers of lings you are allowed as a zerg player give you wayyy more damage and almost as much total HP (140 HP from 4 lings vs 150/160 of the Zealot). The trick is making all of that damage count. Which is why positioning is so important. This is why the Hydra is a better fit for a 1.5 unit than the Roach. The 1 supply hydra has 80 HP meaning a little less than half of a Dragoon's total HP, that said, it costs 1 supply, meaning that for every Dragoon, you get 2 Hydras. In OG, for every Stalker, you can have 2 Hydras, for every Immortal, you can have 3. For the Roach to fufill its awesome identity, it has to cost 2 supply and have ton of HP, making both Zerg and Protoss early game more homogeneous
The main problem with the roach (as i see it)
The main problem with the roach is not that is op in any form, because it isn't, like more than two years of gamedata show (winrates are pretty even).If there is an problem than that roaches are useless if the enemy hardcounters it with going air only. Than your x0 supply of roaches is useless and you can only send them into the enemy base to counterattack and free up supply for anti air units. This is a very vulnerable situation for an zerg player to be in.And it happens nearly everytime when your own roachcount gets to high, so that you let the enemy no choice , than hardcountering it.
So what the roach as an t1 unit really needs is the ability to mutate into an anti air unit. So if you see that the enemy is building air only you can recycle your roaches by morphing them into anti air. That's adaptive and that's what zerg is.
The perfect unit for that would be the swarmhost with an upgrade that allows him catapulting baelings up in the air out of his back.As i said before.
So: Roach mutates into swarmhost.
Swarmhost can upgrade/mutate into baeling-catapult and loses therefore the ability to produce locusts
How swarmhost could mutate into antiair without beeing op:
1.If you are afraid that the baelings would deal to much damage against air, than they could automatically explode at the highest point of there travelway and leave behind an acidcloud which floats x seconds up in the air, similar to an aironly psy-storm for zerg. It could stay longer than an psy-storm does and make therefore less damage . So the groundunits could move save under the acidclouds.
2.Or you upgrade the swarmhost into something like the carrier(protoss). swarmhost could produce for the cost of mins and gas , scourge which life in the shell of the swarmhost, and could be send against airunits to attack them. And if the swarmhost dies than all his scourge die too.
I just want to point out that you are advocating for an evolution for an evolution that requires another unit and a skillshot to perform siege range AoE damage instead of doing what has been done for 15 years and just giving the race a simple unit that shoots up. I think the complex moving parts of a moba like Dota 2 and League of Legends better suit this kind of design. (This isn't meant as an insult, it's just a very different kind of design where the compexity of interactions is focused in fewer, more complex units rather than across a bunch of simple and streamlined units that do one or two things really well.)
I really don't know why you let pass hydra-t1 in qualitycontroll.
Lets face it hydras are good as anti air but they are totally lame/boring as an main unit.
We literally have pages of Pro tier 1.5 hydra players going apeshit over the idea of playing with a 1 supply, 1.5 Hydra and think its the coolest thing since sliced bread. Its you and two other posters who are objecting to this.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374850
http://pt.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11c06v/zerg_supply_and_cost_vs_p_and_t/
I guess you can go and say it comes down to taste. If that is the case, then it is your preference for the Roach (and it seems to be preference, because you have yet to give us any real reason why the roach provides more interesting gameplay than a Stutter stepping hydra.) If it really is that simple, then it comes down to the 80 ish people who say its awesome, vs the 5 or so "Pro-Roach" roach crowd. It seems that "quality control" is working just fine to me.
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On May 16 2013 01:13 deadinseconds wrote:
I really like the T-1 hydra and T-2 roach. It feels like it fits the lore of the units and should make for better games.
However something that I don't think feels quite as good with the current set up is the roach and swarmhost both coming from the roach warren. I feel like this makes it so that roaches aren't as likely to be used, since you can get the very potent swarmhost at the same time as the roach.
I personally would like to see the swarmhost require burrow to be researched before you can build them.
This could give time for roaches before the shift to swarmhosts.
This would ensure that the roach would have its potent burrowing abilities when swarmhosts do come out, so it would still be very useful.
This shouldn't slow down rushing to swarmhosts too much, since burrow is at hatch tech now.
I appreciate this idea is probably one you've already looked at and discarded but I figured it was worth mentioning.
Thanks for all the hard work you guys do on this mod and for the streams, which I've really enjoyed watching!
One thing we've somewhat struggled with is the position of the swarm host in the tech tree. It has bounced between unlocking at Infestation pit, to a morph from the roach (both at T2), to it's current iteration (having splash damage for a large amount of time prior). As I've mentioned earlier, internally we've tossed about the idea of the SH morphing from hydras (after a research/building morph). This accomplishes both pushing the SH off the path to Hive (which is why it's at the roach warren), and giving Zerg another morph unit that is significantly different from others. Of course, we aren't yet sold in the idea, and we'd get flak from SC2 loyalists for being lurker lovers, but that's a separate problem.
The problem with being unlocked at burrow+roach warren is kind of strange. Firstly, roaches really shine with burrow research, so chances are that once you get the RW, burrow with be ready to go anyways. Secondly, requiring a tech to build a unit rather than a building is somewhat difficult to read. The only thing I can think of that did this is lurker tech back in BW, but that was a specific research and didn't require a building as well. Just remember that we aren't quite done with the Swarm Host
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On May 16 2013 01:53 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
1. Yes, but you are looking at this from a zerg-player perspective. What if the environment favored them being able to hold or pressure ground from 13 range with a ground unit (You suggested something like that), or demanded that they be able to morph powerful Leviathans that can shoot ground and air from Larva? If we implement your load a baneling into a swarm host idea, if we could get it to work as you wanted it to (There are no true "skill shots" in SC2.) It would risk overlapping with the Siege Tank
I totally suggest something like that because it would be awesome.
As i told you, if you dont like the skillshoot thing than:
On May 15 2013 23:44 StandAloneComplex wrote:
How swarmhost could mutate into antiair without beeing op:
1.If you are afraid that the baelings would deal to much damage against air, than they could automatically explode at the highest point of there travelway and leave behind an acidcloud which floats x seconds up in the air, similar to an aironly psy-storm for zerg. It could stay longer than an psy-storm does and make therefore less damage . So the groundunits could move save under the acidclouds.
2.Or you upgrade the swarmhost into something like the carrier(protoss). swarmhost could produce for the cost of mins and gas , scourge which life in the shell of the swarmhost, and could be send against airunits to attack them. And if the swarmhost dies than all his scourge die too.
There are already skill shoots in the game.
-What is an psy-storm other than an aoe-based skillshoot.
-To detonate burrowed baelings just in the right moment when enemy zerglings running over it, is very skillshoot like.
-The new fungal-growth projectile is an skillshoot.
Non of these examples have autotargeting, by just simply clicking on the enemy.
Just like the one time as i asked for some base-corruptionmechanic for zerg (sneaking into enemy base and infesting and controlling enemy buildings)An mechanic which many command and conquer games have successfully included. And you said it would be too "dota-like".
I have the feeling that "too dota like" is just an synonym for :
1.
I don't like this idea, because that's not the way i see zerg in my mind and the way i see zerg in my mind is the only right on. All units , except the ultralisks have to be fragile just because it was the case in sc1 . And that's the one thing i liked in sc bw the most about zerg, so i put it over all the other zerg characteristics like mutation or infestation and all the other components which give the race an identity and from know on an unit which is not fragile is simply not zerg!
Another synonym you often like too use is:
"This unitidea is way too complex" aka. "Its not simple and streamlined enough" <=> "too dota like" <=> 1.
Is the infestor an streamlined unit with clear identity? It can burrow-move , produce infested terrans, shoot an fungal growth projectile and mind control the enemy
Is the ghost an streamlined unit with clear identity?: It can cloak , nuke, emp , snipe ,all abilitys, 4 in one unit.
As i asked for the wesp, you said its " to complex" .
Lets look at it :
The zergling has an melee attack, can be upgraded to run faster and to attack faster it also can morph into the bealing
The wesp has an melee attack against air , can be upgraded to collect mins (not like automining drones but manually) , it also can morph into the scourge.
Don't convert the scourge and the wesp in one unit . Zergling and baeling are also two separate units.
So why is the wesp exactly more complicated than the zergling. Just because it gets it ability out of building lair and hive instead of upgrading them in an separate building That should make it less complex not more , because lair and hive you get anyway. And that it can not attack until you get lair is really not that complex. Its just
getting an ability which zergling has already since birth.
I mean this two units(zergling and wesp) are pretty much mirrors of each other with slide alterations and you say the wesp is too "dota like". Its not. Its just an more interesting versio nof the ventralisk . Its the ventralisk with some additional ability .But just as many ability as the zergling has . Not as many as ghost or infestor have.
On May 16 2013 01:53 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
If it really is that simple, then it comes down to the 80 ish people who say its awesome, vs the 5 or so "Pro-Roach" roach crowd. It seems that "quality control" is working just fine to me.
0.94 to 0.06 is this valid ?
Just because X people on your site say that they like the t1 hydra better than the t1 roach , it really doesn't mean that the whole zerg playerbase is split 0.94 to 0.06 .That's not an valid sample statisticwise. I really don't know how the whole playerbase would decide if you would ask them on the official zerg forum.It could go your way i don't denial that, but im certainly not so sure than you are.
I really get that you have an very distinct idea of what zerg should be and even if i don't share it, i kind of like that. Im really curious where your vision leads you and i mean that in an non-sarcastic way. Plz don't take this post as an offence . I wish you best luck.
P.s: If you demand hydra as T1, than please give it at least some interesting ability's. You asked for ideas but i can't help you , my ideas are all "too dota-like".
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Can you please explain how a mass exception highlights the rule/theme? Maybe provide examples in other games, or even real life if applicable?
Yes. For example, if the Zerg has only low HP units, because it is a part of its identity. One high HP unit is okay. Maybe a second. Depends on the total number of units. So the race is mainly fragile, but there are some units with a little bit more hp as classic Zerg units, which enables other strategies, but in a zergy massable style. This makes the race more varied and more fun. At the moment Hydralisks come in small numbers and Roaches in high numbers. You switch that with one difference. You will have less Roaches as Hydras in the current version by Blizzard. In the sum you will see less units. Less units = less Zergy.
If you have only fragile units, it will be boring. The same goes for Protoss. If you have only high HP units, it will be boring. For example Sentry and HT are fragile. They are also caster units, but that is the design "balance". If one unit has one good property, other properties have to be worse.
So. You can have many Roaches with a little bit less HP and it will be massable and a high HP unit in relationship to the other Zerg units, with which you can do things, which Zerglings and Hydras can´t do. More variety, more zergy, more fun.
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@Standalone and RedGD
The Wesp has a bunch of strange rules surrounding it. It's even worse than the HotS Hellbat. It's not going in. Your arguments for making the Hydra a tier 2 specialist are just not convincing. You are giving us no real data, (In RedGD's case, we actually tested a Roach almost exactly like his suggestion, it was terrible); so until further notice, the Hydra is 1.5 and 1 supply. 80 People is a much bigger sample size then you and RedGD. We are going to respect the numbers and theory on this one. Sorry if that is a deal breaker  .
If you two are still interested in participating; we are looking at ways to make the Hydra more interesting and distinct than its BW ancestor. Actives and passives are welcome as long as they feel zergy and are clean and easy to understand. No transforming into buildings, no infesting bases. Something clean and easy to understand like Blink or Stim.
Here is what we are talking about tonight:
-Warp Gate and the MSC (We aren't going to remove Photon Overcharge, but we are going to reduce its power in some way)
-Making the Hydra more interesting. (Either a new passive, active, or evolution)
-Giving new tools to Zerg, allowing them to harass better. (We are considering two new nydus worms and making the Warren tier 1.5 [Thanks Starbow!], and possibly a new Zergling morph (Raptor-lings that cost 25 gas a pop.)
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On May 16 2013 08:48 ItWhoSpeaks wrote:
-Giving new tools to Zerg, allowing them to harass better. (We are considering two new nydus worms and making the Network tier 1.5 [Thanks Starbow!], and possibly a new Zergling morph (Raptor-lings that cost 25 gas a pop.)
FTFY
Also, for those who haven't seen it: the Terran Trailer.
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I have not say the Hydra should be a 2 supply unit. The opposite is the case.
Hydra should be a 1 supply unit, but not on T 1.5.
In my patch notes, Hydras have 1 supply and you can play mass hydras.
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The Hydra is going to be a 1/5 1 supply unit until further notice. If you want, you are welcome to help us make it more interesting.
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@ItWhoSpeaks have you guys made any changes to the landed Viking damage?
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EPT
