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Zerg Identity: Supply and Cost vs P and T

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-26 08:44:50
October 11 2012 22:18 GMT
#1
Hey all, this is part 2 of my three part series on Race and Design in SC2. This is for all of my fellow fans of the Swarm who might feel that their numbers a bit thinner than they used to be.

Identity:

“Awaken my child and embrace the glory that is your birthright; know that I am the Overmind, the Eternal Will of the Swarm and that you have been created to serve me.”-Among the Ruins


Zerg are the creator's first success, and final error. They are Purity of Essence made manifest. Labeling Zerg as a hivemind species is inadequate. Calling them a contagion, insulting. They are more. In Starcraft, the Overmind was an ascendant god-entity bent on finishing its creator's work. To the Zerg, evolution is not just a tool, it is a divine process with a manifest destiny: the assimilation of all worthy life in creation. Nature's grandest design. This is what separates Zerg from so many hivemind creatures in other games. Warhammer's Tyranids simply hunger, Ridly Scott's Aliens seek to survive. Zerg strive to become perfect. The Swarm is not merely a nasty bunch of critters; it is an engine of a terrible and inevitable vision. This identity is clear in Zerg's clashes with the other races. Terran are a series of moving parts to be given purpose. Protoss, a single will to be subjugated and incorporated. Thus, against the typhoon of the Eternal Swarm, Terran fight for their survival, Protoss fight for their very souls. Mechanically, this is reflected by the Zerg's ability to adapt to change, to thrive at any given opportunity, and to overwhelm their enemies in an inevitable tide of flesh, claws, and teeth.

Supply and Zerg: Costs and Bodies

Zerg units pound for pound are the most fragile and numerous of the three races. However, due to their numbers and their virility (production ability) they are able to wear down or outright break their enemies. Therefore, of all the races, their unit supply should be the least. Lets look at early Tier Zerg Units and their Counterparts in Brood War.

Unit Name Cost: Supply: HP/Shields Damage
BW Zergling 25/0 .5 35 5
BW Hydra 75/25 1 80 5 (+3 Med +5 Large)
BW Zealot 100/0 2 100/60 16
BW Dragoon 125/50 2 100/80 10 (+5 Med+10 Large)
BW Marine 50 1 40 6
BW Firebat 50/25 1 50 4 (+4 vs Med +12 vs Small)

Here we see a distinct relationship between Zerg units and their tier 1 counterparts. Zerglings will always lose on a unit to unit basis. However 2 Zerglings will eat a Marine, and 4 Zerglings will overwhelm a Zealot. Cost for cost, Zerglings are the most efficient ground unit in terms of damage. However, having its health pool split up into 35 health chunks make their power fragile.
The Hydralisk has a similar relationship with the Dragoon. One dragoon will destroy a Hydra with relative ease. However, for each Dragoon a Protoss player has, a Zerg player can have two Hydralisks. Meaning that on open ground, Dragoons would lose to the the greater supply efficiency of hydras with no micro. However, Zerg generally loses units in this process, making reinforcement necessary. Let's look how things have changed in Starcraft 2.

Unit Name Cost Supply HP/Shields Damage
WOL Zealot 100/0 2 100/50 8x2
WOL Stalker 125/50 2 80/80 10(+4 Armored)
WOL Zergling 25/0 .5 35 5
WOL Roach 75/25 2 145 16
WOL Marine 50 1 45+10 6
WOL Marauder 125/25 2 125 10(+10 Armored)

The relationship between Zerglings and their tier 1 counterparts remain largely intact. (In fact, a 150 HP zealot goes down a little bit faster.) The relationship between Roaches and Marauders are markedly different. Roaches cost the same supply as both the Stalker and the Marauder, and narrowly loses to both (Marauder survives with 35 HP and the Stalker survives with 20 HP.) The issue here is when Zerg commits to making forces, they severely limit their supply. A Broodwar Zerg could spend 1 supply on a Hydra and 1 supply on a drone for a balanced approach to mining vs military. The trade off of this half and half approach being that the zerg player is fighting more on a unit to unit basis rather than supply to supply basis and is thus at a disadvantage. Roaches as they are implemented do not allow for this gradient macro gameplay because they take up as much supply as their opponent's units. Spawn Larva offsets this considerably, however, the dynamic and feel of Zerg as the Eternal Swarm is undermined by the inflation of supply of both SC2 Roaches and Hydralisks (both are 2 supply.)

This is not to say that Blizzard has drifted away from Zerg as a Swarm conceptually. Spawn Larva is a fantastic macro mechanic in that it produces the feeling of a rising tide of units. Creep providing mobility and points of sight gives a sense of inevitable conversion and corruption of the battlefield. Infestors can spit out effectively 8 supply of free units, and Brood Lords and Swarm Hosts literally generate Swarms of free units. This is fantastic design that sets Zerg apart from the other races. I take issue with only 2 units: The T 1.5 Roach and the Tier 2 Hydralisk because their current implementation actively takes away from the Swarm's identity as a unit that is supply efficient but more fragile in exchange.

Suggestions:
These suggestions are focused advancing the feel of the Swarm in Starcraft 2. Change Set #1 attempts to do so by giving Zerg a tier 1.5 Unit that costs 1 supply. Change Set #2 adds more unit utility to units that currently suck up supply (Corruptors.) Again, these changes are not about balance, but achieving a gameplay dynamic that feels more consistent with Zerg identity.

Change Set #1

-A Tier 1.5 Hydralisk

-Hydralisk Den now requires Spawning Pool instead of Lair.
-Muscular Augments now requires a Lair.
-Hydra Den cost reduced to 150/25
-Hydralisk damage reduced to 7+3 to Armored.
-Hydralisk cost reduced to 75/25
-Reduced Supply to 1.

Projected Effects: With a Tier 1.5 Hydra, Zerg has the ability to get more aggressive early on, without necessarily going all in. Additionally, Zerg gets a powerful means of early AA, allowing for fewer binary game states. This increased utility does come at a cost, Hydralisks are more fragile individually than Roaches, allowing the Zerg's supply to be sniped by quick enemies. This makes Zerg's positioning more important in the early game. As the game progresses, Hydralisks will become increasingly vulnerable to Area of Effect damage and units that can close the gap (like chargelots, stim bio, or speedlings) incentive the adaptation and evolution of the Swarm. Additionally, the ability for Zerg to have mobile AA allows for Protoss and Terran units to be stronger, allowing for more versatile openings versus Zerg.

-A Tier 2 Roach

-Roach Warren now requires a Lair to be built.
-Roach Warren now costs 125/75
-Increase Life to 150.
-Increase Base armor to 2 from 1.
-Increase Cost to 100/50
-Increase Burrow Move speed to 2.

Projected Effects: Roaches have a more clearly defined role as a disposable shock troop for heavy fortifications, allowing Z to break through moderate defenses. Making Roaches a Tier 2 unit allows Zerg to have some real punch in the mid game if they commit their supply to it. However, for every Roach they make, they are losing over all damage per supply and the ability to to ward off air units. The Roach fills the gap between fragile hydras and neigh invulnerable Ultras. It represents a transition in Zerg evolution, a response to the increased firepower of its enemies.

No AA Queen
-The Queen no longer has an air attack.

Projected Effects: Between Tier 1.5 Hydras and Mobile Spore Colonies (Crawlers) Zerg has enough stability in the early and mid games for defending against airborne threats. The Queen can still influence air fights with transfuse and spreading creep, allowing zerg units and structures to answer threats quickly and efficiently.

Change Set #2 (The design changes proposed here are more radical and should be taken lightly, I am not advocating that these changes be implemented, merely that something COULD be done to emphasize existing dynamics.)

A more Specialized Infestor.

-Reduced Cost to 100/100
-Fungal Growth changed. Fungal Slows affected units movement' and attack speed by 50% for 8 seconds. Fungal Growth no longer does damage. (It does reveal cloaked and burrowed units.)
-Units affected by Fungal Growth may not use abilities.
New Reseach: Viscous Musculature
Cost: 150/150/80 Seconds. Requires Hive
Infestors may cast Fungal Growth and Neural Parasite while Burrowed.

Projected Effects: With the Inclusion of the Viper, the Infestor no longer bears the mantle of being Zergs only true caster. Therefore, the Infestor can now specialize as a unit that supports the swarm in a different way. The new Fungal Growth focuses on a more defensive application. By slowing attack speed, movespeed, and preventing abilities, the Infestor can either stall advances, allowing the Swarm to muster, or it can disable key units like unsieged tanks, ghosts, or High Templar for a short period of time. With Vicsious Musculature researched, the Infestor's sinister role as an infiltrator or ambush caster becomes better defined, further differentiating it from the airborne, army-hugging Viper. These changes make the Infestor an addition to the Swarm, not a replacement.

A Swarm Friendly/More Support Oriented Corruptor
-Corruption ability changed to Corruption Egg.
-Corruption Egg starts on cooldown and gains 1 charge counter every 60 seconds. Storing up to 2 charges.
-Range: 4 Target loses 100 health over 10 seconds and is marked. This damage cannot reduce the target's hp to less than 1. If the target dies while Corrupted, it spawns broodlings equal to the unit's supply at that location. (Air units spawn Broodlings under them.)

Projected Effects: Current design of non-zerg SC2 AA units is actually quite good. Vikings can land to support ground engagements or harass enemy mineral lines. Phoenix can lift and snipe individual ground units. Both of these units can be made with the intention of a strategy rather than a strict response an enemy's composition. Corruption Egg is an attempt to allow the Corrupter to have a more pronounced and readable effect on the ground without breaking them. Additionally, the ability communicates what the Corruptor is (a giant space squid that fires parasite eggs into the enemy) and foreshadows it evolution path. (The Broodlord hatches and launches broodlings directly at the enemy.) This is a fun and slightly more meaningful ability that allows the Zerg to feel more supply efficient.

Why Supply for Change #1?
Again, these changes are about facilitating a discussion that produces more meaningful and proactive gameplay. Ideally, the advantage of Zerg is lots of damage per supply with lower HP pools than their enemies. This means that a zerg army on paper does more damage than Protoss or Terran compositions, however, because that supply is split up amongst more bodies, it takes up more physical space and there fore is spread over a wider area, meaning that if Zerg doesn't fight in an open field, their supply efficiency decreases significantly. Having a low-tier 1 supply Hydra helps makes this dynamic more pronounced without ruining the mid game utility of the Roach. It also brings early game larva efficiency more in line with Toss and Terran Production, given that you have to spend 2 larva for 2 supply worth of units, rather than 1llarva for 2 supply. This smooths the gradient between aggression and all in.

Hydralisk's have had their damage increased and their attack damage decreased as well as some tweaks to their attack animation to allow them to stutterer-step. This is in an ongoing effort to encourage micro with T 1.5 units.
Hydralisks currently require Grooved Spines (range upgrade) to attack air. It is cheap 100/100 and requires a Spawning Pool to research, but it has a long research time. This change is being tested because Phoenix and Banshees are high risk low reward ventures. This gives a 120 second window for Air harass to be effective or allow for some defensive transitions to go underway before a hoard of Hydras come knocking. Queens have 7 range AA again to compensate.


One Voice Mod Update 11/26/2012
Roaches have been getting a good deal of love lately to better define them in the mid and late game.
Roaches currently have 160 HP and base 2 armor. Do 16 damage with a slightly slower attack speed 2.2. Additionally, they move at 2.0 while borrowed. This week we will be testing a new Hive research for Roaches called Corrosive Pheromones, which applies a stack of Corrosive Pheromones to any unit that shares space with or is attacked by the Roach. Each stack reduces the armor of the target and reveals it for 10 seconds. This effect can stack up to three times and has a visual indicator. A special note, this debuff is applied when units are on top of burrowed roaches, allowing Zerg to better keep tabs on an army with a handful of roaches.

Infestors are getting a new research unlocked at hive called Resonance Chitin that allows them to use their spells while burrowed. This allows Infestors to use Neural Parasite while still allowing counterplay. Fungal's current state (slow instead of root) makes surprise Fungal Growths dangerous, but not devastating in the late game. The Infestor now feels very different from the Viper, focusing more on the element of surprise rather than prowling the skies looking for tasty units to pull.
Reflection and Respect.
thekoalaz
Profile Joined October 2011
United States109 Posts
October 11 2012 22:34 GMT
#2
Loving these series. Keep 'em coming!

I would really like changes to the corruptor to make them more interesting. In their current incarnation they are somewhat boring. I'm not sure if a direct damage spell is the way to do it but it's true that so far it's support spells have been lacking so maybe that's something to try.

Thanks!
ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
October 11 2012 22:44 GMT
#3
Thanks for the read! I have posted the link on reddit. Again, the more visibility this stuff gets, the more likely Blizzard will respond to it. Spread the word and Upvote!
Reflection and Respect.
Morton
Profile Joined July 2012
United States152 Posts
October 11 2012 22:56 GMT
#4
this is great, i again would love to see a custom map with your changes to see how they play out!

looking forward to the dev response.
rembrant
Profile Joined July 2012
62 Posts
October 11 2012 23:02 GMT
#5
I've always been a huge advocate of switching the tech tiers of hydra and roach, its still one of my biggest desires for zerg. I really like the infestor ideas too, slowing enemy damage would be a nice trade for fungal damage.
ledarsi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 23:25:46
October 11 2012 23:24 GMT
#6
These are fantastic. Your analysis and writing are top notch. Keep doing this.

As an aside, what about making the Roach and the Hydralisk both T1.5 and 1 supply? And opening up the possibility of these two units morphing at lair tech? I think having the roach be T1.5 and having it morph into the Swarm Host at lair tech, requiring a research from the Roach Warren (possibly titled Swarm Host Aspect) would be good. Ideally a 2 supply Swarm Host, but I doubt Blizzard is going to seriously consider the type of across-the-board supply cost reduction that SC2 needs. This also leaves the possibility of a lair tech hydralisk morph into a 2 supply power unit.

In any case, you are one thousand percent on point about the zerg units' supply cost being far and away too high, especially for the roach as compared to marauders and stalkers. Zerg units should be numerous and highly efficient, but with serious attrition from battle requiring resource expenditure to replenish.
"First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."
Serpest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States603 Posts
October 11 2012 23:49 GMT
#7
This. It separates WoL further from BW, but there is more marked continuity... I'm looking forward to your next analysis in this series.
A person that attempts to diagnose themselves has a fool for a doctor and a bigger fool for a patient.
ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
October 12 2012 02:07 GMT
#8
On October 12 2012 08:24 ledarsi wrote:
These are fantastic. Your analysis and writing are top notch. Keep doing this.

As an aside, what about making the Roach and the Hydralisk both T1.5 and 1 supply? And opening up the possibility of these two units morphing at lair tech? I think having the roach be T1.5 and having it morph into the Swarm Host at lair tech, requiring a research from the Roach Warren (possibly titled Swarm Host Aspect) would be good. Ideally a 2 supply Swarm Host, but I doubt Blizzard is going to seriously consider the type of across-the-board supply cost reduction that SC2 needs. This also leaves the possibility of a lair tech hydralisk morph into a 2 supply power unit.

In any case, you are one thousand percent on point about the zerg units' supply cost being far and away too high, especially for the roach as compared to marauders and stalkers. Zerg units should be numerous and highly efficient, but with serious attrition from battle requiring resource expenditure to replenish.



Thanks for reading! I intend on doing a write up for Terran tonight.
I was intrigued by three T 1.5 units in Z's tech tree. In fact, there are old pictures of such things in the early-mid alpha. I think it provided Z with a large number of options that required different compositions to effectively deal with. Just a guess though. Making the Swarm Host 2 supply is interesting, as would making it from an existing unit would further the idea that Zerg is constantly evolving. For what they offer, I would argue Swarm Hosts are a great example of a 3 supply unit. They are powerful, and provide Z with an effective multiplier on the effective supply of the Zerg Swarm. If a Swarm Host has 3 generations of locusts trade effectively, then it has payed for itself (200/100 a heavy cost for a zerg unit). I would love to see how it works out at 2 supply, however.
Reflection and Respect.
RedDragon571
Profile Joined March 2011
United States633 Posts
October 12 2012 02:56 GMT
#9
Usually, when people make threads like these, there is a diamond among a giant pile worthless rocks. With this and your protoss thread, you have been shiting gold, diamonds and platinum in such quantities, mere rocks are now a rarity.

TLDR: Great ideas, hopefully blizzard would implement these, the game would have a great feel. Lets see a Terran thread? :D
ItWhoSpeaks
Profile Joined September 2010
United States362 Posts
October 12 2012 04:03 GMT
#10
On October 12 2012 11:56 RedDragon571 wrote:
Usually, when people make threads like these, there is a diamond among a giant pile worthless rocks. With this and your protoss thread, you have been shiting gold, diamonds and platinum in such quantities, mere rocks are now a rarity.

TLDR: Great ideas, hopefully blizzard would implement these, the game would have a great feel. Lets see a Terran thread? :D


If you are looking for a Terran thread, you should check around noon tomorrow.
Reflection and Respect.
MoonPieMat
Profile Joined January 2011
United States96 Posts
October 12 2012 04:10 GMT
#11
Switching roach and hydra has long been a dream of mine in sc2. I really, really like the infestor and corruptor changes however 100 dmg over 10 seconds seems too strong. Obviously the numbers don't mean anything but the core ideas are simply breathtaking. Thank you for sharing these!

I'm excited to see your terran analysis :D
"OBJECTION!"
I_Destroy
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada22 Posts
October 12 2012 04:10 GMT
#12
I think you should try to make a map with your changes and see how well they work out and if they do. Show blizzard that they are worthy of being implemented in to the real game.
Uniden fighting!!!!!!!!-Day[9]
MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 04:49:06
October 12 2012 04:37 GMT
#13
I dont think it was blizzard's design to encourage a less swarm like Zerg, in fact their actually trying to encourage it if you look at the new hydra and the viper. It may not be successful, but I genuinely think that they want to see more of a swarm rather than a infestor/broodlord deathball.

However, it is quite obvious it was blizzard's intent to 'standardize' the races more. The Marauder, Roach and Stalker are extremely similar in terms of their tech position and roles of being an early tanky, mobile, ranged dps. They however receive ability upgrades around the same timing that diversifies them.

BW Protoss was the only race that had an early tanky, mobile dps, you didn't need to make a lot of them for it to be efficient. It lowered the macro requirement for Protoss. It was evident that a lot casual players tended towards Protoss because tanky, mobile, ranged dps units are just easier to use.

The roach and marauder was probably blizzard's attempt at fixing this issue but at the cost of creating more 'standardized' races. The problem with BW Zerg's extreme emphasis on 'swarm play' was that it took better macro than a Protoss player since you need to crank out a lot more units. It also made flank/global play a lot more necessary. This was something that more casual/normal players weren't as good at. Dustin Browder has already stated they value players of all skill levels.
It will be unlikely that the early tanky, mobile, ranged dps of zerg will be pushed to a higher tier and be replaced with an early ranged(but not tanky) dps that requires more 'swarm like' play.
Alot of my friends that didn't play BW and i encouraged to play SC2 had a lot of complaints of Zerg being more difficult than Terran or Protoss when they first started multilayer despite this 'standardization'.

I love your analysis however and the changes that you suggest could make games a lot more entertaining at the pro level.

Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
October 12 2012 05:26 GMT
#14
The idea is right (roaches and hydras are too supplyinefficient), the changes just won't work out at all.
Your T2 roach concept is not strong enough for its costs, the hydralisk probably too strong.

Basically you shift all powers and roles from the roach and the infestor to the hydralisk.
reminisce12
Profile Joined March 2012
Australia318 Posts
October 12 2012 05:29 GMT
#15
Some of these proposed changes have been suggested way b in WOL beta, blizz has shown no sign to implement drastic changes such as these, hell they wont even implement the carrier micro mechanics from bw. On top of that, the fundamental system of sc2 is that all races requires a t1 armored unit, hydra ling would get owned by reaper hellion, thats the fundamental flaw of its system where it only has 2 types of units, light and armored whereas bw had 3 small, med and large.
timoi210
Profile Joined February 2012
Philippines51 Posts
October 12 2012 05:44 GMT
#16
Are you sure you wanna go with Viscous Musculature?
EGThorZaIN, LG-IMMVP, Liquid`TLO, TtWhiteRa For Life Baby!
Alex1Sun
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
494 Posts
October 12 2012 05:52 GMT
#17
Great analysis! Perfect changes! I like what you propose much more than what other theorycrafters post.

ItWhoSpeaks for president (Blizz president)!
This is not Warcraft in space!
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 06:19:49
October 12 2012 06:18 GMT
#18
On October 12 2012 14:29 reminisce12 wrote:
Some of these proposed changes have been suggested way b in WOL beta, blizz has shown no sign to implement drastic changes such as these, hell they wont even implement the carrier micro mechanics from bw. On top of that, the fundamental system of sc2 is that all races requires a t1 armored unit, hydra ling would get owned by reaper hellion, thats the fundamental flaw of its system where it only has 2 types of units, light and armored whereas bw had 3 small, med and large.


Not actually true. Sc2 has light, armoured and plain biological (eg banelings).

Totally agree with much of the OP. As I posted earlier: T and P units have or gain more staying power with the ability to regenerate quickly between battles (medivacs, blink + regenerating shields). For zerg, only the roach gains this ability, which means all other units need to be disposable OR tanky OR highly mobile harass units OR spellcasters to be worth making. The current hydra is none of these.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Von
Profile Joined May 2009
United States363 Posts
October 12 2012 06:43 GMT
#19
Excellent analysis, excellent series well done.

Please interview with Blizzard (if you're not already occupied)

If its not fun I dont want it.
ledarsi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 06:52:47
October 12 2012 06:51 GMT
#20
For positional units like swarm hosts and siege tanks, the quantity you can actually field is incredibly important, as having a larger number gives you more possible ways to divide your army across positions. If you can only possibly have 33 swarm hosts (or tanks), you have far fewer options for how to divide that army than you do if you have 50.

In fact, especially for a unit like the swarm host, having greater quantity with weaker individuals is far more interesting than having a huge unit that costs more. Smaller, cheaper swarm hosts allow you finer control over how much you invest in them, and gives you more options about how to use their ability. Especially for spawning locusts, having greater quantity of swarm hosts allows the player to set up staggered waves at more varied intervals, apply constant pressure, or switch into a single concerted wave. Having more swarm hosts in more locations is also critical.

Not to mention having a higher cost per supply compared to more mobile units, allowing them to be stronger, but less tactically flexible. Using powerful positional units gives you a lot of power, provided you play methodically and well. Playing with slow units requires far more thought, and vastly superior mechanics, hand speed, and overall skill than using fast units.

I for one would massively enjoy having positional interplay between badass 2 supply tanks and amazing 2 supply swarm hosts (morphed from 1 supply roaches perhaps?). In this schema I am talking about a massive across-the-board supply cost drop for a huge number of units, not just these two. Small colossi, small ultras, small thors.... I can dream, can't I?

Sadly, the Hydralisk in SC2 is so bad that its only buff from BW is +2 attack damage. In exchange for which it became a lair tech unit, costing twice as much supply, and also 25 more minerals and gas. Most likely the hydra could become a 1 supply unit with only a slight damage nerf without issue.
"First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."
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