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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On September 17 2012 12:01 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 11:59 fryedman wrote:On September 17 2012 11:45 The_Templar wrote:
Hi fryedman, I'm having difficulty seeing your map design, but it seems like there's only 6 bases on the whole map.
Maps should generally have 10-14 bases depending on playstyle/size, so you should probably add some bases somewhere.
Also the map seems slightly asymmetrical (although that might be just textures). Thanks for the advice, the map is slightly asymmetric but practically the same on both sides, I am still trying my best at design. What map size would fit a 10-14 base map, or what would you recommend for that many bases? I would suggest anywhere from 130x130 to 160x160, although anyone on this site is free to correct me 
This is correct, you could be 124x124 if you were really clever with fitting things in. Taldarim altar is 176x176 (with a lot of airspace) and most people consider it too big -- and it has wasted space.
fryedman, if you use the texture fill too to give each area its own texture, it helps a lot when trying to see the map from a birds eye view.
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On September 17 2012 11:59 fryedman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 11:45 The_Templar wrote:
Hi fryedman, I'm having difficulty seeing your map design, but it seems like there's only 6 bases on the whole map.
Maps should generally have 10-14 bases depending on playstyle/size, so you should probably add some bases somewhere.
Also the map seems slightly asymmetrical (although that might be just textures). Thanks for the advice, the map is slightly asymmetric but practically the same on both sides, I am still trying my best at design. What map size would fit a 10-14 base map, or what would you recommend for that many bases?
Are you using the copy/rotate/paste tools in the editor? It's probably better to make it completely symmetrical.
Some other things:
-The bases, definitely at least the main and nat, should have 8 mineral patches, otherwise builds and timings will be thrown off. -Add more bases (at least 4 more)
-There's currently a lot of wasted space in the bottom left and top right corners, you could expand the terrain here in order to add more bases.
-The new 3rd bases should be closer to the players' naturals and easier to take.
-Don't use vertical or horizontal ramps at any places where players might need to wall off - the unbuildable area around the ramp edges is weirdly placed and makes walling difficult. This is especially important at the main and nat, and you should replace those ramps with diagonal ramps.
-The rush distance is too short. I know this was your intention, but keep in mind that this will basically prevent people from playing a macro game, whereas players can still rush even when the distances are a bit longer. It's always better to leave more options for players. An easy way to fix this is to move the naturals to the edges of the map, removing the parts of water there.
-Use less straight lines in the terrain, it looks better.
-Don't let the normal level terrain extend all the way to the edge of the map. It's better if there is a cliff or barrier to let you know where the playable terrain ends.
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@fryedman: Also in order to get nice overviews of your map go to Data -> Export Map Image.
@a176: The 3 and 9 bases seem hard for either player to take and hold without already having complete map control. Perhaps they'd be kind of useful for hiding a 4th base, but even then I'm not sure... Perhaps if the high ground that connected to this base was instead a ramp and the minerals were closer to that ramp, making the base close to your opponent's potential 4th by cliff-walkers, but still clearly your base
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Thanks everyone for the advice!
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So I was playing around with porting this new BW map...
+ Show Spoiler [Pamir Plateau] +
...and I tried to accommodate the SC2 style of 3rds by including narrow paths so you can take a 3rd without controlling your big ramp to the middle. This is what I have:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/df5R3.jpg)
Not sure how I feel about it, does this work, at all?
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I have a feeling that people will cry about tanks on that highground going towards the third. But I think the bigger prob might be a Z having a really hard time holding a 3rd against P. The P can FF the tiny choke inbetween the nat and 3rd.. and whichever side the Z army is on, the P just attacks the other side and Z is completely boned. + Show Spoiler +For instance, if the Z is expecting the 3rd to be attacked and has his army there, the P can send a sentry or two on the highground to FF the choke and the 1 FF ramp leading up to that highground while his army rolls into the natural from the middle. Insta-gg.
The trick here will be preventing that kind of abuse while also keeping the natural FFE'able. I think one possible answer would be to make a hole in that wall between the nat and 3rd and make the rocks block that instead. That way a zerg can have those rocks down by the time any kind of attack would happen and he couldn't get screwed by FFs as easily. There might be a better solution, that is just what popped in my head first. I like the map other than that (I'm a sucker for long, extended highgrounds :-P).
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On September 19 2012 10:23 Fatam wrote:I have a feeling that people will cry about tanks on that highground going towards the third. But I think the bigger prob might be a Z having a really hard time holding a 3rd against P. The P can FF the tiny choke inbetween the nat and 3rd.. and whichever side the Z army is on, the P just attacks the other side and Z is completely boned. + Show Spoiler +For instance, if the Z is expecting the 3rd to be attacked and has his army there, the P can send a sentry or two on the highground to FF the choke and the 1 FF ramp leading up to that highground while his army rolls into the natural from the middle. Insta-gg. The trick here will be preventing that kind of abuse while also keeping the natural FFE'able. I think one possible answer would be to make a hole in that wall between the nat and 3rd and make the rocks block that instead. That way a zerg can have those rocks down by the time any kind of attack would happen and he couldn't get screwed by FFs as easily. There might be a better solution, that is just what popped in my head first. I like the map other than that (I'm a sucker for long, extended highgrounds :-P).
Well I should note that the low ground paths are only partially blocked by rocks. I put them there first so that tanks could not push through those low paths without wasting time killing the rocks. So zerglings and roaches could go in a line through the low ground even before the rocks are down. The way I envision ZvP is that the zerg will try to get the pylon reinforcing the all-in, which has to be somewhere on the high ground, which means the zerg can delay / fight in a more open area that way. If the pylon is on the far side of the 3rd then they can just defend at the 3rd as normal. Also the valleys with the doodads can be opened or used to flank.
/doesanyonecare 
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I think it's probably still a problem (maybe I'm wrong though it happens a lot).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4ikC9.jpg)
That seems like a really long distance the Z army has to travel to defend - probably by the time they get there the 3rd is dead. He might have been proactive and killed those rocks that I marked, but even then it's a bit of a hike (longer than if P does the same thing on Ohana, for instance). Pic also shows that the pylon can be put pretty far away from the Z army yet close to the 3rd.
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Nice picture lol. ^^
With that pylon there, some lings should be coming from the main/nat to kill it unless the protoss leaves guys to defend it. (Not that this is a perfect counter but still.)
I am thinking the zerg will have the bulk of his units at the 3rd base already, meaning if the protoss wants to attack he must walk down the narrow ramp into 1-2 queen, 1-2 spine, and roach ling.
I agree it's scary. Have to fight to prevent the protoss from getting down into the 3rd in the first place. Maybe it just won't work. ><
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Here's the latest after a little tinkering. Had an idea for the main/nat; I stretched the map vertically a tad to accomplish this. Increasing the height also allowed me to widen a couple main pathways to un-choke the map a bit. Good? Terrible?
(I put in some temporary textures so that the different elevations would be clear)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lQcXt.jpg)
There's a couple ideas behind the intermediate high-ground w/ frontdoor exit blocked by rocks. First is that on a long rush-distance map like this Terran really gets punished by trying to attack (due to a long reinforce time). If they take down their rocks their reinforce time is dramatically reduced. Of course, it can serve as an alternate attack route as well.
oh and I changed the rocks between the 4ths to be farther down since that was a concern. I cut a gap in the trees on each side so that broodlords shooting at the 4th from above those trees wouldnt be unreachable / OP.
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On September 19 2012 14:20 EatThePath wrote:
Nice picture lol. ^^
With that pylon there, some lings should be coming from the main/nat to kill it unless the protoss leaves guys to defend it. (Not that this is a perfect counter but still.)
I am thinking the zerg will have the bulk of his units at the 3rd base already, meaning if the protoss wants to attack he must walk down the narrow ramp into 1-2 queen, 1-2 spine, and roach ling.
I agree it's scary. Have to fight to prevent the protoss from getting down into the 3rd in the first place. Maybe it just won't work. ><
We posted @ same time :-O Things -are- scary around here. I was worried that even if zerg has units in position at the 3rd, protoss can just do the opposite of what I was saying.. trap those units @ the 3rd while attacking the nat. I might be completely overreacting though, and it's not a big deal/easy to deal with. Anyway, the map has some good qualities, this is just 1 nitpick. I would love to hear other people's input, since lots of heads > my head I think.
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It's like we fell into some kind of an uncanny valley. Of timing. Ahem.
Thanks for feedback!
I like the changes to your map. I would consider using a mineral block on that ramp instead, otherwise it will be pretty scary to defend a 3rd with the possibility of attacks coming up into your main through the side door.
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@Fatam: I like the double high ground main quite a bit. I agree that a mineral block would help it to feel safer, but perhaps just stacking the rocks? This feels like a second entrance that isn't overly vulnerable when compared to other second entrances.
I have some issues with the bases on the bottom, they seem way too hard to get to as a defender and way too easy to attack. Perhaps shifting that middle ground around a bit to make the second entrance closer to the bases on the bottom?
It also seems like the third is pretty susceptible to force fields.
@EatThePath: I think this is a great concept and a cool adaptation of a BW map. You could make that path between the natural and third wider but fill part of it with low count minerals so you can make it wider by mining at it. This would help by letting the defender choose what type of terrain they'd rather have.
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Hey everyone, started to work on the aesthetics of my map, and this is what I came up with so far! I call it lazy texturing-- using decals because I'm bad at it / decals make everything look good! I also used the lighting editor for the first time to create the lighting....it was....interesting .
+ Show Spoiler +
Only the main and those bridges are done currently (the editor wasn't letting me make the fancy type of bridges  ). Let me know what you think! Going to be working on my map more often (I say that, but Torchlight II and the WoW expansion on the 25th, so it probably wont be done for a while!). Let me know what you think!
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On September 20 2012 09:28 Ruinsteel wrote:Hey everyone, started to work on the aesthetics of my map, and this is what I came up with so far! I call it lazy texturing-- using decals because I'm bad at it / decals make everything look good! I also used the lighting editor for the first time to create the lighting....it was....interesting . + Show Spoiler +Only the main and those bridges are done currently (the editor wasn't letting me make the fancy type of bridges ). Let me know what you think! Going to be working on my map more often (I say that, but Torchlight II and the WoW expansion on the 25th, so it probably wont be done for a while!). Let me know what you think!
Do note that people playing on low settings will not see the decals. It's best to paint textures so they look decent even if the decals aren't there.
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On September 20 2012 09:32 iamcaustic wrote:Do note that people playing on low settings will not see the decals. It's best to paint textures so they look decent even if the decals aren't there.
Didn't know that! But I did paint the textures fairly well before placing decals down. The decals were added in after to enhance the visuals (at least in my opinion)!
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It looks nice. Standard square corner no-blend painting, but it still looks nice.
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I like the changes to your map. I would consider using a mineral block on that ramp instead, otherwise it will be pretty scary to defend a 3rd with the possibility of attacks coming up into your main through the side door.
@Fatam: I like the double high ground main quite a bit. I agree that a mineral block would help it to feel safer, but perhaps just stacking the rocks? This feels like a second entrance that isn't overly vulnerable when compared to other second entrances.
I have some issues with the bases on the bottom, they seem way too hard to get to as a defender and way too easy to attack. Perhaps shifting that middle ground around a bit to make the second entrance closer to the bases on the bottom?
It also seems like the third is pretty susceptible to force fields.
Yeah I kind of noticed the FF thing right after I was talking about it on Path's map LOL. Although I don't think it's too bad because you would need at least 5 FFs, probably 6 to block off in this instance. I'll probably widen the path/ramp a little, though.
@ the mineral block.. I kind of hate mineral blocks, but I might. The other option is to just slide that ramp more towards the other ramp (and hence, the 3rd) so they aren't so far apart.
I agree the bottom bases might be too far away. This is a pretty tricky problem to solve, as there's literally nowhere else to put them. I'll probably end up having to move the main or do something else drastic.
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On September 20 2012 09:28 Ruinsteel wrote:Hey everyone, started to work on the aesthetics of my map, and this is what I came up with so far! I call it lazy texturing-- using decals because I'm bad at it / decals make everything look good! I also used the lighting editor for the first time to create the lighting....it was....interesting . + Show Spoiler +Only the main and those bridges are done currently (the editor wasn't letting me make the fancy type of bridges ). Let me know what you think! Going to be working on my map more often (I say that, but Torchlight II and the WoW expansion on the 25th, so it probably wont be done for a while!). Let me know what you think!
It looks like a very small main, and an even smaller natural. At least to me. I'd make them both bigger.
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On September 20 2012 09:32 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 09:28 Ruinsteel wrote:Hey everyone, started to work on the aesthetics of my map, and this is what I came up with so far! I call it lazy texturing-- using decals because I'm bad at it / decals make everything look good! I also used the lighting editor for the first time to create the lighting....it was....interesting . + Show Spoiler +Only the main and those bridges are done currently (the editor wasn't letting me make the fancy type of bridges ). Let me know what you think! Going to be working on my map more often (I say that, but Torchlight II and the WoW expansion on the 25th, so it probably wont be done for a while!). Let me know what you think! Do note that people playing on low settings will not see the decals. It's best to paint textures so they look decent even if the decals aren't there.
Wow, I didn't know that. Good to know.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://stproxy.afreeca.com/DATA/NORMAL_BBS/4/55614/Pamir_Plat.0.80.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xlNU5.jpg)
