EPTWork In Progress Melee Maps - Page 20
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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin | ||
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RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On November 08 2012 21:22 Drake Merrwin wrote: Yet 2base all ins are very uncommon on Whirlwind and very common on say Daybreak? They are also extremely common on Ohana where a third base is very easy. Seems to me that 2base all ins are very much a product as well of simply a choked up third that can be easily forcefielded.Well I don't like maps where you can't take a safe (not easy but safe) third. Like on Antiga or Whirlwind. I don't like watching PvZ on maps where 2 base all ins are going to happen. But I digress, if blizzard designed Protoss even decently then we, map mapmakers, wouldn't have to try to fix their mistakes. =( I don't think this is a problem with Protoss as much as with lower level players. The hard part isn't holding a third, the hard part is infestor/broodlord which a third might lead to. Which is why I like pressure expands in PvZ rather than 'expand and sit back' which forces units out.BTW, gold bases should not have gasses. Just makes them better than normal bases and not, what they should be, viable mineral bases. The point is that they are better than normal bases but in a location harder to take, is it not?PS: Walling at the nexus is never safe because if zerg makes any number of roachs, you're gonna cry your soul out. Trust me. Fuck you Metalopolis. Fuck you. At the time Zerg produces roaches from 3 bases you will have forcefields and a stalker, if it's a one base roach you need to spam cannons but the lack of natural is easy to identify in which case you should spam cannons anyway.Just make it 3 gate wide. It's not a bad thing. I consider being able to wall with 3 3x3 buildings bad map design because it creates stale games. P FFE's, Z can't do anything about it, then P either takes a third or 2base all ins. Z either tries to pressure the third or sit back himself, in any case it leads to games with not a lot happening. To get back to your point, but I digress, if mapmakers designed PvZ decently then Blizzard wouldn't have to try to fix their mistakes. It's a shame that P players at this point demand a FFE on every map because the mere fact that this strategy is possible is bad for the spectator value of the game I feel. This strategy is the reason a lot of people hate to watch PvZ at the moment. | ||
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turtles
Australia360 Posts
Just wanted to let everyone know that if you would like me to add SALT to any of these maps then feel free to say so here or PM me and I can have it set up in about 2 minutes. It is a tool which allows you to save, load and swap sides during multiplayer games against a training partner. (you can also run through build orders) I just added it to Ravenous Depths by lefix from The Planetary Workshop and Wightbane Gorge by NewSunshine one of the finalists of the September MoTM competition. Most of the maps shown here don't have a name though so I haven't added it to any of these maps. Here is a link to what SALT is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=297534¤tpage=3#44 | ||
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Drake Merrwin
Canada130 Posts
On November 09 2012 01:40 SiskosGoatee wrote: Yet 2base all ins are very uncommon on Whirlwind and very common on say Daybreak? They are also extremely common on Ohana where a third base is very easy. Seems to me that 2base all ins are very much a product as well of simply a choked up third that can be easily forcefielded. I don't think this is a problem with Protoss as much as with lower level players. The hard part isn't holding a third, the hard part is infestor/broodlord which a third might lead to. Which is why I like pressure expands in PvZ rather than 'expand and sit back' which forces units out. The point is that they are better than normal bases but in a location harder to take, is it not? At the time Zerg produces roaches from 3 bases you will have forcefields and a stalker, if it's a one base roach you need to spam cannons but the lack of natural is easy to identify in which case you should spam cannons anyway. I consider being able to wall with 3 3x3 buildings bad map design because it creates stale games. P FFE's, Z can't do anything about it, then P either takes a third or 2base all ins. Z either tries to pressure the third or sit back himself, in any case it leads to games with not a lot happening. To get back to your point, but I digress, if mapmakers designed PvZ decently then Blizzard wouldn't have to try to fix their mistakes. It's a shame that P players at this point demand a FFE on every map because the mere fact that this strategy is possible is bad for the spectator value of the game I feel. This strategy is the reason a lot of people hate to watch PvZ at the moment. What? People don't like PvZ because protoss can't be a aggressive in a small way until late game. It's all ways all in until that point. And then zerg just get's to late game and starves protoss out. Zergs even have options to do small attacks like muta mid games or drops! But after that it always goes back to infestor BL bullshit passive strangle hold. And punishing a build because you don't like watching it when the alternatives suck is dumb. I wish gate way based expands or even small aggression off FFE is good like in BW or HotS but they are not. So until then, just let toss expand normally. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On November 09 2012 20:00 Drake Merrwin wrote: That's what you do to yourself by forge expanding, try this build for a change, it's actually pretty good:What? People don't like PvZ because protoss can't be a aggressive in a small way until late game. - 14 gate (2 chronos before gate) - 15 gas - 18 gate - 18 core - 18 pylon - 18 gas - pylon core and second gate should finish around the same time and you should have the resources for two chronoed stalkers - go pressure with stalkers, make sentries at home and expand behind the pressure. Of course, check for ling speed timing with scouting probe, doesn't work versus 14g/14p because ling speed is out too early, kite slow lings with stalkers, stop creep tumours, any overlord caught by surprise is of course a big win. This build enables me to typically maintain an income lead over Zerg for a very long time, added bonus is that it can transition into a 4gate instead of a nexus if you see Zerg is being too greedy, it can also transition into a dt expand if you like. You can make 2 more stalkers up to 4 if you notice that ling speed is really late with the scouting probe. Make sure to get all stalkers home before ling speed is done of course, just add extra gates and a forge at home behind the pressure, might take some training to be able to do this while kiting slowlings with stalkers. Focussing lings down while you kite rather than just using hold position is a big plus for this strat, it takes 4 stalker shots to kill a ling. And punishing a build because you don't like watching it when the alternatives suck is dumb. I wish gate way based expands or even small aggression off FFE is good like in BW or HotS but they are not. So until then, just let toss expand normally. It's your own choice to FFE. I FFE about 20% of the time in PvZ, while FFE is strong and easy on the current set of maps because of the easy to defend natural for Zerg as well as protoss. On a more open natural like say Antiga, Dual Sight or Xel'Naga this strategy is in my opinion far superior and very potent.Map designers have decided to make naturals hyper defensive, therefore forge FE is easy to pull off and small pressure hard, like I said, don't rely on Blizzard to fix the mistakes of map designers, people wanted easier to defend naturals because they were sick of all in, well, this is what it led to, NR20 games. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zlss2.jpg) - ramp changed from 3 width to 4 width - that pod thing Tell me what you think? No idea if somethnig like this can ever work but I sure as hell want to try it. | ||
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Rukis
United States252 Posts
Trident Reluctant[TBN] WIP Hello my fellow map making companions! I have brought you my most recent and soon to be finished map. The idea here is that people would push to take bases but we can all see how that would work out right? All-ins everyday, just kidding. Anyways here we have a couple choices for most races, Zerg may have to either take hidden base 2-base play or walk that drone all the way around to the third, immediately take those rocks done if going for that third that is blocked by rocks.. and etc for the other races. This map was inspired by Destination, as weird as it sounds. It first started out with 2 bridges, formed into one and then now just a pathway. Map bounds: 203x167 Playable Published: NA Overview: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8dAnx.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PKgGv.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qia7L.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zxONU.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fuzcE.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uw2aj.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YYvoh.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nuTVk.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iezWQ.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bVJiP.jpg) | ||
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lefix
Germany1082 Posts
i don't quite like how the horizontal third and fourth are kind of leapfrogging bases. all lined up with not additional entrances. also, the dead end bases at the sides don't need to extend that far out, all it does is add a large strip of air space on both sides. imho move them back in and maybe lift it up one cliff leve. there is no real need to use 2 ramps there. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
I'm all for hard thirds but the third layout there I believe does represent a problem in more than one matchup. Especially ZvP, Zerg has to take the frontal third which could be problematic, the back third takes too long for a drone to travel, the frontal third in PvZ also might be "impossible" to hold. The routes up to the 4/11 O'clock expansions are also overly complicated I feel with its successive ramping and the chokse around it look fairly troublesome. It's pretty hard to comment on anything honestly because the map is extremely unusual, only playing it can tell the whole story I feel but I have a gut feeling it's not going to go well. It's just tob deviant from standard map layouts. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7amVX.jpg) Any comments on the water? Good idea or not? I know many people don't like flooded areas so is there a particular problem with it? | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
and I think there is another map floating (:-P) around that has a halfway submerged 3rd base which looks kinda cool. Basically the "water causes lag" thing is a myth, so you should be fine. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On November 12 2012 12:38 Fatam wrote: So why isn't it used more then? I see partial submersion being removed from a lot of maps, Ohana and Bel'Shir Beach for instance.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367874 and I think there is another map floating (:-P) around that has a halfway submerged 3rd base which looks kinda cool. Basically the "water causes lag" thing is a myth, so you should be fine. | ||
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Fatam
1986 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On November 12 2012 13:38 SiskosGoatee wrote: So why isn't it used more then? I see partial submersion being removed from a lot of maps, Ohana and Bel'Shir Beach for instance. It mostly has to do with the way terrain is contorted around the construction of a building. In other words, the terrain's shape looks fine before, but is forcibly flattened for a building and screws up the look of it. So either you have to use building blockers or remove it altogether, the latter being the preferred decision. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On November 12 2012 15:04 NewSunshine wrote: Hmm, maybe I should make the entire flooded areas unbuildable altogether. It's lore-wise pretty cool I guess that you can't build on water. here is an overview of all the parts that are flooded? Does anyone see a particular balance problem with just saying 'You can't build on water'? You can still wall the choke if you need to, one thing is that it removes qxc bunkers but I don't see that to be a major problem, and I guess you have to place pylons in weird locations to wall it.It mostly has to do with the way terrain is contorted around the construction of a building. In other words, the terrain's shape looks fine before, but is forcibly flattened for a building and screws up the look of it. So either you have to use building blockers or remove it altogether, the latter being the preferred decision. | ||
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RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
Having the area between your natural and third unbuildable is interesting, but I'm not sure if it will work. Currently terrans are pretty reliant on bunkers to survive and zergs on spine crawlers (at least on antiga), and I do like when static defense is strong (subjective  ). | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
On November 12 2012 11:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Any comments on the water? Good idea or not? I know many people don't like flooded areas so is there a particular problem with it? test water with zerglings in the blue-ish to grey part of the color spectrum. with cerrain fog setups this can be quite a problem for most gamers. quite well understandable why. On November 10 2012 18:56 Rukis wrote:+ Show Spoiler + EDIT: 11/11/12 - Overview picture. Trident Reluctant[TBN] WIP Hello my fellow map making companions! I have brought you my most recent and soon to be finished map. The idea here is that people would push to take bases but we can all see how that would work out right? All-ins everyday, just kidding. Anyways here we have a couple choices for most races, Zerg may have to either take hidden base 2-base play or walk that drone all the way around to the third, immediately take those rocks done if going for that third that is blocked by rocks.. and etc for the other races. This map was inspired by Destination, as weird as it sounds. It first started out with 2 bridges, formed into one and then now just a pathway. Map bounds: 203x167 Playable Published: NA Overview: + Show Spoiler +
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GdlNh.jpg) (Excuse the poorly drawn image, I'm on my laptop and don't have a mouse connected to it, so touchpad drawing ftw!) My idea was since so many players want a 3rd base to be safe enough to take, why not split up the 3rd base. So have two easy to hold 4m 1g bases. In my drawing you'd have an inbase natural (think Crevasse) but obviously the in base natural would only have 4m1g. You'd still be able to take your natural, which is a full base but you'd maybe have it a little more open (Think Dual Sight) It'd still be safe enough to forge fast expand on, but it'd overall just be tougher to hold then say Cloud Kingdom where you can easily wall in with 3 3x3 buildings. Then what you'd do it add another fairly easy to hold spot that you'd put another 4m1g base. I just put it behind the natural in this picture so you kind of get the idea. To me it seems you could then sneak your inbase expo and be super greedy, although it only is 4m1g, or you could go for your normal full base natural. You'd then have the option of 1 base play, 1 and 1/2 base play, 2 base play 2 1/2 base play or a full 3 base play (assuming you throw down 4 CC/Nexus/Hatch) My other reasoning for doing something like this is that you could then make the 1/2 bases much more vulnerable to air harass (how I showed it off in the picture) where as yes you "can" get a full 3rd, but it'll take a little longer to get there and you also open yourself up to more air harass, which could make more exciting gameplay. Thoughts? Maybe, I'm just crazy.  | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
More open naturals is always cool, I like it if more maps do risque things like this because this map basically says 'You cannot use normal expansion builds you use on any other map' which I believe is cool. | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oHjed.jpg) (Loosely based on this BW map) | ||
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