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On July 31 2012 01:06 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 00:36 Monochromatic wrote:
With the tumor where it is this map would be horribly imba for zerg. Creep takes too long to recede and it forces a scan, or much worse, a robo bay, to take your third. Maps shouldn't force you to get a certain tech to expand.
Also, can you get some analyzer pics up? I really can't make out the layout in the center. And if those are XNW on the center islands, I'd suggest removing them. Really, a scan or a robo/canon is too much to handle to take a third now?
Didn't think of cannons, would they detect it from off the creep?
Basically, the problem is that T and P need to do something that would hurt them while Z has no problem at all. Forcing a robo is bad because it kills certain strategies, as in every one without a fast robo that involves you taking a third.
EDIT: Creep spreads in a range of 10, cannons detect in range 11. So I think a cannon will work. Still though, you are forcing a cannon to be made, then you wait a while for creep to recede, then build the nexus. That is 25 => 40 => 85 (Assuming creep recede speed is the same as creep spread speed.) => 100 seconds. In total, 250 seconds, over 4 minutes to build a base there. Z doesn't have to wait at all, T has to wait 185 seconds and use a scan. As you can see, this is an incredibly Z favored way of blocking buildings.
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While I don't exactly agree that the creep tumor is necessarily bad for T/P(a cannon/turret would work fine, and is usually useful on 2 bases anyway), if it does turn out to be a problem, consider a neutral nydus worm behind the mineral line instead.
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On July 31 2012 03:27 NewSunshine wrote:
While I don't exactly agree that the creep tumor is necessarily bad for T/P(a cannon/turret would work fine, and is usually useful on 2 bases anyway), if it does turn out to be a problem, consider a neutral nydus worm behind the mineral line instead.
No, then you could kill it and warp in to the main. I could just make the tumor visible if that was a viable solution, but unfortunately it won't work.
What you guys aren't considering is that there is an inbase expansion which changes the whole dynamic of the match ups because its essentially a free base. Protoss/Terran aren't going to be doing the same FE builds that they do on any map we've got today. So saying "it forces a robo or scan" and "Zerg op because easier third" isn't a fair logic because the first two bases are totally different and are a little better for P/T than the current metagame standard.
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blink stalker observer warp prism 2base cheeses seem pretty impossible to deal with on this map as zerg. its even worse than metropolis im afraid :/
you should conciser widening the ramp to the nat and also the choke to exit the main base and add destructible debris over them so early game isnt changed at same time 1 forcefield wont screw zerg over completely if zerg has destroyed his rocks
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On July 31 2012 04:17 MorroW wrote:
blink stalker observer warp prism 2base cheeses seem pretty impossible to deal with on this map as zerg. its even worse than metropolis im afraid :/
you should conciser widening the ramp to the nat and also the choke to exit the main base and add destructible debris over them so early game isnt changed at same time 1 forcefield wont screw zerg over completely if zerg has destroyed his rocks
Hmm yeah I do agree that it could be annoying. I don't think it'll be impossible, but it could prove to be a little bit too powerful. I like the 1x ramp but if the FF drops become too powerful then I'll be glad to widen the ramp. Widening the main choke is a great idea that I didn't really think about, but I'm concerned that you won't be able to get vision over the whole thing from the highground. I'd like to keep it like this, but if test games show that its too small then a wider choke with rocks is a great solution.
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Hm, with a lot of criticism revolving around the creep tumour at the third, what if the map were adjusted to more closely reflect the original, in that the third be pushed a little further up and some sort of pathing gap be placed to deny warp ins. Would have the added benefit of denying early high-ground siege tank shenanigans, which the creep tumour offers no solution for.
The more I think about it, the more I can imagine it in TvT: proxy factory madness. Plus, proxy starport on the island high ground. Oh God. Things worth considering, monitor. 
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On July 31 2012 03:39 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:27 NewSunshine wrote:
While I don't exactly agree that the creep tumor is necessarily bad for T/P(a cannon/turret would work fine, and is usually useful on 2 bases anyway), if it does turn out to be a problem, consider a neutral nydus worm behind the mineral line instead. No, then you could kill it and warp in to the main. I could just make the tumor visible if that was a viable solution, but unfortunately it won't work. What you guys aren't considering is that there is an inbase expansion which changes the whole dynamic of the match ups because its essentially a free base. Protoss/Terran aren't going to be doing the same FE builds that they do on any map we've got today. So saying "it forces a robo or scan" and "Zerg op because easier third" isn't a fair logic because the first two bases are totally different and are a little better for P/T than the current metagame standard.
I fail to see how the in base expansion would change anything in PvZ. ZvT I'm not as worried about on this map, as a 3 OC opening can just scan and float in.
In PvZ, I see a FFE to cover the main entrance and then taking your nat -which would be the one in your base. To me the matchup would play out fairly standard, with a 2 base all in coming from protoss. That said, I think that your map is forcing the protoss to 2 base all in because the toss cannot take his third quickly.
Thinking about it, a blink stalker all in would do really well vs zerg, as they can blink in from that high ground to the main, without an obs. I'm picturing a group of stalkers walking into the third, pull the roaches there, then blinking into the main, making the roaches walk all the way around, then the stalkers can just walk into the nat and blink out.
EDIT: See that morrow has the same concern. Probably should read the rest of the thread before replying.
Overall though, I just feel like having a neutral creep tumor makes it impossible to take an early third if you aren't zerg.
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I have another potential tweak idea. Try reworking the position of the 3rd, so that a cannon placed at the main choke detects the creep tumor.
If it is a problem that might be something to consider. I don't see the 3rd being that bad though, so I can't really say, just an idea if you decide to cave Moni
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On July 31 2012 04:45 stormfoxSC wrote:Hm, with a lot of criticism revolving around the creep tumour at the third, what if the map were adjusted to more closely reflect the original, in that the third be pushed a little further up and some sort of pathing gap be placed to deny warp ins. Would have the added benefit of denying early high-ground siege tank shenanigans, which the creep tumour offers no solution for. The more I think about it, the more I can imagine it in TvT: proxy factory madness. Plus, proxy starport on the island high ground. Oh God. Things worth considering, monitor.
I could, but I like it the way it is right now.
On July 31 2012 05:38 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 03:39 monitor wrote:On July 31 2012 03:27 NewSunshine wrote:
While I don't exactly agree that the creep tumor is necessarily bad for T/P(a cannon/turret would work fine, and is usually useful on 2 bases anyway), if it does turn out to be a problem, consider a neutral nydus worm behind the mineral line instead. No, then you could kill it and warp in to the main. I could just make the tumor visible if that was a viable solution, but unfortunately it won't work. What you guys aren't considering is that there is an inbase expansion which changes the whole dynamic of the match ups because its essentially a free base. Protoss/Terran aren't going to be doing the same FE builds that they do on any map we've got today. So saying "it forces a robo or scan" and "Zerg op because easier third" isn't a fair logic because the first two bases are totally different and are a little better for P/T than the current metagame standard. I fail to see how the in base expansion would change anything in PvZ. ZvT I'm not as worried about on this map, as a 3 OC opening can just scan and float in. In PvZ, I see a FFE to cover the main entrance and then taking your nat -which would be the one in your base. To me the matchup would play out fairly standard, with a 2 base all in coming from protoss. That said, I think that your map is forcing the protoss to 2 base all in because the toss cannot take his third quickly. Thinking about it, a blink stalker all in would do really well vs zerg, as they can blink in from that high ground to the main, without an obs. I'm picturing a group of stalkers walking into the third, pull the roaches there, then blinking into the main, making the roaches walk all the way around, then the stalkers can just walk into the nat and blink out. EDIT: See that morrow has the same concern. Probably should read the rest of the thread before replying. Overall though, I just feel like having a neutral creep tumor makes it impossible to take an early third if you aren't zerg.
The blink stalker thing is the same on every map if you have an observer, so I don't think its going to be map breaking. Also, the inbase does affect PvZ because Protoss is a little safer teching and can also abuse warp prisms more than most maps. Getting a robo for an obs or building a cannon isn't too much to ask I hope. An "early third" isn't possible without detection, but this will just play a little differently than other maps. You can build a cannon in the main and kill the tumor early if you're willing to spend 150 to get the third super early.
On July 31 2012 05:51 NewSunshine wrote:I have another potential tweak idea. Try reworking the position of the 3rd, so that a cannon placed at the main choke detects the creep tumor. If it is a problem that might be something to consider. I don't see the 3rd being that bad though, so I can't really say, just an idea if you decide to cave Moni
I could, but I don't pan on caving quite yet. I'll make a decision after I've seen more high level games.
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I really dislike that creep tumor, forcing protosses down Robo/Denying 1 mule or focing an extra 100/150 minerals from the other 2 races to take a third makes no sense to me. Is there no other way of making pylons there not work? It just seems like it will be a zerg map by default.
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On August 07 2012 20:29 Hypemeup wrote:
I really dislike that creep tumor, forcing protosses down Robo/Denying 1 mule or focing an extra 100/150 minerals from the other 2 races to take a third makes no sense to me. Is there no other way of making pylons there not work? It just seems like it will be a zerg map by default.
I don't think forcing an obs or scan makes it a zerg map especially when you consider that there are cliffs at the fourth and inbase expansions. However, yes there is another solution, and that is using the painted creep around the edge (but not where the Nexus/CC would go). The problem is that prevents building anything there forever, and Zerg can always build a spinecrawler and poke the opponents main.
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On August 08 2012 01:06 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 20:29 Hypemeup wrote:
I really dislike that creep tumor, forcing protosses down Robo/Denying 1 mule or focing an extra 100/150 minerals from the other 2 races to take a third makes no sense to me. Is there no other way of making pylons there not work? It just seems like it will be a zerg map by default. I don't think forcing an obs or scan makes it a zerg map especially when you consider that there are cliffs at the fourth and inbase expansions. However, yes there is another solution, and that is using the painted creep around the edge (but not where the Nexus/CC would go). The problem is that prevents building anything there forever, and Zerg can always build a spinecrawler and poke the opponents main.
You could technically paint it in such a pattern that Zerg can't make spinecrawlers either.
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On August 08 2012 01:06 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 20:29 Hypemeup wrote:
I really dislike that creep tumor, forcing protosses down Robo/Denying 1 mule or focing an extra 100/150 minerals from the other 2 races to take a third makes no sense to me. Is there no other way of making pylons there not work? It just seems like it will be a zerg map by default. I don't think forcing an obs or scan makes it a zerg map especially when you consider that there are cliffs at the fourth and inbase expansions. However, yes there is another solution, and that is using the painted creep around the edge (but not where the Nexus/CC would go). The problem is that prevents building anything there forever, and Zerg can always build a spinecrawler and poke the opponents main.
I still think that would be prefered over making 2 races pay more & delay their expos. And with the tumor zerg can build a spine there anyways.
I dont know if making it unbuildable permanently along that edge is a big deal anyways. Buildings that would normally be placed there are turrets/cannons? I dont see people wanting to protect drops comming from inside their main anyways. Protoss players sometimes put gateways around their third but honestly I dont think that would matter, they can scatter gateways all over the place and be fine.
Other then that I really dig the look of the map, but I cant find it on EU to play on.
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On August 08 2012 01:51 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:06 monitor wrote:On August 07 2012 20:29 Hypemeup wrote:
I really dislike that creep tumor, forcing protosses down Robo/Denying 1 mule or focing an extra 100/150 minerals from the other 2 races to take a third makes no sense to me. Is there no other way of making pylons there not work? It just seems like it will be a zerg map by default. I don't think forcing an obs or scan makes it a zerg map especially when you consider that there are cliffs at the fourth and inbase expansions. However, yes there is another solution, and that is using the painted creep around the edge (but not where the Nexus/CC would go). The problem is that prevents building anything there forever, and Zerg can always build a spinecrawler and poke the opponents main. I still think that would be prefered over making 2 races pay more & delay their expos. And with the tumor zerg can build a spine there anyways. I dont know if making it unbuildable permanently along that edge is a big deal anyways. Buildings that would normally be placed there are turrets/cannons? I dont see people wanting to protect drops comming from inside their main anyways. Protoss players sometimes put gateways around their third but honestly I dont think that would matter, they can scatter gateways all over the place and be fine. Other then that I really dig the look of the map, but I cant find it on EU to play on.
Yes the tumor allows zergs to build spines, but not if the Protoss/Terran kills it off early-ish. I like the idea of painting the creep so there isn't enough space to build a spine though.
[edit] Hmm should be up on EU in Arcade, but I'll check again. Sorry!
I still think that would be prefered over making 2 races pay more & delay their expos
I don't mean to call you out, but you're neglecting the map design. If I took Cloud Kingdom and put a creep tumor near the third, then yes it would have the effect of making it more in favor of Zerg. But this map isn't the same as any map that is currently in the metagame, and balance is nowhere near as precise since there hasn't been an abundance of professional testing. You have take into account that maybe this isn't a 50% balance map in all match ups and major some features hurt Zerg, like the inbase. For example
-Protoss is much safer than a map like Antiga or Ohana because there's only a 1-FF wide choke entering the two bases.
-Protoss can abuse warp prisms much easier because there is a 1x ramp leading into the natural
-Terran drops are more effective than some maps because the ground distance between the third and the main is much longer than air (easy to pick up and move the drop).
-Terran can take the island expansions more "easily" than Zerg, given that they can defend mutas/infestors/overlord drops
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On July 31 2012 07:43 monitor wrote:
The blink stalker thing is the same on every map if you have an observer, so I don't think its going to be map breaking. Also, the inbase does affect PvZ because Protoss is a little safer teching and can also abuse warp prisms more than most maps. Getting a robo for an obs or building a cannon isn't too much to ask I hope. An "early third" isn't possible without detection, but this will just play a little differently than other maps. You can build a cannon in the main and kill the tumor early if you're willing to spend 150 to get the third super early.
Honestly I think not having to get an obs out to assist with the 4 gate + blink timing is going to make it really super hard to hold off in both PvP and PvZ. Without having to get that obs its going to make that timing hit sooo much faster, since you dont need to get a robo bay out at all to do it.
The creep tumor seems like a nice solution, but hasn't anyone seen Spanishiwa's spine crawler rush against a FFE opponent? I've seen him use it on cloud kingdom to kill the off the main protoss buildings before warp gate was finished. The catch to his strategy was that you needed to get a super fast lair to poop creep so you could put up the tumors and crawlers.
The difference is that on this map, to pull off those strats, you don't need to get the early tech buildings which would nornally slow down the pushes. These strats have been used successfully against pros even with the hindrance of needing lar tech/robo. I'm not saying its map breaking, but the metagame on this map would be totally different from what we've been seeing lately, and I don't think pros or even folks on ladder would like to have to deal with all that. The bottom line is that I don't see any map working with high ground overlooking the main base that is accessible to ground units without drastically messing up the meta game.
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Messing up the metagame is the point :D More of the same = boring!
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On August 08 2012 04:30 prodiG wrote:
Messing up the metagame is the point :D More of the same = boring!
I agree, except I don't want to completely ruin forge FEs. I hope it doesn't do that!
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I am going to be on Doa's show Cartographer today talking about Bloody Ridge, check it out in about 20 minutes (3:00pm PST) at http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague.
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I think there should just be a TON of neutral supply depots where the creep tumor is to stop pylons so you can warp in because the creep tumor makes it imba for zerg and condemns protoss and zerg to all in as it is difficult to play macro when you can not get a third
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On August 08 2012 07:56 swedishfished wrote:
I think there should just be a TON of neutral supply depots where the creep tumor is to stop pylons so you can warp in because the creep tumor makes it imba for zerg and condemns protoss and zerg to all in as it is difficult to play macro when you can not get a third
Thats actually not a bad idea. I tried the painted creep- Gfire pointed out that it doesn't work well because it never goes away and it doesn't follow the same rules the normal creep does. I also tried building blockers, but then too much of the expansion is unbuildable (same as the creep though, I suppose). Supply depots would prevent Z from building spine crawlers, allow the third to be taken early, and give building room if players killed them.
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On August 08 2012 07:56 swedishfished wrote:
I think there should just be a TON of neutral supply depots where the creep tumor is to stop pylons so you can warp in because the creep tumor makes it imba for zerg and condemns protoss and zerg to all in as it is difficult to play macro when you can not get a third
I don't get how getting ONE observer will make you have to all in. I think Starcraft players are too reliant on 3 free bases these days.
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EPT
