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OxyGenesis
United Kingdom281 Posts
As for the layout, some really interesting ideas going on here which is great from a map making perspective. I'm not a high level player so I can't really comment on balance but as a zerg I would be very scared of close by air double stargate. Care to share Timetwister's bridge strat or is it an ESV secret? I definitely see bridges playing a larger role in future maps. | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
About the deco, think that the chlorophyll-based life on this planet adapted to higher temperatures and toxic gases and it's fine :> | ||
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OxyGenesis
United Kingdom281 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
- Before the rocks are broken, the only parts separating the two halves are those tiny bridges, which are relatively close together. it is supremely easy for T and P to wall and/or control this against Zerg in some way, there's just no way for Zerg to cross them map before taking out the rocks or getting brood lords if T or P doesn't want them to. Similar problems will no doubt arise in PVT, imagine chargelots having to go through that choke into a bio concave, it'll be disastrous. - The air rush distance of close by air compared to the ground distance is extremely skewed. Drops or mass muta will be extremely powerful. I forsee this map being hugely Z favoured in ZvT if you spawn close by air (as mutas counter drops) and hugely T favoured in any other spawn due to the chokes. In TvP, you can basically see him move out, load up a doom drop, kill whatever he has and then load back up to defend your main if you spawn there, mass muta against Protoss would be extremely potent because both the natural and the main are very easily exposed by this air path. - On the flipside, where will Z take a fourth if you spawn close by air? They have to break rocks down to do, rocks which are very far away and leave your main undefended, they either have to do that, or expand to the other side of the map, or to a place which seems siegable from their opponent's natural. It's a unique map for sure, but I feel there are a reason certain formations are standard, because they've shown to work. The early days of SC2 were full of unique and diverse maps made by Blizzard, the maps that are now viewed as 'standard' are only standard because their formula has been shown to work in the context of sc2. Having an air rush distance that is so much shorter than a ground rush distance just doesn't work in practice, there's a reason no one likes scrap station. Even though it's very unique. | ||
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Semmo
Korea (South)627 Posts
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
- i agree that the map will be different in close air because of the natural position, but you can make more turrets than usually and be fine. keep in mind that your third is safer. For pvz, it's actually very easy for the protoss to attack and retreat with blink stalkers because of the natural cliff toward the middle. Concerning doom drops, the air distance is slightly longer than on metalopolis and i never heard this being an issue. Very small issue - You answer your own question, if you want to take a 4th, you already have a big army to destroy the rocks quickly and you use spore and spine crawlers in nat and maybe main. And if you have a drop in your main (T or P) you don't need to send your entire army to deal with it and keep clearing the rocks. Non-issue No one likes scrap station because of the double-sized main ramp and akward natural placement. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:18 SiskosGoatee wrote: ... there's a reason no one likes scrap station. Even though it's very unique. Take a look at Scrap Station again: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c7/Scrap_Station.jpg) It has a double width main ramp without any rocks blocking, a very far away and vulnerable natural, totally unreasonable thirds that are directly in the middle of the map next to the middle watchtower and super close to each other, an unblocked island right next to the main, a super out of the way gold base (ZvP) and horrible space management. One of these or a combination of them could be the reason why people disliked it, and not necessarily the close air. Personally I can imagine the close air, double ramp, unblocked island, hard natural and out of your way gold bases somehow working out on a map, so I'm not saying these are terrible things by themselves. However Scrap Station did it wrong. Now about this map. I think it suffers from the same issue that all playable 4p mirrored maps so far had, and that is too many bases that are too easy. On the bright side I think the different spawning possibilities work equally well and the map split is taken to such an extreme that it's actually interesting because you can't 1a around, you really have to be smart about splitting up, harrassing and using air properly. I hate it when killing rocks significantly reduces push distances and this map is no exception. | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:50 Superouman wrote: It's still a position through which Z can never hope to properly engage P until hive tech and maybe not even then. If you just properly observe where his army is it is very easy to stop him from crossing the map, that aside, , you can just leave a sentry there, wall it off with a gateway+cannon wall. It's just space, crucial space, that P and T can easily control, but Z cannot.- The middle bridges are... in the middle which means the army has to be very far away from the base and the third and there is no way a protoss can sit there when rocks are still up because he has a too small army. And if you already have a large army, you are so out of position when the rocks are taken down, you easily lose your third. What you are saying for pvt doesn't work, they have no way to hold position against chargelots because they are not alone, there are very often collosi and then you will need to stutter step anyways. MMM will be able to range bunched up zealots out of reach of colossi unless the colossi are in the choke themselves, in any case, vikings will be easily able to range them down if P tries to cross it against T.Of course, if T tries to cross it against P, with colossi out, it will be just as difficult. It's just a very cramped space which you almost have to get through unless you want to take a really long way around which is just asking for troubles. T and P have too many ways to control spaces like that, against each other and against Z. It's just a very tight choke, close together, where neither player wants to run into the other player's concave, you can easily reposition yourself leading to an awkward stalemate unless you move way out of position which effectively gives up that position allowing the other player to cross it and arrive in your base sooner. And if by some reason you are right about pvt in the middle, that means this maps is the first map ever to fix lategame pvt hurray! Non-issue There is no lategame PvT issue. David Kim has time and time again said that the data does not indicate this whatsoever. This is just some thing that Terrans with bad TvP have made up.- i agree that the map will be different in close air because of the natural position, but you can make more turrets than usually and be fine. keep in mind that your third is safer. For pvz, it's actually very easy for the protoss to attack and retreat with blink stalkers because of the natural cliff toward the middle. Concerning doom drops, the air distance is slightly longer than on metalopolis and i never heard this being an issue. Very small issue The difference with metalopolis is that the ground rush distance isn't extremely large in comparison too the air rush distance. Of T puts a couple of tanks at their natural to zone that area out one has to walk around even further.- You answer your own question, if you want to take a 4th, you already have a big army to destroy the rocks quickly and you use spore and spine crawlers in nat and maybe main. And if you have a drop in your main (T or P) you don't need to send your entire army to deal with it and keep clearing the rocks. Non-issue I beg to differ, there is to my knowledge no popular map currently where you have to break rocks to reasonably take a fourth. Many ZvP strategies which are quite standard rely on pressuring P's third with your entire army of 3 bases while you expand, this is basically not possible any more of you have to kill rocks to take a fourth. This is quite common in PvT and TvP as well as to a lesser extend ZvT.No one likes scrap station because of the double-sized main ramp and akward natural placement. True, this also contributes. | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
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Stackz
Portugal43 Posts
The close by air positions may put air units in the spot for Protoss since they dont use it so ofte.... Really curious how the bridges will work... put it on ESV Weekly plz | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
There's no rocks embarassing the Zergs that take a really fast 3rd like on Entombed Valley. There's no choke between the natural and the 3rd that would help the protoss cut reinforcement with force fields, like on Cloud Kingdom. These 2 maps aren't particularly fun to play imo but if you don't have basic features in the layout of the first 3 bases it will make games even less interesting. The main is too stretched so it's easy to hide 2 proxy gates or build a barracks or factory on the low ground and fly it up. It takes a long time without mining for a protoss to scout such cheeses. Same for proxy hatches. The middle of the map looks gimmicky and easy to exploit. There's no practical way to flank. 1 or 2 fungal growths or line of force field and the whole army is stopped. It will create very 1 dimensional fights. But it's not that important because in actual games fights happen where bases are, not in the middle of the map. That's why you should focus more on how bases are laid out rather than making a cute middle. I don't think having naturals close by air is an interesting concept, races don't have the same power with air. Mutas are strong and terrans will have Banshees and drops. Protoss on the other hand only have phoenix against zerg and protoss but the window you can use them doesn't last very long. I think the basic idea of having something closer by air unfavors protoss. Overall I think the map doesn't help Protoss. The map name sounds like Chernobyl. It's risky to give your map the short name of a disaster. And in my opinion the map is ugly. Maybe it's just the photoshop filters you applied but there's a redish film on the picture. And there's no palette in the texture colors you used. Red and green don't match together because they're opposite colors. edit: don't believe late game PvT needs to be fixed because it doesn't. Terrans have a counter to HT (ghosts) and to colossus (Vikings). It's just a matter of scouting and finding the right mix of units. Unlike PvZ for example where there's no practical counter to mutas by the time they attack. The protoss needs a bit of everything, stalkers, canons, phoenix and later HT with storms but there's no hard counter by the time they pop. | ||
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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
Another thing I noticed is you like to make foggy maps. But I think that extra foggy maps like this is bad for both spectators and players. It is like watching the game behind a curtain with %85 opacity. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
I don't think having naturals close by air is an interesting concept, races don't have the same power with air. Mutas are strong and terrans will have Banshees and drops. Protoss on the other hand only have phoenix against zerg and protoss but the window you can use them doesn't last very long. I think the basic idea of having something closer by air unfavors protoss. Overall I think the map doesn't help Protoss. edit: don't believe late game PvT needs to be fixed because it doesn't. Terrans have a counter to HT (ghosts) and to colossus (Vikings). It's just a matter of scouting and finding the right mix of units. Unlike PvZ for example where there's no practical counter to mutas by the time they attack. The protoss needs a bit of everything, stalkers, canons, phoenix and later HT with storms but there's no hard counter by the time they pop. This kind of sounds like P balance whine in disguise though honestly. P also has the counter to mutas, a very hard one at that, but the game isn't that simplistic at all, there's far more that comes into play. Such as that P can in general mass up more templar than T can make ghosts because the core of your PvT army will be very zealot heavy and P is in general capable of out expanding T for that gas income. But then again, templar are extremely slow and in general are basically ranged banelings and seldom retreat from a battle, storm also is a hefty tech investment while you can emp straight out of the ghost academy which itself is 50 gas away from a barracks opposed to the 500 gas required to tech to storm from a gateway. The game isn't that simple and there are no hard rules. Even the smallest of things such that ghosts have an attack which stops them from headbutting armies the way templar and infestors do contributes to balance in the end. That said, I would agree that my gut says that it's not a P map if they spawn close air to Z or T, but it's definitely not a Z map if they spawn cross to P. The standard ZvP of pressuring the third of P with roaches while taking a fourth is not executable on this map and the chokes will drastically favour protoss until infestor of broodlord tech is out. On June 16 2012 01:04 Laserist wrote: "Interracial guilt feeling to Zergs." as a leftover from when Zerg was legitimately underpowered; however the game is quite balanced right now and I think it sometimes goes to far. Make a good Terran map with a lot of abusive bunker spots and chokes; people scream high and low that the map is anti-Zerg, but if you create a super huge wide open map where Terran has massive troubles against Zerg—people seem to more accepting.Could you explain why there is always an awesome place to put overlords and let zergs watch the natural all day? | ||
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ChaosRefined
United States52 Posts
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ragz_gt
9172 Posts
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
On June 16 2012 03:56 ragz_gt wrote: Mmm... it seems to be very T favored. PF at 4th base would force funnel opponents to engage there pretty much. it seems for opposite side spawn, exp into middle and the other base's natural would be extremely powerful and easy to defend. He is just trying to balance through mapdesign  | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
Also the air distance is really really short. For a terran, if you scout after the depot you can build 2 barracks in your base and if you scout the protoss close by air you can fly the barracks in his main and make marines before he gets enough defense. Even if it's scouted I don't think you can defend. And there's always the option to fly one rax here and 1 rax there, or to make the proxy rax in his natural and fly it since there's so much surface to scout. If he's not at the close by air position you can just do a 1 rax expand as usual. | ||
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monitor
United States2404 Posts
On June 15 2012 23:45 Aunvilgod wrote: Btw, you are still on ESV, yes? TO CLARIFY- Yes he is still on the ESV team, as well as the rest of the members. We just have a new system that requires 15 testing steps + 10 test game replays of a map before it is publishing on TL or Battle.net as ESV. So expect the same number of maps and then fewer ESV maps for the time being. | ||
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GDR
Canada407 Posts
 I like the map a lot, but the middle bridges look maybe a bit narrow? I might just be a bit decived by the picture though. | ||
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