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Cherno
Published on NA, EU
By SUPEROUMAN
V 1.0
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WEl7v.jpg)
60 degree picture
Introduction
Cherno is the short name of Chernogorsk which is a city in Russia and also a city in DayZ mod in ArmA2
I had this idea of close air natural some days ago and i wanted to keep it viable for close positions. I put rocks in the corner ramps to delay the time where armies will be able to engage in that area. There is a fissure in the middle to make natural close position distance longer and two bridges to pass it in key areas. Tanks can't hit natural's minerals from the lowground.
The decoration is a mix of all known styles and aethetic innovations: Square artificial cliff pattern, korean cliff pattern in the middle, my own style of using pathing/sight/creep blockers instead of cliffs in top left and bottom right corners, LSPrime's extended Braxis Alpha manmade cliffs using pillars, ESV_Jacky's extended natural cliffs and the very brand new and perfect way to make bridges invented by ESV_Timetwister just some days ago, all credits to him for the idea. Check the last picture in the "Aesthetics" spoiler.
The four colors and logos in the mains, naturals and thirds symbolize the 4 elements (Fire, water, earth, air) just for the lulz
Playable bounds: 156x156
All spawn locations enabled
Xel'Naga towers: 0
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SHOOTING IN CHERNO!!!????
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Any friendlies in cherno? I'm approaching from the north, I think...
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looks gooD! Especially for 2v2.
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As a protoss, I think the middle chokes are going to be really easily abuse-able with forcefields.
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Lol Cherno, gotta try this one.
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Australia822 Posts
With all your powers combined, CAPTAIN PLANET!!!
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Clever bridges. Reminds me of the bridges I made a couple weeks ago... :p
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Wow, really awesome map. Seems like air play is the way to go on this map, which is fun.
I'm only wondering why you decided to make the middle bridges so small.
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I did a long game on it! I liked the design and pretty! Very good! Used v1.2 on NA
NAT is impossible to wall  , but I don't care I play zerg 
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Hahaha why do you make only trollmaps?
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I really like this map , particularly the bridges on the middle !
Is this a troll map or do you plan to develop it ? I would love to see it in a tournament ! ( or maybe on the ladder who knows )
I feel like this map has a strong personnality that a lot of maps are lacking these days
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This is not a troll map, it's very serious T.T
To everyone playing the map, i'm going to make a replay section in the map thread so please send me the replays if you want to.
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On June 15 2012 19:34 Superouman wrote:
This is not a troll map, it's very serious T.T
To everyone playing the map, i'm going to make a replay section in the map thread so please send me the replays if you want to.
I'll do it asap !! I love this one + with the close position which is very rare
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On June 15 2012 19:34 Superouman wrote:
This is not a troll map, it's very serious T.T
To everyone playing the map, i'm going to make a replay section in the map thread so please send me the replays if you want to.
These aesthetics are... not serious for a future battlefield. :D
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On June 15 2012 09:07 PandaZerg wrote:
looks gooD! Especially for 2v2.
You remembered me that i didn't do the team placement for 2v2, thx.
On June 15 2012 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 19:34 Superouman wrote:
This is not a troll map, it's very serious T.T
To everyone playing the map, i'm going to make a replay section in the map thread so please send me the replays if you want to. These aesthetics are... not serious for a future battlefield. :D
Do you want me to do a boring full bel'shir deco?
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On June 15 2012 19:51 Superouman wrote:You remembered me that i didn't do the team placement for 2v2, thx. Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:On June 15 2012 19:34 Superouman wrote:
This is not a troll map, it's very serious T.T
To everyone playing the map, i'm going to make a replay section in the map thread so please send me the replays if you want to. These aesthetics are... not serious for a future battlefield. :D Do you want me to do a boring full bel'shir deco?
I don´t want you to do anything. Love your map, I was just pointing out that it has funny decals.
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Ah okay cool 
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Will this map appear in the Korean Weekly? It looks very lovely, and it's great to hear that bridges have finally been worked out correctly.
Personally I feel that the lava running down the middle of the map looks dumb and out of place. I would recommend changing it to something else, such as perhaps water or even tar. The rest of the lava looks good though and should be left as is.
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I think the Aesthetics are amazing, what you do with the editor continues to blow my mind. Saying that however, I think the combination of grass and lava is odd and doesn't give a unified look, especially when coupled with decals. I personally would be tempted to go down the 'industrial lava factory' feel. Dry out the grass, give the whole map a bit more of a worn feel to it, because right now the juxtaposition of the lava with the luscious foliage does not sit well.
As for the layout, some really interesting ideas going on here which is great from a map making perspective. I'm not a high level player so I can't really comment on balance but as a zerg I would be very scared of close by air double stargate.
Care to share Timetwister's bridge strat or is it an ESV secret? I definitely see bridges playing a larger role in future maps.
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Concerning double stargate close air positions, i think it wouldn't be that hard to scout it since you have 1 overlord on the ovi spot in the natural, one overlord behind natural minerals, one overlord next to the main. You sacrifice both of them at the same time and you have pretty much vision of all of his base.
About the deco, think that the chlorophyll-based life on this planet adapted to higher temperatures and toxic gases and it's fine :>
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Ah yes, I was forgetting about those lava-resistant plants. Silly me
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I'm honestly not sure how this map can not turn out to be a balance disaster at some point:
- Before the rocks are broken, the only parts separating the two halves are those tiny bridges, which are relatively close together. it is supremely easy for T and P to wall and/or control this against Zerg in some way, there's just no way for Zerg to cross them map before taking out the rocks or getting brood lords if T or P doesn't want them to. Similar problems will no doubt arise in PVT, imagine chargelots having to go through that choke into a bio concave, it'll be disastrous.
- The air rush distance of close by air compared to the ground distance is extremely skewed. Drops or mass muta will be extremely powerful. I forsee this map being hugely Z favoured in ZvT if you spawn close by air (as mutas counter drops) and hugely T favoured in any other spawn due to the chokes. In TvP, you can basically see him move out, load up a doom drop, kill whatever he has and then load back up to defend your main if you spawn there, mass muta against Protoss would be extremely potent because both the natural and the main are very easily exposed by this air path.
- On the flipside, where will Z take a fourth if you spawn close by air? They have to break rocks down to do, rocks which are very far away and leave your main undefended, they either have to do that, or expand to the other side of the map, or to a place which seems siegable from their opponent's natural.
It's a unique map for sure, but I feel there are a reason certain formations are standard, because they've shown to work. The early days of SC2 were full of unique and diverse maps made by Blizzard, the maps that are now viewed as 'standard' are only standard because their formula has been shown to work in the context of sc2. Having an air rush distance that is so much shorter than a ground rush distance just doesn't work in practice, there's a reason no one likes scrap station. Even though it's very unique.
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all spawns possible? looks nice.
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- The middle bridges are... in the middle which means the army has to be very far away from the base and the third and there is no way a protoss can sit there when rocks are still up because he has a too small army. And if you already have a large army, you are so out of position when the rocks are taken down, you easily lose your third. What you are saying for pvt doesn't work, they have no way to hold position against chargelots because they are not alone, there are very often collosi and then you will need to stutter step anyways. And if by some reason you are right about pvt in the middle, that means this maps is the first map ever to fix lategame pvt hurray! Non-issue
- i agree that the map will be different in close air because of the natural position, but you can make more turrets than usually and be fine. keep in mind that your third is safer. For pvz, it's actually very easy for the protoss to attack and retreat with blink stalkers because of the natural cliff toward the middle. Concerning doom drops, the air distance is slightly longer than on metalopolis and i never heard this being an issue. Very small issue
- You answer your own question, if you want to take a 4th, you already have a big army to destroy the rocks quickly and you use spore and spine crawlers in nat and maybe main. And if you have a drop in your main (T or P) you don't need to send your entire army to deal with it and keep clearing the rocks. Non-issue
No one likes scrap station because of the double-sized main ramp and akward natural placement.
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On June 15 2012 22:18 SiskosGoatee wrote:
... there's a reason no one likes scrap station. Even though it's very unique.
Take a look at Scrap Station again:
+ Show Spoiler +
It has a double width main ramp without any rocks blocking, a very far away and vulnerable natural, totally unreasonable thirds that are directly in the middle of the map next to the middle watchtower and super close to each other, an unblocked island right next to the main, a super out of the way gold base (ZvP) and horrible space management.
One of these or a combination of them could be the reason why people disliked it, and not necessarily the close air.
Personally I can imagine the close air, double ramp, unblocked island, hard natural and out of your way gold bases somehow working out on a map, so I'm not saying these are terrible things by themselves. However Scrap Station did it wrong.
Now about this map. I think it suffers from the same issue that all playable 4p mirrored maps so far had, and that is too many bases that are too easy.
On the bright side I think the different spawning possibilities work equally well and the map split is taken to such an extreme that it's actually interesting because you can't 1a around, you really have to be smart about splitting up, harrassing and using air properly.
I hate it when killing rocks significantly reduces push distances and this map is no exception.
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The corner expand area isn't final, it's the only part i am not 100% satisfied with it, i'm thinking about reducing the width of the ramp and enlarging the highground behind it
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On June 15 2012 22:50 Superouman wrote:
- The middle bridges are... in the middle which means the army has to be very far away from the base and the third and there is no way a protoss can sit there when rocks are still up because he has a too small army. And if you already have a large army, you are so out of position when the rocks are taken down, you easily lose your third. It's still a position through which Z can never hope to properly engage P until hive tech and maybe not even then. If you just properly observe where his army is it is very easy to stop him from crossing the map, that aside, , you can just leave a sentry there, wall it off with a gateway+cannon wall. It's just space, crucial space, that P and T can easily control, but Z cannot.
What you are saying for pvt doesn't work, they have no way to hold position against chargelots because they are not alone, there are very often collosi and then you will need to stutter step anyways. MMM will be able to range bunched up zealots out of reach of colossi unless the colossi are in the choke themselves, in any case, vikings will be easily able to range them down if P tries to cross it against T.
Of course, if T tries to cross it against P, with colossi out, it will be just as difficult. It's just a very cramped space which you almost have to get through unless you want to take a really long way around which is just asking for troubles. T and P have too many ways to control spaces like that, against each other and against Z.
It's just a very tight choke, close together, where neither player wants to run into the other player's concave, you can easily reposition yourself leading to an awkward stalemate unless you move way out of position which effectively gives up that position allowing the other player to cross it and arrive in your base sooner.
And if by some reason you are right about pvt in the middle, that means this maps is the first map ever to fix lategame pvt hurray! Non-issue There is no lategame PvT issue. David Kim has time and time again said that the data does not indicate this whatsoever. This is just some thing that Terrans with bad TvP have made up.
- i agree that the map will be different in close air because of the natural position, but you can make more turrets than usually and be fine. keep in mind that your third is safer. For pvz, it's actually very easy for the protoss to attack and retreat with blink stalkers because of the natural cliff toward the middle. Concerning doom drops, the air distance is slightly longer than on metalopolis and i never heard this being an issue. Very small issue The difference with metalopolis is that the ground rush distance isn't extremely large in comparison too the air rush distance. Of T puts a couple of tanks at their natural to zone that area out one has to walk around even further.
- You answer your own question, if you want to take a 4th, you already have a big army to destroy the rocks quickly and you use spore and spine crawlers in nat and maybe main. And if you have a drop in your main (T or P) you don't need to send your entire army to deal with it and keep clearing the rocks. Non-issue I beg to differ, there is to my knowledge no popular map currently where you have to break rocks to reasonably take a fourth. Many ZvP strategies which are quite standard rely on pressuring P's third with your entire army of 3 bases while you expand, this is basically not possible any more of you have to kill rocks to take a fourth. This is quite common in PvT and TvP as well as to a lesser extend ZvT.
No one likes scrap station because of the double-sized main ramp and akward natural placement. True, this also contributes.
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Btw, you are still on ESV, yes?
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Love it.... not a standard map that I was so sick off....
The close by air positions may put air units in the spot for Protoss since they dont use it so ofte....
Really curious how the bridges will work... put it on ESV Weekly plz
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I don't see what would be interesting enough in this map to put it in a map pool. There are already many standard maps that don't have special features, and that don't force a meta-game. And people are also bored with the current maps that have features so imo the future is to make interesting maps rather than multiplying the same basic layout over and over.
There's no rocks embarassing the Zergs that take a really fast 3rd like on Entombed Valley. There's no choke between the natural and the 3rd that would help the protoss cut reinforcement with force fields, like on Cloud Kingdom. These 2 maps aren't particularly fun to play imo but if you don't have basic features in the layout of the first 3 bases it will make games even less interesting.
The main is too stretched so it's easy to hide 2 proxy gates or build a barracks or factory on the low ground and fly it up. It takes a long time without mining for a protoss to scout such cheeses. Same for proxy hatches.
The middle of the map looks gimmicky and easy to exploit. There's no practical way to flank. 1 or 2 fungal growths or line of force field and the whole army is stopped. It will create very 1 dimensional fights. But it's not that important because in actual games fights happen where bases are, not in the middle of the map. That's why you should focus more on how bases are laid out rather than making a cute middle.
I don't think having naturals close by air is an interesting concept, races don't have the same power with air. Mutas are strong and terrans will have Banshees and drops. Protoss on the other hand only have phoenix against zerg and protoss but the window you can use them doesn't last very long. I think the basic idea of having something closer by air unfavors protoss. Overall I think the map doesn't help Protoss.
The map name sounds like Chernobyl. It's risky to give your map the short name of a disaster.
And in my opinion the map is ugly. Maybe it's just the photoshop filters you applied but there's a redish film on the picture. And there's no palette in the texture colors you used. Red and green don't match together because they're opposite colors.
edit: don't believe late game PvT needs to be fixed because it doesn't. Terrans have a counter to HT (ghosts) and to colossus (Vikings). It's just a matter of scouting and finding the right mix of units. Unlike PvZ for example where there's no practical counter to mutas by the time they attack. The protoss needs a bit of everything, stalkers, canons, phoenix and later HT with storms but there's no hard counter by the time they pop.
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Could you explain why there is always an awesome place to put overlords and let zergs watch the natural all day?
Another thing I noticed is you like to make foggy maps. But I think that extra foggy maps like this is bad for both spectators and players. It is like watching the game behind a curtain with %85 opacity.
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I don't think having naturals close by air is an interesting concept, races don't have the same power with air. Mutas are strong and terrans will have Banshees and drops. Protoss on the other hand only have phoenix against zerg and protoss but the window you can use them doesn't last very long. I think the basic idea of having something closer by air unfavors protoss. Overall I think the map doesn't help Protoss.
edit: don't believe late game PvT needs to be fixed because it doesn't. Terrans have a counter to HT (ghosts) and to colossus (Vikings). It's just a matter of scouting and finding the right mix of units. Unlike PvZ for example where there's no practical counter to mutas by the time they attack. The protoss needs a bit of everything, stalkers, canons, phoenix and later HT with storms but there's no hard counter by the time they pop.
This kind of sounds like P balance whine in disguise though honestly. P also has the counter to mutas, a very hard one at that, but the game isn't that simplistic at all, there's far more that comes into play. Such as that P can in general mass up more templar than T can make ghosts because the core of your PvT army will be very zealot heavy and P is in general capable of out expanding T for that gas income. But then again, templar are extremely slow and in general are basically ranged banelings and seldom retreat from a battle, storm also is a hefty tech investment while you can emp straight out of the ghost academy which itself is 50 gas away from a barracks opposed to the 500 gas required to tech to storm from a gateway. The game isn't that simple and there are no hard rules. Even the smallest of things such that ghosts have an attack which stops them from headbutting armies the way templar and infestors do contributes to balance in the end.
That said, I would agree that my gut says that it's not a P map if they spawn close air to Z or T, but it's definitely not a Z map if they spawn cross to P. The standard ZvP of pressuring the third of P with roaches while taking a fourth is not executable on this map and the chokes will drastically favour protoss until infestor of broodlord tech is out.
On June 16 2012 01:04 Laserist wrote:
Could you explain why there is always an awesome place to put overlords and let zergs watch the natural all day? "Interracial guilt feeling to Zergs." as a leftover from when Zerg was legitimately underpowered; however the game is quite balanced right now and I think it sometimes goes to far. Make a good Terran map with a lot of abusive bunker spots and chokes; people scream high and low that the map is anti-Zerg, but if you create a super huge wide open map where Terran has massive troubles against Zerg—people seem to more accepting.
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I think the rocks to the corner bases should be taken off, and maybe put rocks on the base instead. As it stands, there are only two tight passages to get cross map, which could be easily abused by protoss or terran to hold zerg pushes. The lack of counter attack paths for spawns that aren't close by air is just generally concerning, it takes away the chance for a game to be exciting and turns it more into a turf war of establishing lines and holding the only two paths to your base. It looks really really well done though, and I love the aesthetics as usual!
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Mmm... it seems to be very T favored. PF at 4th base would force funnel opponents to engage there pretty much. it seems for opposite side spawn, exp into middle and the other base's natural would be extremely powerful and easy to defend.
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On June 16 2012 03:56 ragz_gt wrote:
Mmm... it seems to be very T favored. PF at 4th base would force funnel opponents to engage there pretty much. it seems for opposite side spawn, exp into middle and the other base's natural would be extremely powerful and easy to defend.
He is just trying to balance through mapdesign
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I tried the map and the neutral supply depot at the bottom right isn't placed like other ones.
Also the air distance is really really short. For a terran, if you scout after the depot you can build 2 barracks in your base and if you scout the protoss close by air you can fly the barracks in his main and make marines before he gets enough defense. Even if it's scouted I don't think you can defend. And there's always the option to fly one rax here and 1 rax there, or to make the proxy rax in his natural and fly it since there's so much surface to scout.
If he's not at the close by air position you can just do a 1 rax expand as usual.
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On June 15 2012 23:45 Aunvilgod wrote:
Btw, you are still on ESV, yes?
TO CLARIFY-
Yes he is still on the ESV team, as well as the rest of the members. We just have a new system that requires 15 testing steps + 10 test game replays of a map before it is publishing on TL or Battle.net as ESV. So expect the same number of maps and then fewer ESV maps for the time being.
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How cool would it be if you went all Dualsight on this map, and made each corner reflect the elements. You could name it Quadsight! 
I like the map a lot, but the middle bridges look maybe a bit narrow? I might just be a bit decived by the picture though.
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On June 16 2012 16:20 GDR wrote:How cool would it be if you went all Dualsight on this map, and made each corner reflect the elements. You could name it Quadsight! I like the map a lot, but the middle bridges look maybe a bit narrow? I might just be a bit decived by the picture though.
That would be really cool, but sadly there is no way you can utilize that many different textures on a single map.
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On June 16 2012 16:20 GDR wrote:How cool would it be if you went all Dualsight on this map, and made each corner reflect the elements. You could name it Quadsight! I like the map a lot, but the middle bridges look maybe a bit narrow? I might just be a bit decived by the picture though. Unlike WarCraft III, for some reason the editor only supports 8 textures in your blend and 3 cliff levels in total, I have no idea why because in WarCraft III it was infinite.
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Edited the corner expands, i moved the ramp, enlarged the highground area and now the rocks are unnecessary
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Close air naturals huh? Don't think we can have close air anything in HotS if the tempest stays like it is....
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On June 16 2012 22:44 MichaelDonovan wrote:
Close air naturals huh? Don't think we can have close air anything in HotS if the tempest stays like it is....
hopefully we are still in WoL so that doesn't matter
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Australia822 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:37 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 16:20 GDR wrote:How cool would it be if you went all Dualsight on this map, and made each corner reflect the elements. You could name it Quadsight! I like the map a lot, but the middle bridges look maybe a bit narrow? I might just be a bit decived by the picture though. Unlike WarCraft III, for some reason the editor only supports 8 textures in your blend and 3 cliff levels in total, I have no idea why because in WarCraft III it was infinite.
Challenge accepted.
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This looks good. Gonna have to try it out.
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The artwork is nothing short of amazing! Great job!
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Seems like the third might be a bit easy to defend, only two attack paths, one from the natural that could easily be walled off. Other than that, an excellent map. Nice job.
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I enlarged the two middle bridges by one forcefield size and added two small bridges on the edges to give more possibilities of paths, this makes close position distance shorter but it's still fine (114) and it makes the lowground area at the bottom of nat and third ramp more attractive to place your army.
I removed a lot of the fog too, i didn't realize how thick it was.
I'll change map analyzer pictures later.
Oh and i added many replays in the op post, they are not top level of play but they can show some features of the map. Note that some of the replays are on older version of the map (2 middle bridges, rocks on corner expands)
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Marauder hellion timing in close positions is going to be brutal with the new bridge. You could probably think of other examples. But I think that's okay, players will just have to be less risky in close positions.
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Least you shortened the name this time.
Mains look really awkwardly spaced. It looks hard to fit buildings around in there. Mostly the 9 and 3 bases for Terran. I might be wrong on this since I haven't actually played it and I'm just guessing by the pic.
At the top left and bottom right, I think you should connect the two high ground areas.
Looks really good. Keep up the good work.
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Why does the green third not have a lollipop handle?
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There are some defensive features around the natural to defend or delay attack so i think it would be fine. Note that nat to nat distance isn't that short in close positions. (111, not 114 like i previously stated)
The size of the main is large enough 36CC to fill it with many buildings
I won't connect the highground in the corners because it will make third to third distance too short.
Minor update:
- Added unpathable level 1 terrain between naturals to limit the fps drops in these areas.
- Added new map analyzer pictures.
- Added some aethetics pictures with the newest version
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Hey great work Superouman, you already have a solid rep on the forums, and your CK is one of the most played maps
Undoubtably you've rightfully earned your rep, and you keep making awesome layouts and Aesthetics.
I borrowed some of your layout ideas on minerals from CK, hope you dont mind.
I was thinking about one thing on this map, is it intentionally that the middle 4th is this exposed to the nat?
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On June 15 2012 21:01 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 19:51 Superouman wrote:On June 15 2012 09:07 PandaZerg wrote:
looks gooD! Especially for 2v2. You remembered me that i didn't do the team placement for 2v2, thx. On June 15 2012 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:On June 15 2012 19:34 Superouman wrote:
This is not a troll map, it's very serious T.T
To everyone playing the map, i'm going to make a replay section in the map thread so please send me the replays if you want to. These aesthetics are... not serious for a future battlefield. :D Do you want me to do a boring full bel'shir deco? I don´t want you to do anything. Love your map, I was just pointing out that it has funny decals.
Read this as Bel'shir Disco.
...goddammit, this needs to happen.
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On June 17 2012 16:39 eTcetRa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:37 SiskosGoatee wrote:On June 16 2012 16:20 GDR wrote:How cool would it be if you went all Dualsight on this map, and made each corner reflect the elements. You could name it Quadsight! I like the map a lot, but the middle bridges look maybe a bit narrow? I might just be a bit decived by the picture though. Unlike WarCraft III, for some reason the editor only supports 8 textures in your blend and 3 cliff levels in total, I have no idea why because in WarCraft III it was infinite. Challenge accepted.
Uhm maybe im stepping on someones toes here.. but.. from my knowledge, you can make a total of 5 cliff levels, depending on what level cliff you choose to start building from.
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On June 28 2012 00:00 Guardian85 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 16:39 eTcetRa wrote:On June 16 2012 20:37 SiskosGoatee wrote:On June 16 2012 16:20 GDR wrote:How cool would it be if you went all Dualsight on this map, and made each corner reflect the elements. You could name it Quadsight! I like the map a lot, but the middle bridges look maybe a bit narrow? I might just be a bit decived by the picture though. Unlike WarCraft III, for some reason the editor only supports 8 textures in your blend and 3 cliff levels in total, I have no idea why because in WarCraft III it was infinite. Challenge accepted. Uhm maybe im stepping on someones toes here.. but.. from my knowledge, you can make a total of 5 cliff levels, depending on what level cliff you choose to start building from.
I believe each cliff type can contain only 4, and the lowest one (at least on existing cliff types) is impassable.
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On June 27 2012 14:32 sob3k wrote:
Why does the green third not have a lollipop handle?
I asked him this a couple days ago on skype and he refused to give an explanation D: He just sat there quietly looking at me...
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On June 28 2012 00:19 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 14:32 sob3k wrote:
Why does the green third not have a lollipop handle? I asked him this a couple days ago on skype and he refused to give an explanation D: He just sat there quietly looking at me...
xD
I removed the stick so it doesn't look like the tree symbol next to the third
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Unlike WarCraft III, for some reason the editor only supports 8 textures in your blend and 3 cliff levels in total, I have no idea why because in WarCraft III it was infinite.
Uhm maybe im stepping on someones toes here.. but.. from my knowledge, you can make a total of 5 cliff levels, depending on what level cliff you choose to start building from.
I believe each cliff type can contain only 4, and the lowest one (at least on existing cliff types) is impassable.
Ok allow me to correct my self, there are only 4 different cliff "levels", but there are a total of 5 different cliff heights.
And the lowest cliff "level" can still be passable using the Green layer, on pathing.
Painted pathing -> Add pathing -> Ground
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XnGK8.jpg)
And my apologies to Superouman, for having this discussion in his thread.
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If you're not connecting the high ground then I think you should at least open up the lowground bridge a bit more or add a secondary path. Otherwise, there's just too few attack paths between the bases.
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Hey Superouman, I just played your map a couple of times and I just have a few concerns/comments about the map.
-Is this zigzag areas behind the minerals in the main and third susceptible to a cannon rush like the cannon rush spot on Daybreak? I didn't actually try it, but I was just curious about it.
-I do feel that there needs to be at least a couple of watchtowers on the map, and I was thinking the best place to do that would be in the middle of the small bridges. But you would need to make the bridge bigger, but you could have tower in the middle and allow 2 small units (such as zealots or lings) to be able to use it as a choke. I believe that this would allow for better reactions to army movement towards the thirds and across the middle, and really reward players for having map control, while also allowing players to be sneaky and move around using the corner expos.
-I played my Terran friend, and afterwards we were talking about the map, and he brought up the point that mutas ZvT would be hard to defend as T because the area in the main is too long, and you would need alot of missile turrets to defend production buildings on that side. Would building all of your production facilities on the side of your main closest to your natural be a valid idea, or should the main be made just a bit smaller? Plus I feel that there are too many places to sneak a probe for cannons/proxy 2 gate/4g in the base, with such a large main.
Thanks for making a good map, and if you need/want the replays of my games (2), let me know! =)
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Could you explain why there is always an awesome place to put overlords and let zergs watch the natural all day?
Preach.
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On July 14 2012 08:39 Fatam wrote:Show nested quote +Could you explain why there is always an awesome place to put overlords and let zergs watch the natural all day? Preach.
Overlords spots have been standard in BW and most of the SC2 mapmakers try to include them in the maps too. Mostly because they encourage scouting and make the game easier to win if you're a better player. However with the recent changes, I know a lot of Terrans have been complaining that it makes pressure even more impossible than balance already makes it... so maybe something worth investigating.
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On July 15 2012 07:23 monitor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 08:39 Fatam wrote:Could you explain why there is always an awesome place to put overlords and let zergs watch the natural all day? Preach. Overlords spots have been standard in BW and most of the SC2 mapmakers try to include them in the maps too. Mostly because they encourage scouting and make the game easier to win if you're a better player. However with the recent changes, I know a lot of Terrans have been complaining that it makes pressure even more impossible than balance already makes it... so maybe something worth investigating.
I don't think this (changing the standard) is valid quite yet. Terran have shown in the past that they can hunt those early Ovies very easily and take them out. Watching a lot of games of terrans, you rarely see that anymore. It was popular for a few minutes when Daybreak and a couple other maps came out, but now it has seemingly disappeared. The terrans would either lift a building for a minute, have early marines in place before it gets there, or use a scan. I know it is not optimal, but that is part of the point of the game, to prevent your opponent from playing optimally. Now they just let them sit there and don't even seem to try to shoot them down. Once Starport tech is out though, then it should never be a concern I feel.
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It's a lot stronger vs. protoss than terran. Seeing gas timings/ how many gases at natural tells the zerg a ton. Also some maps (like daybreak iirc) have a highground spot inbetween both exits outside the natural.. if a probe goes by that overlord it's like oh gee I wonder if he's about to be aggressive? I get that daybreak is an older map but ever since the overlord+queen buff zergs really really don't need this.. and newer maps should probably reflect that. Then again that's just my opinion
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I've been obsessing over something ever since you made this map... HOW DID YOU MAKE THOSE SYMBOLS???
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On July 27 2012 09:45 ChaosRefined wrote:
I've been obsessing over something ever since you made this map... HOW DID YOU MAKE THOSE SYMBOLS???
Just decals, variations 3 and 4 with different sizes and then paint the inside with korhal dark concrete
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I yeah I forgot to tell you I played some games on it. The super large mains are pretty annoying vs drop play as it costs so much to defend from it properly. Also the close by ground spawn is a bit tricky to play as well. Skype me for reps
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On July 27 2012 16:21 Superouman wrote:
Just decals, variations 3 and 4 with different sizes and then paint the inside with korhal dark concrete
Decals? Sorry, I kind of suck at aesthetics..
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