EPT......
Except everyone seems to want to add that damn r in the name :'(
MotM May Results - Page 3
| Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games |
|
ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
...... Except everyone seems to want to add that damn r in the name :'( | ||
|
Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On June 01 2012 20:24 Meltage wrote: Hmm I remember a suggestion about the high ground pods shoudl be bigger. Was that it? I didn't see reason enought to change it when other feedback was that they were huge. I think basically making high ground more powerful can easily make tanks OP. If there were more suggestions/complaint about space management, please shoot  The point of comparing to Golden is lost to me, however as they are very different maps. They're very small in-game. I was just comparing the map to Golden for ranking's sake. They're of similar quality imo, but yes they're completely different maps. | ||
|
Gamma_
Canada6 Posts
| ||
|
RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
Thanks | ||
|
Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
| ||
|
Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On June 02 2012 01:15 Nightmarjoo wrote: They're very small in-game. I was just comparing the map to Golden for ranking's sake. They're of similar quality imo, but yes they're completely different maps. Yeah, you could say it's like comparing gold and silver. | ||
|
SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
Also, any extra feedback on Prophets Passage would be appreciated. So far it seems the only advice is to remove a base. | ||
|
RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
On June 02 2012 07:16 Nightmarjoo wrote: Its picture is really hard to look at. The map seems too small, tight, and cramped, with the expos too close together. Main and nat minerals are too close to the edge (making defending air harass difficult). You have a lot of wasted space (unuseable terrain) too. I don't really see what the map's concept is (I don't understand the point of the map: what makes it better or different than other maps?) I'd say work at getting standard sizes, shapes, and distances. Thanks for the feedback. It feels so much smaller as an 8m2g map than it did as 6m1hyg. The minerals close to the edge and all the dead space was purposeful to make air better, and all the chokes are to make smaller armies better (or large armies worse). This map was an exercise in forward chokes and trying to get you to split up your units, which worked quite well in 6m1hyg, but completely fails in 8m2g because everything just feels awkward. I'm going to try to make a few more classic maps (circle syndrome and all), and then come back to forward chokes | ||
|
monitor
United States2404 Posts
My gut impression is that this map is very nicely made and has wonderful aesthetics. The corner expos are really sweet, as well as the left/right center expansions. The potential problems I have with the map are that the third is hard to defend and the cluster of 4 bases in the center are too close. I love middle expos, but when there are 4 all very close, it makes me question the balance and gameplay. I'd rather see one of the bases removed and an area redesigned. I'm also not a big fan of your space management. The main and natural are very tight, but then there's a massive open space outside the natural. The third is really spacious too... yet the middle is tiny. I'd rather you make the expansion areas smaller and increase the size of the middle and other engagement areas. this is odd, but I don't really think you could take a fourth as Z or P -timetwister Auir Refuge Very cool ideas and well done with rotational symmetry. I just can't see this natural design working. The rush distance is really short once you break the rocks, so I don't think many games are going to get past the mid game. The natural is creative but... tanks, colossi, blink stalkers, mutalisks, etc. are just going to be too powerful imo. I can't see a solid balance coming from it, and I don't know if the gameplay will make up for it. My first instinct is "woah this is a nice well-made map"; my second is "oh god blink harass at the nat" - nightmarjoo Prophets Passage Again, this is a well made map.. but to be entirely honest, I don't like any of it except the fourth base. The inbase is kinda boring and doesn't do much in the way of improving the metagame imo. It kinda just encourages turtling. The 1gas expo is nice but again, it isn't very interesting and doesn't make any of the MUs very fun. The fourth is cool to me because you can mine the minerals to make it closer, and it also has a really nice vulnerability- the ramp is good for large attacks and the side path can be used for harassment. The middle expos are alright but I think they're too tight. And now that I think of it, I also think the entire map is too choked. The largest fighting areas on the highgrounds are kinda useless since that area is really only going to be used for moving armies, not engaging or containing. So imo better space management is needed - smaller highgrounds, larger open spaces like between the 1gas and the fourth. I'm not crazy about the map by any means, but it seems playable - nightmarjoo oZz Vaha Vaha doesn't really have any big problems I can speak of, but there are a couple aspects I dislike. Firstly the main is an okay size but the shape is really annoying for production buildings and scouting drops/nydus/etc. I do love the middle of the map Other than that.. its a cool map, I'm just not a big fan of the aesthetics and the layout, even though it is well done. Not sure about this whole "fixing rush distances" by adding rocks. Solid but boring - nightmarjoo | ||
|
Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
Silver Sands: The watch tower is pretty useless and the front is too easily wallable for terran. Aside from that, the 3rd's position is very interesting. I'm not sure about the faraway 4th and 5th on the sides and corner (not the middle 4th). They look really weak to harassments, especially the 5th which is located on the low ground. Basically if you get a 5th for that late game in PvZ for example while you have immobile infestor broodlord force, protoss will just crush it unless you make a ton of spine crawlers there and weaken your defend somewhere else. Basicly it encourages you to take only 4 bases maximum on that map and that's my biggest concern about it. Abode: I really don't think this map is good for protoss and terran, maybe I would even say it's terrible for protoss. While it's a very good map for zerg. This makes think it would make great imbalance in PvZ. Look at that 3rd, it's completly impossible to wall the path from the highground making it extremly vulnerable to roaches pushes, while you still have huge entrance to it near the natural (natural is wide too, hard for ffe). Basicly you won't be able to defend the 3rd against mass roach and you'll have to only 2 base all in each game while for zerg this openess only helps defending the all in because you need to use more forcefields. And even then zerg can all in you since natural is too wide open, and also plenty of space and hidden areas in the main for nydus, zerg can win this game easily with both macro or all in play against protoss on this map. Terran also has troubles on this map since there's no expansions going to the center, so it's hard for terran to advance more into the center. Golden Valley: Looks a bit boring, but a kinda well balanced macro map. Still very macro oriented and easy to get to 3 bases and that half base. Though the rotational symmetry makes a very interesting choices for your 5th+ base depending on the enemy's spawning locations. Basicly I would say this map will have a boring early game but an interesting late game. Unfortunate for terran in PvT huh? Also perhaps not that good for zerg who likes to be aggressive in mid game because of the chokes and easy to defend expansions. But still a well done map. Doomsday: Perhaps the map I liked the most of the maps. The interesting position of the 3rd makes it at the same time very easy to defend but also kinda hard to defend, very paradoxical no? In protoss versus zerg, it would basicly be easy to defend with a semiwall off and sentries, you can keep your army near the natural's entrance and when you see zerg attack use forecefields and semiwall to delay his attack and bring your army from natural to 3rd very quickly. However in PvT, drops at main and 3rd at same time will be extremly difficult to defend, but not balance breaking, very well done map again. I think it's well balanced for zerg and protoss, and could make some interesting PvZ matches. Also nice aesthetics. Dark Shrine: Somehow reminds me a bit of Atlantis Shipyard, the terrain is nicely colored, probably a way to make people like this map depite any imbalances it may have. It even makes not want to analyse it. But still let's see what this map has. Actually I don't have a lot to say about it, but both the 3rds on the left and on the right are a bit hard to defend because all of the wideness, not sure how it will look in actual play. The low ground "island" expansion is also an interesting concept, but probably a bit terran favored since they can lift and plant a cc there early unlike other races, specially zerg who needs to invest a ton in order to transport a drone there for an expansion. | ||
|
monitor
United States2404 Posts
| ||
|
Namrufus
United States396 Posts
On June 03 2012 06:44 Adonminus wrote: Here's my opinions about the maps: [...] Abode: I really don't think this map is good for protoss and terran, maybe I would even say it's terrible for protoss. While it's a very good map for zerg. This makes think it would make great imbalance in PvZ. Look at that 3rd, it's completly impossible to wall the path from the highground making it extremly vulnerable to roaches pushes, while you still have huge entrance to it near the natural (natural is wide too, hard for ffe). Basicly you won't be able to defend the 3rd against mass roach and you'll have to only 2 base all in each game while for zerg this openess only helps defending the all in because you need to use more forcefields. And even then zerg can all in you since natural is too wide open, and also plenty of space and hidden areas in the main for nydus, zerg can win this game easily with both macro or all in play against protoss on this map. Terran also has troubles on this map since there's no expansions going to the center, so it's hard for terran to advance more into the center. [...] I would like to argue against the highlighted statements. The natural choke takes ~3 gateways to fully block. An FFE might look something like this: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I91pH.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zlu9B.jpg) The choke into the third facing the nat takes 3 forcefields or two gateways + one other building to block completely. This is about the width of a size 2 ramp. With the rock uncleared, It is possible to block on top of the highground ridge on the other side of the third with two gateways, like this: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9OvlC.jpg) -------------------------- that said, you may still be correct about everything, as there are as you say, more map features that might tend to favor zerg, (openness of the map as a whole, big mains, long flank paths etc). In any case, thanks for the feedback! it made me consider the map more carefully. edit: forgot to add pictures, wait a second...OK done @monitor: ooh, what is it?? | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On June 03 2012 09:09 monitor wrote: Btw guys there is going to be a special motm for june, coming very soon! I do look forward to this. On the topic of this MotM overall, I feel relative to the other competitions that this was a bit of a disaster. First off, ESV didn't participate. This is the first contributing factor I think which pops to mind, and the biggest. Before, when they had a map, finished or not, it ramped up the competition significantly, so the winner was almost always a spectacular map. Here in this MotM, we don't even have a winner, just a top 5, which says something about the overall quality of the entries I think. That said, I do feel Silver Sands in particular is probably the most deserving of a 1st place designation, as the other 4 were either significantly flawed in some way, or just boring in their execution I feel. Silver Sands walks the line between the two(interesting/balanced) best of all. Not to mention this would also extend TPW's reign over MotM, so it fits best of all I hope the guys at ESV see the difference between this month and the ones before, the difference is rather enormous. | ||
|
Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I've played real games on Auir Refuge, Golden Valley, and Silver Sands now. Auir might be too big ._> The 4th felt difficult to defend which is ironic since it's so proportionately nearby. I liked Golden Valley a lot, though my opponent did not. I like the idea of having to choose between taking an easier to secure/defend 6m1hyg expo or a much farther 8m2g base. I like having legimate expo location choice which is only slightly positionally resolved. The pathing seemed nice to me too. I think I played on Silver Sands wrong, but in the game it seemed absolutely impossible to secure a 4th against zerg. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On June 03 2012 13:39 Nightmarjoo wrote: I'm of the opinion that there were more decent quality maps made this month than in previous months, but just that there was no one map that really stood out as being the obvious best one. While that may seem desireable, it mostly means the best maps didn't have enough to distinguish themselves by. I dunno what all the fuss about ESV is anyway, their maps aren't that good on average. Maybe it's because they've been rushing them, but I've seen plenty of TPW and nonteam maps of higher quality in these competitions. I've played real games on Auir Refuge, Golden Valley, and Silver Sands now. Auir might be too big ._> The 4th felt difficult to defend which is ironic since it's so proportionately nearby. I liked Golden Valley a lot, though my opponent did not. I like the idea of having to choose between taking an easier to secure/defend 6m1hyg expo or a much farther 8m2g base. I like having legimate expo location choice which is only slightly positionally resolved. The pathing seemed nice to me too. I think I played on Silver Sands wrong, but in the game it seemed absolutely impossible to secure a 4th against zerg. Interesting, on both points. I'm not saying that ESV dominated MotM by any means, which when I think about it is slightly odd, but they did add a lot of interesting competition. That, and occasionally seeing something from Superouman or Timetwister is slightly scary. I do hope that they continue to enter MotM, but I also hope that, if they do, they don't rush their maps out, as has been said many times before. I think the competition would be a lot more intense if they put out their best work more consistently. Also, I know I'm slightly late on this, but can I get some feedback, of what the judges thought about VR? | ||
|
Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
The map isn't bad, just seems a little messy (and without really adding anything to mapping/gameplay). If you don't like my suggestions or if it turns out that they don't work as well as I imagine or if you don't like the end result, I recommend just thinking about what your favourite aspects of the map's layout or concept are and just reusing them in a new map. | ||
|
Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On June 03 2012 13:39 Nightmarjoo wrote: I liked Golden Valley a lot, though my opponent did not. I like the idea of having to choose between taking an easier to secure/defend 6m1hyg expo or a much farther 8m2g base. I like having legimate expo location choice which is only slightly positionally resolved. The pathing seemed nice to me too. Any reason your opponent didn't like it? Did he say anything else? Like it's too hard for the race he was playing, or just felt uncomfortable somehow? | ||
|
Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
| ||
|
Meltage
Germany613 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337703 IPL will feature a show on tuesday (every tuesday ? ) named Cartographer that will be about community melee maps. It's likely that some of the final five will make appearance in the show. It's also likely there will be games played on one or tow of the maps by some IPL-attached pro gamers. Don't take my word for it though. Can anyone confirm this/give more info? | ||
|
Gfire
United States1699 Posts
On June 04 2012 16:44 Meltage wrote: Check this out: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337703 IPL will feature a show on tuesday (every tuesday ? ) named Cartographer that will be about community melee maps. It's likely that some of the final five will make appearance in the show. It's also likely there will be games played on one or tow of the maps by some IPL-attached pro gamers. Don't take my word for it though. Can anyone confirm this/give more info? Yeah, I saw one of them live. I think they've had 3 episodes so far... But I only found one vod on their youtube. That was the latest one, about Whirlwind. I saw some of another episode live where Axslav and Pokebunny played on and discussed Tanzanite. But I found the other vods at twitch. Episode 1: Azura Bridge Episode 2: ESV Tanzanite Episode 3: Crux Whirlwind | ||
| ||
